Expected accuracy out of 40x at 100yards?

[Ruslow]

curious to know what type of accuracy I can expect out of my 40x at 100 yards. I do knwo that ammo is super important or atleast in this one. I have tried several cheaper brands, And some shoot way better. but would like to know what the rest of you are getting for accuracy. So I atleast have a focal point to work towards. thanks Stan

 

[buffalowinter]

You should get a minimum of 1 inch at 100 yds , in calm conditions, using a top grade match ammo such as Eley Tenex or RWS R50. In other words, you should be able to keep 10 shots inside the x-ring of the A-25 NRA 100yd conventional prone target. Lesser ammo will widen drastically.

 

[RTH1800]

The 1" at 100 yards for a 10 shot group is the standard. If you cannot get that something is wrong. At times you will likely do much better. I have some 10 shot groups in the .2-3 's from my Winchester 52's and 40X Remington rifles. Need the right conditions, right ammo and a little luck.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Stan,

With all due respect to the above posts and the gentlemen that contributed;

I documented 4 bricks of RWS R-50 all of the same lot (2,000 rounds) that my rifle likes shooting 5-round groups to get past the "if I do my part, if the conditions are right, all day long" cliches.. Rifle is a 1964 US Stamped 40XB (Heavy Barrel) in an Accuracy International chassis with a 5-15x Burris Elite Tactical and shot off a Parker Hale bipod and a mixture of from the shoulder or a bag or rear support on a concrete bench.

Some days I had the some of the .2-.3" mentioned above; some days over 2". I ended up with an average of 1.07" at 100 yards over the course of 5 months in varying weather/wind. Some days results would show the differences in the weather and my attitude (and sometimes the amount of Jim Beam from the night before).

To say that 1" is standard is great to set as a par score; but not every 40X or every shooter is going to be able to accomplish that goal day in and day out. Current custom centerfires are now regularly shooting in the .5' range thanks to the developments in technology and precision in manufacturing. But that is relatively new to becoming a "normal" thing. The hoped for standard for a centerfire was 1 MOA for a long time before that.

Expecting "all-day" Sub-MOA at 100 out of a 50 year old rimfire with a stock barrel isn't fair to you or the rifle. Are some (and I may dare to say, most) 40X(s) capable of this, yes. This is a testament to how phenomenal of a rifle that Remington put together before most of us here were born.

~ Rico

 

[flatland1]

I'll 2nd Rico's comment/opinion on the accuracy of a 40X, especially with a factory bbl. I've shot a CMP hvy bbl 40XB quite a bit from 100yds, both prone & off a bench, and although that was several years ago, I'm not sure I ever got a 1" 10-shot group at 100yds out of it. In fact, my Anschutz 1611 on its best day might not have ever shot that well, nor has a nearly NIB 2013/2011 I bought this winter. Most of my 22RF shooting over the past 6 months has been with Jelrod converted 722-style 40X & Stiller 2500XR repeaters with Benchmark & Krieger custom bbls that I chambered & installed. Granted, these were the first couple of 22RF bbls I've done, and I'm sure there are 'tricks of the trade' in working with 22RF bbls that I've yet to learn. Still, in testing quite a few lots of SK Std+, SK Rifle Match, Eley EPS, & Lapua Center-X, I have yet to find a brand, grade, or lot # that will consistently shoot sub-1" 10-shot groups at 100yds. Most of my shooting has been off a bipod w/rear bag, as I don't have a good solid bench. But what do I know - I'm a 65yr old fart with NRA Hi Master cards in XC, MR & LR prone, and Distinguished Rifleman Badge. Rimfire can be & often is a whole 'nuther can of worms...

 

[Mtndog05]

My limited experience with quality 22rf would suggest 1 moa at 100 yds is something to strive for. I can do it consistently from 50 yrds (1/2" groups) but not easily. 100 yd 10 shot groups under an inch nearly every time seems a little optimistic at best.

 

[TheBeard413]

I'm a southpaw. I had a Remington 40X that was right handed and I could only get 1 1/4" groups out of it prior to switching to a Left Hand bolt for my trainer I switched to a CZ 452 American in .17hmr. Shoots great out to 250yards. Which I have been consistently shooting 2" to 2 1/2" groups with it. It's currently at the smith getting pillar bedded, Timney trigger, and some DIP products (trigger guard, extra power spring, ext mag release). Hoping it will help shrink my 250yard groups to under 2". If that fails to give me the results I want, I will get a match grade Lelja Barrel next.

 

[RTH1800]

Interesting comments. My initial observation was based on using the best ammo you can find, a solid concrete bench, ideal wind and low mirage conditions a great optical sight of 30X or more. Basically dawn or dusk. I my experience Eley Tenex or Eley Match is normally the most accurate ammo. In other words, doing it without compromise. Most of the 52's and 40X's I have shot will keep their shots under 1" at 100 yards for 10 shots.

Throw in low power scopes, bipods, shaky benches, wind mirage and lesser ammo and it's a race to the bottom.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Actually, I tested mine extensively to find the ammo that was most consistent. I ran through several lots of Lapua Center X, Midas M, Midas +, Eley Black (Match), Tenex, Wolf MT, Federal GM Ultra Match, RWS R100 and R-50 before settling in on R-50 Lot #XXXXXX (I ain't telling). So no compromise there.

During ammo testing (which lasted the better part of 6 months due to availability); the rifle wore a Weaver T-36 with a 1/8" minute target dot shot out of a lead sled on a concrete bench. Once I found what the rifle liked, I swapped to the bipod and the Burris because this was supposed to be a trainer, not a benchrest gun. I needed mil-hashes and a larger field of view for varied distances, moving (or live) targets, etc.. I had the idea to keep track of groups for 2,000 rounds based on a conversation on the Hide a couple years back and I was more than satisfied/pleased with the results.

The conditions that you describe happen about 20 times a year and if I waited for perfect conditions that aligned with my schedule I would never get to shoot. But hey, different strokes... just sharing practical and documented results. YMMV

 

[flatland1]

I'm wishing I had access to a 100yd indoor range when it comes to testing different lots of ammo. We did have several very good days for 100yd shooting in March, but I was so busy trying to knock out a backlog of customers' jobs that I couldn't take advantage of every one of those days with good conditions. Time gets kinda critical when you're testing, as the dealer/distributor may run out of the lots you have to test before you can find out which one or ones shoot best in your rifle or rifles. That's when living within easy driving distance of the Lapua facility in Az. would be really great...

 

[RicosRevenge]

You and me both brother. The new Eley complex is about 3 hours away from me. But time sucks.

 

[TimK]

I get to shoot mine indoors at the US Olympic Training Center at 50meters and at a local club indoors to 100yards. It'll theoretically put 60 consecutive rounds into 3/8" at 50m. I say "theoretically" because the best I've ever managed is 58 out of 60. It's hard to concentrate that long! If we're talking 5 shot groups, it's probably good for 1/4" at 50m pretty consistently.

I haven't shot it much at 100 indoors, but the few times I have I've seen the expected doubling in group size with the odd crazy small group.

 

[prebancolt]

Wouldn't shooting at least 5 5-shot groups in a row help with reducing some of that fatigue and account for varying conditions?

 

[orkan]

Rico has the most sensible posts on this topic that I've seen posted to date. I have 3 anschutz 54.18's, 8 Rem 40X's in various configurations, 2 BSA martini's, 2 sako quads, and a gaggle of other unworthy 22lr's. I've owned and sold many many more. If I can consistently perform 1MOA or anywhere near it... then I'm very happy with my 22lr's off a bipod and rear bag. A bench setup with a quality single piece rest and a rifle setup for true benchrest complete a tuner and every trick in the book is capable of better. Yet even among some champions I know in smallbore benchrest, they can not consistently produce better than about 3/4MOA. Like Rico, I've spent tens of thousands of dollars lot testing ammo for specific rifles to ensure the very best ammo available has been found for it. Despite that, some rounds still go where they aren't suppose to. The ammo is only capable of so much. It isn't like centerfire.

I've shot lots of groups in the .1's off a bipod and rear bag at 50yds. I've shot quite a few in the 0's. I've shot countless in the .2's and .3's. Yet if I only had one shot with any of my best rifles at 50yds, and if I hit the target I would get $10,000 and if I missed I would have to pay $10,000.... I would not take the challenge unless the target were at least 3/4" at 50yds in average conditions. If the people claiming otherwise are just so much better than me, so be it. Yet thus far, no one has been able to consistently best me in person. It seems the very best shooters in the world exist on the internet. I've spent tens of thousands of dollars and countless hours trying to become as good as these internet shooters, but I just can't seem to do it.

Maybe I just don't have the hardware or the experience to be as good as the internet shooters. My friends that shoot benchrest complain to me that they just can't shoot as good as the internet shooters either, and one of them is a state champion ARA competitor. Here's about half the rimfire I shot in the month of march. I've shot considerably more this month so far.

Despite not being anywhere near as good as the internet shooters, I still have a lot of fun with rimfire. A lot of us do. https://forums.gunhive.com/topic/1269/2017-rimfire-challenge

 

[steve123]

My fear was burning through $$$$ worth of Lapua ammo trying to win a interent match, lol. Best I could do with my 1827F was an average of .8" at 100Y in good conditions so I conceded. Hard to beat the best internet shooters!

That's a pile of brass.

 

[orkan]

Steve, the easiest way to deal with "internet competitions" is to understand the ONLY targets that any reasonable uninterested party would ever believe, were ones that were shot in their presence which they witnessed themselves. So by very definition, any remotely intelligent person would not accept ANYONE's target score under any circumstances if they have not indeed witnessed it themselves. Thus all these internet competitions are completely foolish. More foolish still would be those that put any weight at all on the scores reported. The idea that it's only a few bad apples that would cheat if given the opportunity is also a myth. There have been extensive studies on lying/cheating... and anytime the risk of being caught is low, the vast majority of the human population will lie. It is less than 5% of the population that will not cheat or lie on something as trivial as an online competition. Combine with that the nature of most shooters, and you'll likely find far less than 5% which will not cheat or lie in some way or form. This used to get me upset, but that was only because I didn't research and understand the above facts. Once you realize the true nature of people and accept it for what it is rather than try to change it... you'll look at the "scores" being posted on the internet and do nothing but laugh.

The really sad thing is when those amazing internet shooters engage in misleading other shooters into thinking the kind of exceptional (and fake) performance they are claiming is normal and should be expected. It's unfortunate because the new guys being misdirected can get frustrated with themselves easily, and don't have the experience to know the guys misleading them are full of crap. The funny part is, the guys doing the misleading will defend their indefensible positions viciously, even though their own lack of experience prohibits them from understanding that they are claiming better performance than the best documented shooters in the entire world.

Pity and be patient with the new guys being misled.

Point and laugh at the supposed "veterans" doing the misleading.

 

[TimK]

The Eley guys are in town at the Olympic Training Center doing lot testing. My 40X goes in the jig today at 4PM. They're going to test for Edge only, I couldn't afford to buy a case of Tennex.

This should be extremely interesting. The action comes out of the chassis and gets mounted in whatever their fixture is, presumably removing all human error (though possibly introducing some machine error). The machine testing should tell me what the accuracy is at 50m. Next chance I get, I'll take it to the 100y indoor range and see how I stack up at both 50m and 100Y. I'll learn something, that's for certain.

 

[sandwarrior]

Those rifles are typically consistently sub-moa with quality ammo. When I say the rifle is capable of that, it depends on conditions and range for the shooter. The farther you stretch the shot, as noted above, the more variation you are going to see. Wind moves .22LR all over the place. It's a giant difference when shooting from a quality bench that fits you, to slung unsupported prone. Some even like to throw in there the rifle can't do it, because they can't do it standing/sitting/kneeling. That's the shooter, not the rifle.

I always have issues when someone says, "When you do your part." No, kidding. These are the guys that don't take the human and environmental factors out of testing their rifle, then say it's not good enough because they didn't do their part. When you test a rifle, you take the human and environmental factors out and see what it does. Those that understand that are the ones who take as much human factor out every shot they place. But, they know what their rifle will do when they shoot it.

 

[steve123]

Steve, the easiest way to deal with "internet competitions" is to understand the ONLY targets that any reasonable uninterested party would ever believe, were ones that were shot in their presence which they witnessed themselves. So by very definition, any remotely intelligent person would not accept ANYONE's target score under any circumstances if they have not indeed witnessed it themselves. Thus all these internet competitions are completely foolish. More foolish still would be those that put any weight at all on the scores reported. The idea that it's only a few bad apples that would cheat if given the opportunity is also a myth. There have been extensive studies on lying/cheating... and anytime the risk of being caught is low, the vast majority of the human population will lie. It is less than 5% of the population that will not cheat or lie on something as trivial as an online competition. Combine with that the nature of most shooters, and you'll likely find far less than 5% which will not cheat or lie in some way or form. This used to get me upset, but that was only because I didn't research and understand the above facts. Once you realize the true nature of people and accept it for what it is rather than try to change it... you'll look at the "scores" being posted on the internet and do nothing but laugh.

The really sad thing is when those amazing internet shooters engage in misleading other shooters into thinking the kind of exceptional (and fake) performance they are claiming is normal and should be expected. It's unfortunate because the new guys being misdirected can get frustrated with themselves easily, and don't have the experience to know the guys misleading them are full of crap. The funny part is, the guys doing the misleading will defend their indefensible positions viciously, even though their own lack of experience prohibits them from understanding that they are claiming better performance than the best documented shooters in the entire world.

Pity and be patient with the new guys being misled.

Point and laugh at the supposed "veterans" doing the misleading.

Yes I'm sure there is plenty of that going on. You mean like all those 1/4" all day long tactical rifles, when only the top BR shooters in the world can produce groups like that consistently with their 6PPC.

I remember one guy on the 6x5 with a $4000 custom BR 22, with a F-class bipod attached, that also used $20/50 Midas+ ammo, my money is on him! Nevertheless, I'm not the best shooter around, nor with the most accurate rifle, or the best luck either, so there's all that. Too be honest shooting groups doesn't excite me much anyway and I prefer a steel match over paper, and it's fun being with others enjoying the same passion. Also if I've not let myself down by making stupid mistakes (that's the biggy), shot my best though not won but still had a ton of fun, then I'm happy enough.

I don't know when the next time I can afford to buy a 5000 round case of $12 lot number tested 22 ammo so I'm holding onto this stuff like it's gold and saving it for future 22 tactical matches.

 

[justin amateur]

Until I started using my ballistic chronograph every trip to the range,
I had no clue if the vertical was me, the rifle, the wind or the ammunition.
But once I started recording muzzle velocities and poi relative to poa,
the pattern appears very quickly. Time of flight and gravity allows calculation
of the vertical spread. After a month of shooting various grades of standard velocity
and match 22lr, recording data and calculating, a basic rule of thumb can be derived.

At 50 yards 10 fps difference between 2 shots of subsonic ammo produces 7/100th inch of vertical spread.
At 100 yards that same 10 fps will show about 1/4 inch of vertical spread.
At 200 yards, 1 fps difference in mv between 2 shots equals 1/10th inch vertical spread.
At 300 yards 1 fps produces about 7/16ths inch of spread.

So if you have a box of CenterX and fire 50 rounds at 100 yards
with an ES of 56 fps for the box of 50, you could expect to see a total vertical of about 1.5 inches.
At 200 yards that same box of CenterX would show about 6 inches of vertical spread.
At 50 yards, about 1/2 inch.

Considering most of the match 22lr ammo I've tested shows between 30 and 40 fps ES
at 100 yards with a mechanically correct rifle and a solid setup, 3/4 inch to 1 inch groups is expected,
as long as wind doesn't interfere...get a run of very similar mv's on a good day, this happens

[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"https:\/\/lh3.googleusercontent.com\/lPca0eSIpQa8_mokdTtiI3HK-2726gjP4CfAMAMNgbZszfMyph_WIF_jHnqZwQsawmKWHDgYG1MJYw=w580-h440"}[/IMG2]

 

[orkan]

I can not subscribe to the argument the "rifles" being capable of consistently sub-moa either, as that argument does not withstand the mountains of data which have been cataloged by the eley or lapua test centers here in the united states or overseas... nor that of independent test tunnels here in the states. All test centers have elaborate fixtures which aims to eliminate human variables, leaving just the rifle and ammo.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-shots-at-50m-new-record-at-eley-test-center/

12.4mm is .488" and while the 50 meter testing range is actually 54yds, it still signifies a record. Record, as in, "best ever seen" 40rnd string from any rifle with any ammo ever tested in one of the most recognized rimfire testing facilities in the world. Just shy of 1MOA... best 40 shots ever recorded there.

Now here is a simple trend that I've been able to understand over the last few years regarding 22lr accuracy: The best rifles in the world, with the best ammunition in the world, inside a 50yd tunnel, with some of the best shooters in the world running the testing, can not produce a rifle/ammo combo which results in every bullet hole falling completely inside a .5" circle. Point in fact when you look at the data, it is extremely rare to have every round fall inside a .750" circle. You may be able to get a large number of rounds to fall desirably, but across 50 rounds it's rare to have them all land desirably.

When I consider the mountains of data collected by many accomplished shooters and testing entities as well as my own quest for finite rimfire accuracy, and compare it against the reported accuracy and precision claims of internet shooters, I'm met with only one conclusion: The only place rifles and/or people can consistently achieve sub-3/4MOA rimfire performance is on the internet.

All data collected by serious folks which I've ever seen supports that position. Notice the underlined word there, consistently. I'll define this so as not to Obviously there are some exceptional rifles, exceptional people, exceptional ammo, and exceptional conditions which may align in specific instances which would indicate otherwise. Yet those remain isolated events. Were it not so, we would have higher scores being shot in competition across all smallbore disciplines, and yet we don't.

I'm not sure that there's an amount of money I'd refuse to pay for a magazine fed 22LR which would be capable of landing every round within .250" at 50yds. I'd probably give up to $50,000 for that rifle... because Lord knows I've wasted more than that in search of one. I'd probably pay even more than that if I was able to shoot that rifle for a few days myself. I think I'd pay up to $50 a box for the ammo as well, if that's what it took.

Or maybe I'm all washed up. Maybe the data doesn't mean what I think it means? Maybe there's a conspiracy to keep me from buying these special rifles and ammo which can deliver this type of performance I've only witnessed on the internet? Maybe I'm just a terrible shooter with terrible equipment and terrible ammo? Yup... could certainly be. Maybe that is true.

Or... maybe, just maybe it could be that people like to make themselves look better than they are when there's no one standing next to them to keep them honest. Just maybe. Hey, everyone needs a hobby. Some people's hobby is shooting. Other people's hobby is bragging about shooting. I just wish I could drop all of my experiences as well as the experiences of every high-end rimfire shooter I know into every new guy's brain. It would be much harder for people to lead those new guys astray if that could happen.

Below is some typical performance from one of the best rifles I own. A 40X repeater. 5-shot groups @ 50yds. By the measure of the internet, I suck. In person, against other real live flesh-and-blood people... I seem to fair quite well.

For this guy right here however, I'm going to set my expectations as follows. I know that I'll be able to shot LOTS of .5-.7" groups. I know that I'll be able to shoot fewer .3-.5" groups and fewer still .2" groups. Yet if I shoot enough times, I'll be able to get some .0's and .1's... and I even can get a few of those to stack up back to back when things go right. Six, 8, and maybe even 10 or 20 five-shot groups in a row can turn out really really good and make me feel good about myself. The next time out, it likely won't be that way. I'll define my capabilities based on what I personally witness across years of experience, dozens of rifles, and tens of thousands of rounds per year. Not one rifle and one lucky session. I just feel better being completely honest about my capabilities I guess. ... even if that means I suck compared to other internet shooters.

 

[Hoser]

Now here is a simple trend that I've been able to understand over the last few years regarding 22lr accuracy: The best rifles in the world, with the best ammunition in the world, inside a 50yd tunnel, with some of the best shooters in the world running the testing, can not produce a rifle/ammo combo which results in every bullet hole falling completely inside a .5" circle. Point in fact when you look at the data, it is extremely rare to have every round fall inside a .750" circle. You may be able to get a large number of rounds to fall desirably, but across 50 rounds it's rare to have them all land desirably.

Here is a picture of 60 shots at 50 meters. I had fired 10-12 for sighters and all were 10.2 or better. Center to center of all 60 is under 1/2 inch.

Eley Team (Blue) EPS. Bi-pod and a rear bag. Aiming center of mass at a big black blob electronic target at the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs. And I have repeated it several times. In front of witnesses, one of them being a Gold Medal Winner and Olympic Hall of Fame member.

 

[orkan]

Congratulations. I'm sure the target presented is of great value to you.

 

[RicosRevenge]

Hey Greg, it was a conversation with you and gzeto (or however you spelled it) in 2009 here at the hide years ago that made me do that "test." So, thank you!

hoser, can you give us some specs on the rifle you used?

 

[JG26_Irish]

The last 40x that I shot was decades ago and it was toped with peep sights. Since I only shot it in position shooting matches, I did not have a bipod or a benchrest. I doubt that I ever shot a 1" group at 50y and never shot it at longer ranges. We competed outdoors and used relatively cheap Winchester super-x ammo at the time. So, on the capabilities of the 40x, I am not much help. They are still popular with the ARA/IR50/50 benchrest shooter crowd and most of the benchrest custom actions are copies with some tweaks of the 40x action.

12.4mm is .488" and while the 50 meter testing range is actually 54yds, it still signifies a record. Record, as in, "best ever seen" 40rnd string from any rifle with any ammo ever tested in one of the most recognized rimfire testing facilities in the world. Just shy of 1MOA... best 40 shots ever recorded there.

Is the record still the Blieker? I remember it from a few years back. Phenomenal. Still, something to consider is the slow velocity of 22lr match ammo makes the impacts of bbl harmonics a big variable that we can only partially control. We deal with that by swapping lots until the velocity of one lot matches up somewhat with the bbl in use that day and then if allowed use a tuner to dampen them further to help tighten the groups. Shooting a rifle in a vise eliminates all of the human error, but adds a new variable. By not allowing the rifle to move at all, it alters the way the recoil drives the assembly backwards. This may at times, make bbl harmonics worse, others better. It is a poorly understood issue (by me and others). It is however, a fact that most benchrest shooters use a one-piece, very heavy micromenter adjustable rest that allows the rifle full freedom to move to the rear when the trigger is pulled. They don't shoulder the rifle, and only touch off the trigger. It is more like shooting artillery than rifles. But, they claim?? that this helps to reduce the muzzle vibrations which alter the direction vector of the bullet as it leaves the muzzle. Those minute movements are one of those variables that begin to intrude as one starts eliminating all the others. I still think that it takes perfect conditions, or indoor range, and a good dollop of luck to really shoot several very small groups at 50y. Going out to 100y and it is exponentially harder. The wind variable (if you are outdoors like me) gets to be more of a factor. I rarely shoot groups of more than 5sh each. But going to 10 or more only makes them larger. I cannot count the number of tiny groups that I have shot of 3 or 4 shots only to be spoiled by one shot that strayed. These vary from ammo variance to my lack of concentration to the goober in the next bay shooting his 338 Lap, lol. Shoot enough though and at least on occasion, you may get those magical combinations of rifle, conditions, ammo and your own abilities to all come together to provide you with a great string. I will only add, that if you want to do that, be sure that you are shooting off of a solid rest. I have seen the difference between prone on the ground or a solid concrete table and about any wooden table that is not anchored into the ground and there is no comparison. That variable alone is enough to open up groups beyond your expectations. I am lucky that both of the ranges I frequent have good tables. The public range has wood but it is heavy and mounted on top of 6" steel pipes anchored by concrete in the ground. The private range is all concrete and they are SOLID. The only other option that is acceptable is the earth. Forget folding tables, picnic tables, Taking rest off of the hood of the truck. They all move too much. In all honesty I cannot shoot that well if I am shooting from a rest off my ruck, from an improvised rest, or even off a bipod unless I have a good solid rear support too. My technique has deteriorated over time and my ability to be steady is not what it was. But I have seen others who can. Keep all that in mind when attempting to shoot those tiny groups for the internet.

Irish

 

[TimK]

I was one of the witnesses the day Hoser shot that target. I've watched him clean a 60 shot match at least two other times I can remember. I've watched him shoot innumerable scores between 595-599. I've personally shot any number of 595-598's there (though have never quite managed to clean one, dammit).

As far as I can tell based on the size of the 10 ring (10.4mm) a perfect 600 must be, at worst, a centered group with a CTC measurement of 0.628". Of course, the group could be significantly smaller if all the shots are 10.1 or better.

I've seen enough 600's to say with confidence that 60 consecutive shots into a group of 5/8" measured center to center is completely within the capability of the 3 or 4 40X's I've seen at the OTC, mine included. I'd speculate that shrinking that number below the 1/2" Hoser shot is pretty damn difficult, meaning we are probably at the limit of the equipment and ammo.

So I think that agrees with Orkan's observation that it's rare to have all rounds fall completely within a 3/4" circle. I assume by "completely" that you are talking about an edge to edge group measurement, not CTC.

I tend to think in terms of CTC measurements, so to my way of thinking 1/2 moa is about the limit of what's possible by very skilled shooters (Hoser is a witch) shooting superb rifles with superb ammo.

 

[sandwarrior]

We always seem to digress on this issue about the difference between rifles and shooters. A rifle that was built with a very high degree of accuracy in mind is not the same as a shooter adding in human variables in a possibly changing environment that either can degrade the end result.

I stress again that with high grade ammo, the M40X can consistently shoot sub moa. It matters not that shooter doesn't perform up to par in his abilities or evaluating environmental conditions. The rifle was built and is capable of sub moa accuracy.

 

[Hoser]

hoser, can you give us some specs on the rifle you used?

It was shot with a Remington 40X, Lilja titebore 1-16 barrel, Tubb trigger, Shark 308 can, Accuracy International AICS stock, S&B scope and an old lot of magical Eley Blue. I wish I would have bought a pallet of it.

 

[Hoser]

I see lots and lots of different rifles shot by the most talented shooters in the world here at the Olympic Training Center.

In the hands of a talented shooter using lot matched ammo, most rifles will shoot well inside the International target 10 ring which is about 1 cm.

The current electronic targets used these days score with decimal points because the rifles/shooters are so accurate.

The top dogs in the sport will shoot 58-60 shots inside the 10 ring, with a coat/sling and iron sights. I cheat and shoot "F-Class" with a scope and rear bag.

A 40X with a factory barrel should be about a 1 to 1.5 minute rifle. Add in a custom barrel with a tight chamber and it will get better.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

So Hoser, those aren't 22 cal bullet holes, but electronic representative points of where the bullets landed. Is that down at the Broadmoor? Wife deserves a spa day down there....

 

[flatland1]

I finally managed to steal enough time from the farm to get some testing done on five different lots of Lapua Center-X this afternoon, shooting both my Stiller 2500XR/Krieger & 40X/Benchmark repeater. Conditions were really good when I started putting all my gear in the truck for the short drive out to my 100yd smallbore range, but as usual, by the time I'd dicked around & got everything ready to shoot, there were some little gusts coming across with varying velocity & from 3:00 to 5:00. I found one lot for each rifle that out-shot the other four, and one lot that shot acceptable out of both rifles. I haven't measured every one of the 10-shot groups I shot, but found a couple that were just barely under an inch, c-t-c. I will shoot groups occasionally when testing new lots of ammo, but it gets old in a hurry. My bench is a home-made folding one, which comes off pretty poorly when compared to the solid ones on the 1000yd firing line at CRC near Byers, Co. And the front bag of the old Hart rest I was using today is considerably wider than the forearms of either rifle's stock. So, I'm satisfied that I've found the lots that I need to order to shoot steel with - having confidence in the ammo you're shooting in a good 22RF rifle goes a long way in eliminating most of the worry I have when shooting fairly large targets out past 100yds, and that's all I was really after.

 

[Hoser]

So Hoser, those aren't 22 cal bullet holes, but electronic representative points of where the bullets landed. Is that down at the Broadmoor? Wife deserves a spa day down there....

Nope. They are a small point. The last shot, just left of center, represents the full bullet diameter. Shot #58 went wide right, scored a 10.2 although it looks like a 9 point something.

The Olympic Training Center is downtown.

 

[RicosRevenge]

I do hope the OP sees the last few posts by Hoser.(hint, I already knew he had a custom barreled 40X, just wanted the OP to see it)..

While Ruslow did not give us the specs of his rifle; my assumption is that it is a stock barrel 40X. If that is correct, I would concur with Hoser that with good ammo you can expect 1-1.5 MOA at 100 which is backed up by my data.

 

[Hoser]

I can not subscribe to the argument the "rifles" being capable of consistently sub-moa either, as that argument does not withstand the mountains of data which have been cataloged by the eley or lapua test centers here in the united states or overseas... nor that of independent test tunnels here in the states. All test centers have elaborate fixtures which aims to eliminate human variables, leaving just the rifle and ammo.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...-shots-at-50m-new-record-at-eley-test-center/

12.4mm is .488" and while the 50 meter testing range is actually 54yds, it still signifies a record. Record, as in, "best ever seen" 40rnd string from any rifle with any ammo ever tested in one of the most recognized rimfire testing facilities in the world. Just shy of 1MOA... best 40 shots ever recorded there.

You do realize that the test groups referenced link are measured outside to outside and not center to center? I am guessing no...

Center to center would be just over 1/4 inch or so. For 40 shots.

 

[orkan]

Yup, realized that later on. Someone beat you to it... Still, over 1/2moa... being the RECORD. ... it isn't as if what I'm saying has no merit.

 

[D_TROS]

Hoser...I don't need your dog hating drivel...lol get rid of the mm mumbo jumbo and shoot a 60 rnd group at 100. and do it before Sunday. you guys are off topic with this 50yd bs...


Ill see you at your match unless its snowing lol and winds under 20. that shoot was no fun. (even tho I still shoot 1/8" all day every day even when I don't do my part hahaha.)

Regards,
DT

 

[Hoser]

Hoser...I don't need your dog hating drivel...lol get rid of the mm mumbo jumbo and shoot a 60 rnd group at 100. and do it before Sunday. you guys are off topic with this 50yd bs...

Here is a five shot group at 200 meters, aka 219 yards. Will that do?

Before the Firecracker I will do a lot of 100 yard shooting.

See you Sunday. Should be a bunch of Elrod 40X conversions on the line. Guessing 6-7 of them.

 

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

DT, I don't think my son and I will make it down this time- but we missed you last week at the CRCI match. My son won again, with zero-help this time from me. He shot the 60 second string clean with I swear 15 seconds to spare.

 

[sandwarrior]

You know what Snoopy said when he got his doghouse/Sopwith Camel back on the ground? "Dem Fokkers vas Messerscmitts!". Charlie would never have believed it.

Anyhow, per the test results, the rifles are capable of moa or better. It is us that is the weak link.

 

[TimK]

In another thread I showed the data Eley got from lot testing Edge with my 40X. In the final analysis, it was shooting almost exactly 1minute in the test fixture.

I took it to our local indoor range last Friday and drove the gun myself at 50 and 100. I did five groups of five shots at each distance. Accuracy at 50 was the same as the jig with all five groups going in 1/2"-5/8". 100 yard accuracy was what you'd expect also, averaging 1".

Totally off off the subject (but interesting) is the fact that there is about 2 mph of left to right wind at that range. Odd since it's indoors, must some odd ventilation pattern from the exhaust system.

My gun (Lilja non-tightbore) with the right lot of Edge is 1 minute at 50 and 100. I was hoping for better, but it's more than adequate for what I need it to do.