F T/R Competition F- T/R bipod question

A

Aquatic_Robotic

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Minuteman
Mar 7, 2011
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East Texas
#1
Will there be a noticeable disadvantage to just using the Harris bipod that is on my APA 308 now + my squeeze bag.

If I enjoy the F T/R shoot, and decide to compete regularly, what would be the proper bipod and rear rest to purchase and what is the cost range.

Thanks
 
#3
Had the Sinclair gen 3 micro assist and sent out back. The fine adjustment knob had a lot of backlash.

For the Duplin bipod and love it. I would say 100% better in my opinion. It is light weight and very accurate. Helps save weight on FTR rifles where we are limited.


I have a Protektor rear rest and I like it. Good value for the price. Heavy sand in the base and reg sand in the ears. With cordura ear material
 
#4
Aquatic_Robotic said:
Will there be a noticeable disadvantage to just using the Harris bipod that is on my APA 308 now + my squeeze bag.

If I enjoy the F T/R shoot, and decide to compete regularly, what would be the proper bipod and rear rest to purchase and what is the cost range.

Thanks
Click to expand...

In my opinion, there is a disadvantage if you use a Harris bipod and a squeeze bag when shooting F-TR. The Harris bipod is about as low as you can go and still call it a bipod; it might be very nice for "tactical" applications where repeatable high accuracy is not required but that's not F-TR.

When you use a Harris you have to work to control the hop and torque it encounters at firing; you have to load it and your follow through must be perfectly executed each time. The latter part is also true for a more sophisticated bipod, but there you are working at a higher level of accuracy because your rifle does not want to hop and torque as much.

When I transitioned to a Sinclair Gen 2 about 6 years ago, it took me a match or two to realize that you must let the bipod do its thing, which is to support the rifle and recoil along with it; you do not want to load it or do anything else to it, you want to let it be and just guide it during the recoil by doing a proper follow through. By not putting any pressure or stress on the rifle to load a bipod, your muscles should be relaxed and not under any tension that gets transmitted to the rifle at the time of firing. This increases accuracy and makes it easier to shoot a long string in a short time.

Also, by not having to reposition the squeeze bag and reset the load on your bipod and so on, you can be ready to fire again as soon as the target comes back up and your scorer can read and record the score. By not having to worry about getting everything back the same way, you can concentrate on the conditions and get the next shot off quickly if you think you need to. In F-TR, being able to fire quickly is very critical at times, just as much as holding your fire when you must.

The specialty bipods will range from $200 to $500 or more, depending on the exotic materials used. I currently use a Sinclair Gen3 with the adjustment knob. I only use the knob during prep time if needed, after that, it's all done on the rear bag. My current rear bag for the last 7 years has been a Protektor #41 loaded with heavy sand. I am considering getting something else, maybe a little lower and longer to better fit my shooting style and rifle. These bags will go from $80 to $200 or more.
 
#6
It would be if you had a lot of elevation to deal with.

Setting up my shooting mat and ancillary equipment is somewhat of a ritual for me; done the same way every time. I first lay down my mat with the rear being at the smallest of angle to the left (looking toward the target.) Then I put down my rubber mat, square to the target and finally my bipod mat. (No board for me, thank you very much.)

Next goes the rear bag, always right about the same spot on the mat. Then the spotting scope and finally my elbow pad and the ammo box and my notepad.

When I can move my rifle to the line, I just sit it in the rear bag and the bipod goes right in the center of the bipod mat. Then I will fiddle with the legs and the elevation of the Sinclair Gen 3 until my rifle is aimed naturally in the black, preferably in the 9-ring or better, just sitting there.

When I start shooting, I just squeeze the ear between my thumb and forefinger to get the NP2DD reticle right where I want it. The body of the bag is solid and I depend on that, it must be constant else I would have issues.

In Raton the firing line has the worst firing points I have ever seen and the targets are a few degrees higher than the line which makes for a strange setup with the legs extended to the maximum. But at Bayou Rifles, for example, the firing points have a reverse and the bipod is very low. You just have to play with it until you find your best method and then repeat it, over and over again.
 
#7
I use Sinclair tactical bipod and podclaws with rear bag and can hold pretty much .8/9moa@300m and even less at 100 for 20 shot strings with heavy bipod load and light back pull on pistol grip. My main improvement came from flex in bipod which makes loading of bipod easier to achieve properly and at right angles (BODY STRAIGHT BEHIND THE RIFLE!!!!!!!!!). I'm sure if i put harris back on results will be much similar or at least not very far off.
 
#8
Member gstaylor shoots off a loaded bibod while squeezing the rear bag and does extremely well. I on the other hand want as little interaction with the rifle as possible so I shoot free recoil with a sled bipod. I regret I did not opt for the heavy sand option on my protector rear bag. The heavy sand is way more dence than the regular fill.

I need to get a ritual down for setting up, I have a haphazard approach which I believe hurts me.

Diego
 
#9
Ahh got it you all just squese the ears not the bag itself. For those who use a board for the bipod, can the board have spikes, like golf shoes to keep it from moving. Not that own needs that I am jsut curious about the finer points of the rule in regard to afixing the bipod board to teh earth.
 
#10
Rule 3.4.1 (B)-2 --no the board has to be flat
(2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. Separate flat boards or plates not exceeding the
dimensions of the individual rests by two inches are allowed to be placed under the front and/or rear
rests. In the case of a bipod, the board or plate may not exceed the width of the bipod by 2", nor be
more than 12" front to rear. See Rule 3.4.1(a)(1).
No leveling screws or protrusions are allowed on these boards or plates. They must be flat on the top
and bottom
Click to expand...
 
#11
As stated, no spikes on the board. However, a "mat" that is flexible is not considered a board at all. I have seen people use the shooting mat itself, a piece of carpet, a flexible kitchen cutting board, the list is long. If it can be rolled up or folded, it is not a board and therefore not subject to the same rules as a board with respect to dimensional limitations, even though it serves the same purpose. I generally use a piece of indoor/outdoor carpet underneath my shooting pad that is slightly longer than the pad itself so that it protrudes about a foot or so in front. The bipod legs rest on it, and my weight while laying on the shooting pad above it holds it firmly in place.


Ted, FWIW, I have a pretty good sized bag of very fine, heavy sand. If you want some, I have plenty. I'll be out Sat AM at SBRGC, otherwise I could bring some to the Reduced Palma match. Just let me know.
 
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#13
As an F-TR competitor, I believe there is a place for Harris bipods and boards.

Under my competitors' rifles.


As for the Rempel or Duplin or Star Shooter or any of the numerous other higher end bipods; I have no clue which one is "best." The only ones I have tried and used extensively are the Sinclairs Gen 2 and Gen 3 and they certainly have not hurt my scores any.
 
#15
Aquatic_Robotic,
FWIW - I used an Atlas V8 bipod the first year I started shooting F-TR. It is quite similar to the Harris in terms of its stance/footprint. The advice given above, by some folks that definitely know what they're talking about, is a good illustration of the range bipods currently being used in F-TR. The top shooters generally use a sled or ski type just as described above. These bipods have a very wide footprint and offer greatly enhanced stability as compared to something like a Harris or Atlas. Most of these will set you back somewhere in the range of $250 to $400, depending on the manufacturer, so the decision of what to buy should be considered carefully.

Because of that, my suggestion would simply be to go shoot a match with your Harris first, and see whether you would like to take it any further. If you get bitten hard by the F-TR bug like the rest of us have, then you can decide how much you would like to spend to upgrade your current setup, and where best to spend it. The bipod would definitely be a good place to start, but the sky is really the limit once you get into it. For that reason, unless your funding for shooting is essentially unlimited, you will want to be judicious about how and what you upgrade. Trust me, simply by competing in a match you will see lots of different types of equipment and can start to think about what options might serve you better. The real key is to get out and shoot, regardless of what setup you have. In midrange matches at the local level, the Atlas served me quite well and I enjoyed a reasonable amount of success using it.

Generally, first time shooters are not going to finish at the very top of the list, regardless of what setup they have, so my advice is to go shoot, do the best you can, and see how you like it. Don't worry about how competitive you'll be the first time out, just take in the experience, have fun, and get as many tips from the veterans as you can. Once you get your feet wet, so to speak, if you enjoyed yourself and wish to continue competing in F-TR, you'll be in a better position to decide how and what to upgrade. If for some reason you don't care for the competition, at least you won't be out hundreds of dollars on a bipod that really isn't very useful for most types of shooting other than F-TR. Good luck with it and let us know how things turn out.
 
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#16
Very thoughtful and insightful answers. Thanks for all the great information.

I think I'll do just as suggested, go shoot a match with what I have and see what it is all about. If I like it, I can decide which direction to go.

Thanks again and I'll post back on this thread how things progress.
 
#17
I did not like any of the bipods, you can always make your own. Mine is 6061 billet and carbon fiber. Have not tried it yet though.

I agree, these guys in this forum forum provide real thoughtful, useful, insightful responses.
 
#18
Hello. As a newbie to F class, I am seeing a lot of sage advice. For what it is worth, I would like to share my two cents, but I need to provide a qualification.

Unlike many here, I did not have the luxury to decide to shoot F class, it was thrust upon me by a negligent motorist. I have almost 40 years of "conventional" sling shooting under my belt, and I miss it. I am using a bipod only because catastrophic arm injuries destroyed the muscles in my arm, so I can't build a good solid position that lasts more than 4-5 minutes, and my performance deteriorates by the ninth shot, forget a 20 shot match. (Catastrophic leg and pelvis injuries have kept me from conventional position shooting.)

I built an AR long range rifle, and I have incorporated a 9-12" Versa Pod with ski feet. Fortunately, my left arm would be my sling arm, and I use it as the rest for my butt stock. This way, I still feel as though I am building the physical position, not manipulating the trigger on a bench rest (sorry if I offend any F Open shooters). Basically, I can best describe my shooting "style" as comparable to single firing a B.A.R. I refuse to use a bench rest or a bag. (Footnote: after two matches, I am flirting with an Expert card, I can now focus more on reading wind and learning to shoot glass, while relying on the skills that earned me a Master classification.

I had a Harris bipod for load development, but didn't like its bench rest stability and performance for matches. The Versa Pod compensates for the Harris' short comings, but still requires a higher degree of shooter involvement than shooting F Open. I find the rigid bipods, comparable to that offered by Sinclair to be too much like shooting off a bench rest.
 
#19
LRRifleman said:
I find the rigid bipods, comparable to that offered by Sinclair to be too much like shooting off a bench rest.
Click to expand...

This is competition, and you obviously haven't seen Seb's joystick bipod. Which by the way, if he was using the same bipod at Camp Perry that he used at Raton, I believe that Mid Tompkins used to shoot a new F-TR national record. (and Mid definitely predates F class in competitive shooting)

Shooting F class may challenge you to get out of the box that 40 yrs of sling shooting built for you, but then again the Brits argued against wiping too. If you want to shoot F Class you can approach it just like sling shooting, it can be just for fun and you can shoot stock equipment, or you can get serious.
 
#20
As I said earlier the Harris bipod is about as low as you can go and still say you have a bipod. The Versa - pod is superior because of the method of attachment to the rifle. The cantilevered design minimizes the hop and torque on firing. The more sophisticated designs do that as well and bring in other benefits.

If you hope to be competitive in F-TR you should look at what top shooters use and stop trying to handicap yourself because you want to use what you shot with for years. If you are truly able to dope the conditions, then using proper equipment will make you a fearsome competitor.

I know people who insist on using 24 inch barrels, Harris bipods, 10X scopes and 175gr SMKS. They are called participants or prize money contributors.

It's up to you on how you want to approach this new challenge.
 
#22
I think some folks are missing a critical point. IMO, it's much more important to actually get new shooters out competing than what equipment they may be using. At the local level where most shooters start, it's perfectly fine to show up with a 24" barreled Remy 700 and a Harris bipod. The key is to get out and get involved. It's good for the shooter and it's good for the sport. Unless your local range is one where a bunch of really high level shooters compete, it's more than possible to shoot well with such a setup. I'm not claiming first time shooters with such a setup are very likely to sweep the table their first time out. Then again, they're not very likely to do that the first time regardless of what bipod or scope they're using, either. I really dislike the implication that new shooters are simply fodder for the prize table. Of course an accomplished F-Class shooter with good wind reading skills should be able to beat newer competitors soundly, regardless of whether or not they bring an expensive custom rifle/scope/bipod. But true or not, making statements like that in widely-read shooting forums is in extremely bad taste and a poor way to foster new shooters getting involved.

My main concern is that by stating new shooters should be using the very top of the line equipment that shooters at the highest level are using, we may well be discouraging beginners that can't afford a $400.00 bipod and $2500.00 scope, or that may be unwilling to do so until they determine F-Class competition is something they wish to pursue in a serious way. When (if) they reach that point is the time to consider equipment upgrades. Further, having attended matches and seen what the other shooters are using, they'll be in a much better position to make an informed decision on new purchases.

Prior to my first F-TR match (midrange, 3 x 20 @ 600 yd), I had absolutely no idea what to expect. I brought my 22" barrel GAP Crusader with Applied Ballistics commercial ammo, and used an Atlas bipod. I went into that match with intent of winning, and the expectation of coming in dead last. I figured anywhere in-between, and I'd be good to go. I learned a lot that first time out, got to shoot with a great bunch of folks, and had a blast. I've been hooked ever since. So to anyone reading this thread that may be considering getting involved in F-Class competition, my advice is to take whatever equipment you already have and just go shoot. Don't worry about how you'll do because improvement will come if you decide to stick with it. So best of luck and most of all have fun. That is what will keep you coming back.
 
#24
Ok, I guess everybody is missing the point here.

The OP was asking about the difference between a Harris bipod and a more sophisticated one. He also stressed that he wanted to know that in case he really liked F-TR and wanted to continue and improve. I explained that there is indeed a difference and explained why.

I totally agree that people can absolutely come and play with what they have and it does not have to be top of the line equipment or ammo, as long as it's safe, abides by the rules and can actually reach the target reliably.

I should point out that for me F-TR competition is all 1000 yards because that's what I shoot every month. Also as the current match director for LR comps at our club, I meet and try to greet every new shooter that comes to a competition. Over the years, I have seen lots of new shooters come by, shoot once, and never return to the 1000 yard matches. They came with Old Betsy and store bought ammo and discovered that it was not able to shoot sub-MOA all day long at all distances, whether they did their part or not.

However, that said, when the new shooters come back and try again and show a willingness to improve, then I start helping them. I squad these returnees with me or another veteran shooter either on the same target or on a neighboring target. I watch these returnees shoot and make mental notes to myself. After I watch them, between matches, I take the shooter I am shadowing and I ask him or her if he or she would like some comments on their performance. If the answer is yes, I explain that I do not want them to justify anything, I will just give them my honest assessment and they can chose to ignore it or ask further questions.

If they agree to that caveat, then I just tell them what I observed. I then explain what they might want to do with their equipment to enhance it or make better use of what they have.

These people actually listen and learn and improve and they enjoy the journey. They begin to participate in discussions and they learn even more. They learn what is important to improve and what can be left for later. They all get better and that's the point. The participation at our club has increased in the last several years and we are developing a good group of F-TR shooters.

We also use the classification system and this gives the beginning shooters a good chance of winning their class. I make sure to send in the NRA reports within a week of each match and I publish the results the day after the matches and I mention the winners of all the classes and note the achievements and other notable things as I see them at the match. I keep track of the development of all the members throughout the year and make a big deal to note improvements and other significant events during the last year.

The thing to which I take exception is people on boards such as these who promulgate the fantasy that run-of-the-mill equipment will allow someone, anyone to be competitive at 1000 yards in F-TR; that is what I was addressing by the comment I made above.

It is also fantasy to expect someone who has top-of-the-line equipment and ammo to be competitive without having commensurate skills in reading AND properly interpreting AND properly compensating for conditions. F-TR is VERY demanding at the top end and handicapping oneself with sub-par (for the game) equipment is unwise.
 
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#25
Harris

Good or bad. like everything it depends... at the worlds there were 2 guy I know that finished in the top 20 and one of those finished in the top 10, using a harris. the overall champion used a harris with pod paws (made it a slider) until it weighted too much and he switch to the M pod.
The biggest thing with the harris is that it may cause additional vertical. vertical loses points and if you couple the vertical with a so-so wind call the shot may be a low 9 at 7 or 5 o'clock where as, if you used a different bipod it might have caught the 10 ring at 9 or 3.

Here is the point some other have tried to make. the harris is only a problem until you are out shooting your equipment. if your average group at 300 is 2 1/2 inches then you can work on your skill set to get everything gun, bipod, ammo and shooter to shoot 1" at 300. once you get to 1" at 300 then it becomes what can I change to get that to .75 then .6 and so on.

I don't use the harris but I am still a hard holder however I use the LR accuracy, I find that bipod lock up better and is more repeatable then the harris. The harris I found could flex with the more forward pressure I put on the rifle the LR accuracy much less so. those slider bipods have no forward pressure (very little) and this is what allows most shooters to have better vertical; with no pressure there is a consistent position and more consistent shots.

If you want to use the harris and I would encourage you to use it until you think it is the source of your problem I would tell you to bring a mat. (car, bath or other). everyone uses a surface that they are familiar with and is repeatable to them. Raton is a lava rock cluster F... I shoot on manicured grass firing points, up here, and the trip last year showed me that trying to hard hold in loose gravel was different. if you use a mat the hold becomes more consistent and your shots and confidence improve.

Best of luck.
Trevor
 
#27
Got a good deal on a lightly used Duplin here and been shooting it. Like it very much. Placed an order quite some time back for one of the new MPOD's. Just got an email Friday that says mine will be in the first run in a a few weeks. Looking forward to getting on my Savage 12 FTR and see what it feels and shoots like. It is very different from the Duplin. Not sure which I will like best, but will update after I give it a try.
 
#28
Trevor said:
Harris

the overall champion used a harris with pod paws (made it a slider) until it weighted too much and he switch to the M pod.

He never went back to that Harris either...

Like the guys above said, just go to the match, shoot it, and have fun. The Harris is a disadvantage, but I shot on one with a Triad Tactical beanbag for almost a year. I now use an M pod (VERY,VERY GOOD BIPOD; It's super-light and less expensive than most of the competition to boot) with a Protektor rear bag, filled with heavy sand. The change in bipod and bag was a substantial improvement over the Harris. It's far more stable and repeatable.
Again, I wouldn't even worry about that right now if I were you. Just go have fun and get hooked!
Click to expand...
 
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