Factors on a first long range rifle..

[da hammer]

So I have been reading and reading and then reading some more about entering the world of long range shooting and am at the point where I am ready to buy (I think).

I am a long term gun guy but scattergun not rifle. Have been shooting rifles for the last 15 years and have a lot of technique to clean up.

I don't currently re-load but am not adverse to it. I would like a gun that will shoot in the back yard (600 yard range) and at a buddies farm (1200yards) and also something that I can take to a long range powerline deer stand I have. I have taken bullet, energy, and ammo availability into consideration.

For the longest time I had decided that a .308 was be best way to go for me. Bullets are easy to get (for the most part), inexpensive, guns are plentiful, and lots of accessories available. Like the idea behind the .260 but seems like when you can find bullets they are very expensive and they burn the barrel up relatively quickly. 6.5 seems to be difficult to find ammo for unless you reload. However the benefit of lower recoil (help eliminate the flinch from years of shotgun shooting) seems very beneficial.

So in talking with my local long range gun shop owner he tells me the 6.5 creedmore has relative availability in ammo, great long range capability ( I already knew that) and low recoil. Seems like a good combination. After researching most of today it appears one can find ammo with some regularity, without having to reload. While I doubt there is any one great answer here does anyone have any thoughts that would poke big holes in my thinking or does going with the creedmore make sense?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ShtrRdy]

If you would be happy shooting and hunting out to 600 yds, the .308 would do the job nicely. If you want to shoot to 1200 then the 6.5 CM would do the job. Hunting out to 1200 with the 6.5 CM might be a problem of not having the energy left to get the job done though. Would you be hunting anything larger than deer?

 

[da hammer]

For this gun biggest animal I would plan on shooting would be whitetail. Longest shot I would have on one would be 800 yards. I realize the .308 would be a good gun but if I can get a little less recoil in the 6.5 CM I think it seems like a good trade off so long as I can find bullets for it.

 

[da hammer]

Dfoosking, I agree 100%. However if one is going to invest 5-7K in a shooting system shouldn't he or she look at all issues for the future rather than buy something now and then have to do it all over again in a few years when you decide what you purchased is wrong? I simply listed my goals above to try and get guidance on them. I live my life by goals to meet and my goal is to become a competent shooter at long range. Right now my current rifle set up won't allow for that. Hope that helps, and I would still appreciate any and all feed back on my original question. Thanks.

 

[40xs]

It wasn't that long ago that a 300 yd shot at an animal was a "loonnnggg" shot. Now days it seems that "you are the man"!! if you can kill an animal at say 7-8 hundred yds. or further. Judging distance is the biggest factor involved and kinetic energy is right there with it. At 9 hundred to 1k if you mis-judge the distance by just 40 yds. you have either shot over or under the animal, not to mention any wind involved. Everyone has differing opinions on this, mine is important only to me, but my opinion is ultra long shots at game is irresponsible. Like the saying goes; " no matter how strange something seems, the longer it remains, the more normal it becomes"!!!

 

[Whiskey9514]

For this gun biggest animal I would plan on shooting would be whitetail. Longest shot I would have on one would be 800 yards. I realize the .308 would be a good gun but if I can get a little less recoil in the 6.5 CM I think it seems like a good trade off so long as I can find bullets for it.

I don't know why your so high on the 308, are you stuck on short actions? If not why no love for a 300wm. 308 is like using a carrier pigeon when we have text messaging very out dated technology

 

[Greg Langelius *]

OK, gonna ramble some, now...

First, conclusions about 6.5's burning the barrel quickly are not especially accurate. Mostly, I suspect they are referring to the 6.5-284, and there's some point to that, but .260's and 6.5CM's are not such barrel burners at all.

Next, match shooting is quite different from less formal courses of fire because it places an emphasis on sustained fire, which puts pretty rigorous punishment on the barrel for any caliber. If you're not constrained to get those rounds downrange in a limited time period, your chambering choice become a lot less limited.

I think that if you're going to drop the hammer on a game animal at considerable distance, it pays to deliver significant energy when the round arrives. I think that for 600yd and beyond, this requires a long action chambering, and my choices for handloading are .280 Rem (which, by the way, won the 2012 World F Class Open Individual championship), and .30-'06 (which has been filling game freezers for well over a century). I'd also include the .270 Win if only factory hunting ammo is the consideration, but I just wish the .277" bullet diameter had a better range of accuracy bullet choices for handloading.

Getting back to barrels, the application makes a significant difference in weight selection. Unless sustained fire is going to be the norm, a lighter barrel is preferable. If a significant number of sustained fire sessions are anticipated, it will pay to get a heavier barrel, but then, it's not going to be my first choice for a field rifle. But nothing can make sustained fire tolerable the way additional rifle mass can do. I think you can see that I'm really taking about a pair of rifles here.

Velocity needs to be sufficient to get the bullet ontarget at a minimum velocity of 1300fps. Chambering, bullet weight and barrel length need to be optimized for this; and if taking game is involved, terminal energy is also an important factor. This is where the .308 falls flat at distance, and where the .270, 280, and .30-'06 will bring home more of the available roving meat supply all that way out there. Too much velocity is as bad as too little, no rifle is going to be fun to shoot a lot if it beats you up every time it snorts. Besides, rebarrelling is just so much not fun. Likewise, it's not going to be as easy or as much fun to shoot if lugging it to the firing point has already tuckered you out.

Stock configuration needs to fit the individual shooter, and the more likely the prone position is going to be prominent, the more one should hedge on the side of longer LOP. See LL's video of setting up the gun for the shooter. I would simply add that the rake of the comb should be level or dip down slightly forward, or heavy recoil will cause the comb to smack the cheekbone with a lot more authority. The higher the shoulder intersects the buttpad, the less the muzzle will flip upward in recoil. If a rifle is going to need to ride the bags, the bottom of the forend and the butt stock should be parallel to each other and preferably, to the bore axis, as well; and bottom protuberances, like sling loops and studs, should be removed when the gun is in the bags.

I like a smaller optics package, but that's a preference that's not so especially suited for hunting. If you can't count on the luxury of unlimited time to set up the shot, a wider field of view and the greatest light gathering ability are going to favor success. A lot of the weight vs portability question is going to boil down to how much attention you're going to pay toward coddling your gear. When in doubt, favor rugged reliability.

The only reason to get a custom anything is because your needs are not normal. For normal folks, factory hunting rifles are almost perfectly configured; otherwise they couldn't sell enough of them to make it worth building them. If I were to bitch about the general state of factory offerings, I'd say they skimp on LOP as an industry, but then again, I'm nearly six and a half feet tall and that means I'm not normal.

Pretty finishes and soopahdoopah camo look nice, but folks have been bringing home deer with wood stocked '94 Winchesters since, well, 1894... Be practical; preferences define us, be careful what you go around telling others about yourself without talking.

Greg

 

[Aimsmall55]

A 6.5 creedmor will whack em wayyyy out. Trust me. Just got to hit em right

 

[broylz]

why not look into a 30-06 build? ammo is everywhere which is good if you want factory loads and great if you know a bunch of other hunters with 30-06 as its a great source for brass.. you can reload it up to the light end of 300 win mag. couple people have taken it out to 1 mile so its more than capable. load it to m72 specs and have a decent shooting cartridge with a long barrel life. tons of bullet options for .30 caliber as well.

you could look into a 180gr NBT load that should reliably expand out to 600 yards or so. the new 190gr Accubond LR bullet is supposed to expand down to 1300fps so when pushed at 28-2900fps, you should get expansion out to 800, maybe 1000 yards.

its what im planning from my current 30-06 when I get it rebarreled.

 

[da hammer]

Thanks for the continued thoughts on this topic. Greg a lot of great insight on this. Broylz, I currently shoot a 30-06 that was a sniper rifle in WWII it is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. I have shot it at 600 yards at paper. Looking for that "second" gun as Greg described above.

The more I think the more I go back towards the 30-06 or a .308. However at the end of the day I still really like the idea of reduced recoil loads of a 6.5mm round for developing better form and technique. Maybe there isn't that much difference in the long run but it seems to make sense to me. In the meantime I keep trying to learn more.

I have been reading lots of books and shooting a lot as of late trying to get more ideas and more info. I still haven't pulled the trigger on a gun yet. Watching the classifieds and just waiting for what seems to be the right gun for me.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

What an entertaining thread. Seems there's no shortage of equipment that can support getting the job done. I wonder though about what good is the equipment if the OP knows nothing about the "factors" of a steady position, or the "effects" of wind and weather on trajectory. Perhaps, the OP might want to explore some LR target shooting with equipment at hand before buying anything.

 

[Danco411]

As a tinkerer I have a different take on this. First you don't need to spend 5-7K on a long range rig. You can if you want but it is not necessary. I am also of the mind that you should try not to make one caliber do everything. A long range hunting round has different requirements than a target round as stated above. I also hunt with my target rifles so too need to make sure I'm hunting with a round that will put energy downrange accurately. This is why I am really into Savage. The ability to switch barrels/calibers is simple and really keeps the cost down. I have a Savage 110 centerfeed long action with the .453 bolt face. I have it set up in a Bell and Carlson Tactical Medalist stock with 20" and 26" .308 barrels and a 24" 30-06 barrel. The .308 is great for target shooting for all the reasons stated above, cost of ammo, barrel life, ease of reloading and recoil. It does the job adequately out to 1K cheaply and effectively. With a 10 minute barrel swap I'm shooting a 30-06 hunting round with the a quality 180g bullet at 2900fps +.

Switching barrels takes just a barrel vice, cheap Savage barrel nut wrench and a go guage. The best part is you can use the same glass and just adjust zero for the different bullet speed. I have a whopping 1K into my rifle with both barrels. This way you can spend more on high quality glass. So for $2500 or so you have a sub MOA target rifle and a long range hunting rifle. My Savage rifles will shoot with the best of the high cost customs if I do my part.

 

[Graham]

Train first. Buy second. A .308 won't fall out if the sky at 600 yards. For hunting,the .308 hits hard to 400 and bullet placement is key.


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[Greg Langelius *]

The .30-'06 is a great choice, but my shooting partner tried one for F Class Open, and putting 40-plus 190gr projectiles downrange can get pretty tedious. That's where I prefer the .280. One can drive less lead at a higher velocity and (maybe even) BC, which will definitely reduce the punishment involved. Recoil is more noticeable in the prone. I am unusually recoil-averse.

Brass is not so easy to find, though; but I can still get some when I need it if I'm willing to wait some.

I love the Savage action. It's usually more true than the others from the factory, the floating bolt head permits better bolt lug load distribution, and mine has worn .260, .308, .260 again, and now, .30BR barrels. Even as a short action, it would wear a .280 action if and when I go there. It will extract a .30-'06-length empty fine, and if in the rarer occasion it needs to extract a live one, all that's needed is to release the bolt stop and withdraw the bolt a bit further. I already use a single shot follower,. so mag feeding isn't an issue for me.

Greg

 

[kraigWY]

I currently shoot a 30-06 that was a sniper rifle in WWII it is very accurate and a lot of fun to shoot.

Well then it seems to me that you have the rifle already. I'd recommend spending the "new gun" funds on bullets down range. Learn to read wind, mirage and other conditions. Get where you can keep the Vintage Sniper rifle in the 10 - X ring at 600 and 1000 yards before spending big bucks on some custom set up.

Learn to shoot the '06 with its vintage 2.5 X or so scope and you'll be way a head when you move on.

The '06 doesn't have to kick, mine doesn't, I use a Model 1903a4 in vintage sniper matches (300 & 600 yards) and I load 168 A-max's to 2600 FPS (308 velocities) and even with the steel butt plate, it doesn't bother me a bit, and I've become a wimp when it comes to recoil in my old age. Shooting is suppose to be fun, its not suppose to hurt. I take that into account when I load for my 06 vintage military rifles, and they are accurate.

 

[Graham]

If I could only have one rifle, it would be a ten-twist 30-06.


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[broylz]

I agree that shooting a bunch of heavy 190gr loads in an '06 for F-class can probably start to hurt a bit and be tiring but the OP also was talking at more long range hunting as an option. the 30-06 loaded down to m118LR specs, or m72, I could imagine would do fine for the f-class matches depending on range. the 190gr at 2800fps will still put deer down to 1K if a good bullet is chosen and the shooter is capable.