F T/R Competition F T/R build sequence question.

[CH Luke]

Been working my way up to this and figured this winter will be the time to start. Spent a lot of time studying stickies and posts around the Hide but hope to get some advice here from the experts on what my plan is at this point.
What I have today:
Estimate I only have about 2000 rounds on the stock rifle (Savage 12 VLP DBM) with 26" 1:10 barrel and have been very pleased with how it has performed out to 1025 yards. It's a 4.40" top release action.
Currently has a Vortex Viper PST 6x24 mil mil with adjustments of 1/10th mil. Research here tells me I will eventually want to get a more specialized scope with more resolution and finer adjustments at 1/8th MOA.
Want to stay .308. Do hand load and have refined my loads around 175 grain SMK's. Currently have a Harris bipod.
The Plan:
Here's what I'm thinking so far. Please input on each point and especially it's sequence. I have them listed in the order I was thinking if doing them. Steps 1 & 2 I would do right away this fall (and get another 1000 or so rounds of practice in) while steps 3 & 4 I would do over this coming winter and into tax return season. I am thinking I have plenty of barrel life left and not the worst scope listed later in the sequence.
1) New chassis or stock. Like the looks of the newer style chassis as from XLR, the McRee's G5, JP Enterprises ACMS. But I would stay with some of the "classic" styles such as Precision Rifles depending on advice here.
2) upgrade my bipod to Sinclair 3rd Gen (weight concern), Duplin or others I have read about here that you might suggest.
3) Barrel maker, length, twist and bullet (brand and weight) combinations. I see a lot of brands out there with great names and it seems there could be at least a half dozen brands worthy of consideration. This is one area I would really like to encourage feedback that includes all four components.
4) Scope. There is a lot of info here and on the Hide about scopes that I have been studying so the main thing I am looking for input on here is feedback on this being #4 versus earlier in the sequence.

Thanks to everyone in advance for your input and advice.

 

[haroldwilson]

Do you have any 600 yd F Class matches near you? I would get a rear bag and go shoot it just like it is with your Harris bipod. Start shooting some matches. Look at other shooter's rifles. They will likely let you get behind their rifles and maybe even shoot them. Ask questions about bullets, chamber dimensions, etc. before you buy a new barrel.

Do you want a flat bottom stock or one with an angle? I shoot one with an angled bottom. I have a couple of buddies that shoot flat bottom stocks in F/TR and shoot well with them. Do you know why you might favor one over the other?

Yes you will want a better bipod. Which one? Hard to say until you shoot some. I started on a Harris. Including that one, I am now on my fourth one. Lighter bipod allows heavier components like barrels. A lot of really good shooters shoot the Sinclair and even the Phoenix, both heavy bipods.

Barrel depends on your other components. How much will your action, stock, scope, trigger and rings weigh? Get the biggest barrel that will fit under weight. Big as in large contour or longer length, your choice. A 30" Heavy Varmint is a good goal. I am shooting an MTU on one of my guns. I like them. Not everyone can make weight with an MTU.

Right now I would say the NF Comp is the best deal going on a new scope for F/TR. However, a used NXS is a real possibility as well. I have never looked through a Sightron, but a lot of people shoot them.

Bottom line, get to a match and learn some stuff and have some fun.

 

[CH Luke]

Thanks Harold. We do have a big 1000 yard match coming up here in Michigan late this month that I plan to visit all weekend.
Probably should have mentioned the club I belong to a few hours from here has a 1000 yard range with regulation targets and pit so I have had a couple chances to simulate matches and will do that a couple times yet this fall. We don't have 600 there other than steel so that might explain why I am a bit more focused on the longer range.
There's another club 30 minutes from here with 600 matches fairly frequently and I will take your advice there. Just wish they had openings for new members as I would spend a lot of time there.

 

[SWRichmond]

Don't worry about "simulating" matches. Sign up and shoot. If you'll be shooting with the Michigan shooters I am thinking of you will be in great company, and their competitive abilities will motivate you by showing you how well it can be done. Think of proximity to a high-quality competitive program as a blessing and not a potential embarrassment.

I did stock first, as I was extremely uncomfortable on my factory stock and finally realized how much that was impacting my shooting. Adapting my body to the stock introduced a huge set of variables I could not consistently control (body position on the rifle and controlling the recoil cycle, LOP, cheek position and pressure, finger position on trigger, it was a mess for me) and so I threw shots often. I bought an adjustable stock, experimented with FITTING THE STOCK TO ME, rather than vice-versa, and good things started happening.

Barrel was next, when I decided I was ready to start competing in FTR. Group size shrank immediately. Now able to hold the removed factory (700P) barrel up to my eye and examine it, I can see with the naked eye that the chamber is off center from the bore...now I understand why, no matter what I did, I couldn't get it to shoot better than 0.6". The new barrel has about 2600 rounds on it, and I am looking at rebarreling this winter, it has become finicky and a bit unpredictable. The rebarreling decision involves deciding about chamber dimensions, so this is something else for you to consider.

Scope was last...and after each of these upgrades I quickly asked myself "why did I wait so long?" The thing is, I waited until I could clearly tell that the equipment was the limiting factor, and I was able to tell what I actually wanted, not relying on a recommendation from someone on the internet to buy some top-of-the-line (and price) piece of equipment. I didn't buy the gear because it was "the gear", I bought the gear I knew I needed. I am still using a Harris S-BRM and am determined to make Master in FTR LR with it and a couple of brick bags.

YMMV.

 

[easygoose]

1) 30", 10 twist, heavy Varmint. That gives you a choice of several competitive bullets. Check bugholes.com they stock Brux and other great barrels.

2) mystic precision bipod (similar advantages and lightweight)

3) night force competition or the new leupold.

4) traditional stock, manners carbon stocks are extremely light and allow you lots of options but your choice was great too.

IMHO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[CharlieNC]

Don't dismiss the $200 Choate Tac stock. Aluminum bedding block that extends into the fore-end is great for shooting off bipod, and it has a built-in rail for mounting too. A couple of different height cheek rests are available to get a good cheek weld. I'm "upgrading" mine now by adding more weight to it. Until you become an excellent shooter, it will not be the weak link and can save you some money for other upgrades. Yea I like my Manners, and it is without a doubt a nicer stock; but I would't say it shoots any better at my stage of experience.

 

[haroldwilson]

If you spring for a NF Comp, you won't go wrong. You could sell it and lose very little money if you didn't like it, which is not likely. It is also light and won't eat into your overall weight allowance much. I would go Ken Farrell or NF Ultralight rings. The used NXS would be a good scope, but they are heavier. Cheaper, but heavier.

I recommended a 600 yd match because of your 26" barrel. If you are wanting to shoot 1000 yds at your local, you may need a barrel. How fast can you run a 175 SMK out of your barrel? I'm not sure you can stay supersonic with that bullet and that barrel at 1000 yds? You ideally need to be a 1.2 mach at target distance.

 

[CH Luke]

Right at 1200 FPS at 1000 yards with 9.4 to 9.6 Mils depending on conditions of course dialed up. So that's short of 1.2 Mach by about 100 FPS. That's a great benchmark to remember and gives me more motivation to try that extra 0.3 grains on my next load day.
Was able to stay in the black consistently 4/5 and a couple 9/10 but also had excellent spotters helping me a lot with a tough wind. Had a lot of trigger time back in the day with some excellent teachers and I have been fairly happy that age hasn't completely eroded my skills.
Bottom line is this is exactly the feedback I'm looking for. I'm off to the local club this weekend to talk my way in do I can get to that 600 range regularly. Thank you.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Have used Savage in FTR and Open for years and will be shooting 1 at the US Nationals this Oct. They work... what is your budget? On the assumption, you are not rolling in funds and the rifle is already working well for you.

1 - Shilen SS Select Match, 12 twist, BULL contour, 30" finished, throat longer for the 185's which is the closest to your 175's and fly so much better. You can also go with a shouldered headspace barrel but the prefits will save a bunch of $$.
2 - Precision recoil lug - 1/4" is fine
3 - Proper bedding. So very important
4 - if you want a lighter trigger pull, Rifle Basix 2. SSS makes one too but have not played with any current versions.
5 - Scope base - Farrell 1pc steel 20 MOA
6 - Rings - Burris sig zee
7 - Adjustable comb - Tacpro, Kirsten or similar. You may find that a higher scope is more comfy when shooting prone.
8 - big spongy recoil pad.

For a bipod, I can highly recommend the MPOD (my design). EGW offers them and will keep to the same weight (or lighter) then your Harris.

As long as the stock ergonomics fit you, change isn't going to do a heck of a lot. The lam stock is plenty rigid for your needs. If you want a new stock, Choate tactical is dirt cheap for what you get and it is built like a tank.

For scope, I compete with the Sightron SIII 10-50X60 with a custom shop reticle swap. 1/8 min clicks with LRMOA reticle. It is really a pain to use a MRAD scope on an F class target.

Quality rear bag, shooting mat, spotting scope if you can swing it. Go have fun.

Jerry

 

[CH Luke]

This is why I spend so much time on this site. Thank you.

 

[Boblor]

CH Luke,
Sounds like you shoot at MTC by Lake City. 1000 yd Home Range of the Michigan F tr team.
There will be a 600 yard mid range sling and F class match at the Cadillac Sportsman's Club on M-55 this coming Sunday 9-21-14. Most all of the Mich. F tr team shooters will be there. Sixty rounds for record, unlimited sighters. We squad competitors starting at 07:30 to 08:15 at the club house, the match starts at 0900hrs we finish up about 15:00 hr.
Cadillac Spts Club is about one mile east of the US 131 X-way Exit 180 (M-55 exit)
Bob L. Match Director

 

[CH Luke]

Thanks for the heads up.
That's correct Bob. I was planning to spend some practice time at MTC next weekend and I usually stay in Cadillac when up there. At the very least I will drop by that match.

 

[Boblor]

CH, please do come and shoot with us or at least have a visit watch some or all of the match and stay afterward for ice cream or hot soup or Chili depending on the weather forecast. I will be taking the registrations and running the line or ask anyone to point me out to you, I would be glad to meet you.

Bob L.

 

[CH Luke]

Will do. See you Sunday morning. Thank you.

 

[Boblor]

Ch, there is also a 3x600 yd midrange sling and F class match on Saturday Sept 20 at the Midland, Mi. sportsman's club. Again a sixty shot for record match with unlimited sighters. Registration and squading starts there at about 07:45. A good match there too, I would like to attend, but I have to run an across the course match at Cadillac that same day.
Bob L

 

[Boblor]

Well CH, it was nice to meet you and I hope you enjoyed the match even if we did get soaked. Maybe we will see you up to Grayling this coming weekend. Remember there is a Michigan F tr team, we are always open to new members.
bob L

 

[CH Luke]

Thanks Bob. In spite of the weather I managed to stay dry working the covered pits when it really cut loose and had some rain gear.
Very enjoyable. Excellent setup at your club. Couldn't have been paired with a better shooter for a first match! Learned a lot, see what I need to do and left knowing for certain I am going to do this a lot more. I'm all ears on the team thing. Will reach out to you via email.

 

[Boblor]

Excellent CH, team will be practicing at 4pm at MTC today then again doing the team match on Friday at Camp Grayling 1000 yd matches. Will look for you at Camp Grayling, bring your rifle and ammo!!!! Individual matches are on Saturday and Sunday all at 1000 yds on Range 10. You can be included in the team matches on Friday if you wish also. Michigan and Rifle Association . org I believe is the web site that should have more info on the long range division matches. There is also a 3x600 yard match coming up at the Midland Sportsmans Club on Oct 18. Ray, the guy you were squadded with is from that club. And yes you had one of the best guys to be squadded with, team captain of the USA Ftr team.
Bob L

 

[DGD6MM]

CH, I read each post here in your thread. You certainly have been blessed with getting together with some great people to get you up and running strong. It seems you will also have plenty of shooting matchs opened to you in your surrounding areas. You have been given verygood input on your equipment upgrades. I put a Savage together 2 years ago and am very pleased with the results that it and I can turn out. It has a 30" CBI Bull Barrel with a 1-11 twist, 185 Berger Juggernauts for 1000 yards. I have mine in a BVSS laminate with a sanded palmsweel. I bought a VLP laminate at the same time, have not tried it yet. It is the same stock as Savage FTR minus the vents and cheekrest. I use a 12-42x56 NF BR, would own a 10-50 Sightron. My bipod is a Werks, it is light, footprint is not quite as wide as a Sinclair, but works great. Take your time in upgrading, check out other shooters equipment, enjoy yourself.


Don Dunlap

 

[bluto77]

I haven't read your entire thread, but I'm going through this right now. Since I'm trying to get it finished in time to use in the TSRA Mid Range on Oct 10, I ended up buying extra components that I was planning on trying to sell either here or on accurateshooter.com. I'll PM you the details if interested.

When I have more time I'll come back and post more useful information based on my findings thus far, as opposed to a solicitation to sell you some of my stuff!

 

[CH Luke]

CH, I read each post here in your thread. You certainly have been blessed with getting together with some great people to get you up and running strong. It seems you will also have plenty of shooting matchs opened to you in your surrounding areas. You have been given verygood input on your equipment upgrades. I put a Savage together 2 years ago and am very pleased with the results that it and I can turn out. It has a 30" CBI Bull Barrel with a 1-11 twist, 185 Berger Juggernauts for 1000 yards. I have mine in a BVSS laminate with a sanded palmsweel. I bought a VLP laminate at the same time, have not tried it yet. It is the same stock as Savage FTR minus the vents and cheekrest. I use a 12-42x56 NF BR, would own a 10-50 Sightron. My bipod is a Werks, it is light, footprint is not quite as wide as a Sinclair, but works great. Take your time in upgrading, check out other shooters equipment, enjoy yourself.


Don Dunlap

Thanks Don. Been considering a different weight bullet such as the Berger 185's. Settled on the 175SMK's which also seem to be in consistent supply but just looking at the Berger BC's I know I need to try them, probably yet this coming winter.
Which Savage action are you using? My 12 series is not a Target action and really seems to work best with COAL's from 2.801 to 2.810 via a .011" to .020" jump with my Lapua brass from 2.000"to 2.010". Will the Bergers fit in that range? I hear a lot of guys jamming them.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

New Stock/Chassis, new Barrel, new Bipod, new Optic; at that point, how far away are you from buying an action and optic mounting and building a new gun outright?

I figure you can do your practice/training on the existing rifle, and reserve the 'improved version' for the more serious shooting.

It's as much about what you're abandoning as it is about what you're gaining.

Greg

 

[DGD6MM]

CH, my action is a model 12 stainless steel singleshot Varmint action . Savage made these before they came out with the Target Action. My oal with the 185 Jugg is 2.921 jumping .015. In a 26" barrel you will have to push the 185 hard to get what you need at 1000 yards to be competetive. I answered your questions, but Greg's response is good and equally valid.

 

[CH Luke]

Definitely on the same page. Was thinking about the 185's in conjunction with the longer barrel while keeping the stock action. Now that I know there is no room Greg's conclusion becomes inescapable.
Thank you both.

 

[SWRichmond]

The more "custom" your rifle becomes, the more single-purpose it also becomes. If money is no object, and you want a custom FT/R rifle, there are several people who would be very happy to build one for you. The high-dollar single shot custom actions are probably, for such a project, a good place to start. It really depends on whether or not you want to build a single-purpose rifle system. Here's a used custom FT/R rifle for sale on SH for $4200.00 (rifle only, no scope), built by one of the best: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/firearms-sale/272593-precision-rifle-tool-ftr-weapon.html

If you want to wring the last iota of accuracy out of your new custom purpose-built rifle (some here will say "if you want to be competitive..."), you will need to tell the smith what bullet you want it chambered for, you will also need to start: annealing brass; neck turning; sorting, meplat uniforming and tipping your bullets; weighing brass; checking base and bullet runout, etc. And if your goal is to win regional and national tournaments, then you'd better get busy with those things and a host more.

If your goal is to develop yourself as a shooter, learn competence at wind reading and hitting targets at distance, and stick your toes into the F Class pond deeper to see if you really like it enough to shit money at it, but you are not satisfied with the performance of your current rifle, then you can spend under a thousand dollars and have your action trued and a new, high-quality cut-rifled barrel installed in the length of your choice (longer being generally better). You will still need to tell the smith what bullet you intend to use, and I heartily recommend the 185 Juggernaut.

 

[CH Luke]

Excellent advice. Thank you.