Gunsmithing Feeding issues w/ new rifle

[Sendit6.5]

Is the distance between the trigger guard (M5 footprint) and the bottom of an action (Deviant tactical) critical to proper feeding from a detachable magazine? In other words: if a stock is inletted for a American Precision Arms RTG/sa trigger guard and a Templar SA action, with pillars machined in by the factory, but you put a Deviant Tactical action in it instead, are you going to have issues with magazine fit and feeding?

Long story short....my gunsmith received a stock I ordered from McMillan and only looked that my name was on the tag and went to building. Even though I custom ordered a stock for a Deviant Tactical action and the APA RTG/sa trigger guard and no pillars installed, they sent out a stock inletted for the Templar action. When my GS noticed that the recoil lug inletting was too far forward, he proceeded to fix that inletting - without letting me know the inletting was off. The action just doesn't feed rounds smoothly. I know a Defiance action is tighter and takes some getting used to but this is kind of ridiculous.

I'm trying to get this worked out with McM and it looks like I may get another stock that is actually what I ordered. My GS says he'll re-do all the stock work on the new stock or work on this one some more - whatever I need. What I'm wondering is whether a stock that's inletted for the actual parts I'm using, will end up feeding better than this one?


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[Mordamer]

Describe the feeding problems you are having. Is the round not being picked up out of the mag? Is the bolt skipping over rounds in the mag? Is it feeding, but just is hard to push the bolt forward? Have you tried other mags? I find the polymer mags from magpul to feed much smoother than the steel AICS mags.

 

[Sendit6.5]

Describe the feeding problems you are having. Is the round not being picked up out of the mag? Is the bolt skipping over rounds in the mag? Is it feeding, but just is hard to push the bolt forward? Have you tried other mags? I find the polymer mags from magpul to feed much smoother than the steel AICS mags.

Sometimes it'll just lock up and I'll have to REALLY push hard to get the round to go forward and sometimes it won't go forward at all unless I back the bolt up and take a running start at it. Then, the next round (or two) might feed just fine but then I'll get stuck again. When I say I've got to ram the bolt forward...if I did that while shooting off bags I'd push the rifle away from me. Lol.

I've tried 3 different mags and they all sort of do the same thing. Accurate-Mag, Curtis 3-round and an AI AW mag. Now, initially, part of my problem was how I was cycling the action. It's my first custom action with these tight tolerances and I was cycling it with the bolt knob instead of using the bolt handle closer to the bolt body. A new friend that's a PRS shooter and gunsmith showed me how to cycle it better and explained that grabbing it out on the end of the handle and cycling it like a factory rifle would get it into a bind. He also tweaked the feed lips on the Accurate-Mag and that helped some also. Still, it's just not cycling right IMO. Seems like it should feed each round easily with a light push from the back - at least as good as a factory Tikka CTR. Shouldn't it? If not....why did I spend $4500 to build a rifle with all the top of the line components?

I'm waiting on a feed lip tool so that I can try to adjust them some but I feel like this issue is beyond adjusting feed lips. The Accurate-Mag has a crazy strong spring in it but the 3-round Curtis mag has a super light spring. Both magazines give me the same intermittent issue. They both seem to fit very sloppily into the bottom metal. Much more so than my Tikka mags in my CTR. Hate to keep returning to that CTR but it's the only bolt rifle I've ever owned that uses DBMs; so it's my only frame of reference. It's really irritating me that my factory rifle feeds better than the full custom I have! That's what's got me hunting for reasons.

Is it possible that the incorrect inletting is causing me the issues? I noticed that Curtis Customs' bottom metal (which seems identical to the APA metal I'm currently using) is shipped with pillars that are SPECIFIC to the action your using. That got me thinking that the incorrect inlet and the pillars that McM put in there might be causing my problem. If the length of the pillars is critical (as Curtis' website seems to indicate) it occurred to me that I might have found the problem? Wanted to run it by some experts.

I picked my GS because of his 30+ year reputation for building incredibly accurate benchrest rifles. I've shot some of his rifles and they were all 1-hole rifles that produced incredible groups even out to distance. However, he clearly is not as familiar with DBMs as I would have liked. I don't want to slam him in any way - I have no doubt that the rifle will shoot incredibly well and he's one heck of a nice guy. But I'm trying to diagnose this issue so that, when I send the rifle back to him, I'll be able to provide some suggestions that may help this feeding issue.

Yes, I know...I should have had someone else with genre specific skills build my first custom. Several people on here I can think of - guy's I'm hoping will chime in and help me. Live and learn.


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[Gary/CO]

I wonder with that pillar bedding if the magazine is just a wee bit too low such that the bolt isn't engaging the rim?

 

[Mordamer]

What cartridge?
When you insert an empty mag does it have extra room to go up into the stock even after the mag catch has engaged? If so, estimate or measure how much.
Pull the bolt and insert the mag with a piece of brass in the mag. Look from the back of the action along the bottom of the bolt channel. How much of the piece of brass can you see? You should be able to see the top edge of the primer pocket generally (assuming .308 cartridge diameter and large rifle primer). If you can just barely see the top edge of the case head that could indicate the mag is held into the stock too low.

The short answer is that your rifle should feed flawlessly for the money you paid (unless it is a cartridge that is known to have feeding issues). From your description it is hard to say what is wrong. Custom actions should be better at feeding than factory actions and not worse. Feeding can be finicky under certain circumstances.

 

[Sendit6.5]

It's a 6.5cm

Here are some pictures of the magazines and inside the action. I figured out that the AccurateMag and the Curtis are having 2 different issues.

AccurateMag - when the magazine is clicked into place, there's still about 1-1.5/16 of upward movement possible, if I push up on the bottom of the mag. There's probably 1/4" sided-to-side slop. If I EASE the bolt forward (imagine trying to feed a round slowly and quietly because a big buck is standing 25 yards from your blind) the bolt pushes the round forward but when the feed lips release the round, the case head pops up while the bullet tip goes down and the result is a bind - the nose of the bullet is catching on the edge of the chamber and the case head isn't inside the bolt face, it's resting on the top edge of the bolt. If I'm describing it right. Hopefully these pictures of the nose and head end of the round will help:

Here are a couple pictures of the loaded AccurateMag:

The Curtis 3-round mag: this magazine has to be slammed from the bottom to get it to lock into place when the bolt is closed. But there's LOTS of up and down slop when the bolt is open - probably 3/16" of movement that I caught in this quick video:


What's happening with this magazine (which I was SO looking forward to for hunting) is that the bolt is hitting one of the feed lips. These feed lips aren't adjustable unless you dremel them down, because they're really thick metal. This is occurring as the mag is sitting as low as possible in the bottom metal. In fact, if I insert the magazine while the bolt is closed, when I open the bolt and pull it back I can feel the bolt dragging on the top of the feed lip and the top round.

FWIW- Here are a couple of pics of the inside of the action, showing a little of the relationship between the action and the top of the bottom metal.

What do y'all think? Are these magazine/feeding issues I'm having related to the incorrect inletting of the action; and to the incorrect special relationship between the action and the bottom metal?

Ugh! What a royal PITA! I ordered this stock from Hill Country Rifles as it's their proprietary design that's manufactured by McMillan. I have a copy of the order that McM got and they built something else and sent it to HCR who then sent it to my smith. NEITHER McM NOR Hill Country Rifles caught the fact that the stock was not right. WTF! They didn't even catch the fact that the flush cups were missing! I just can't believe how badly BOTH of these companies failed on the same order. I'm going to Hill Country Rifles (2hrs away) tomorrow and we're going to get this mess straightened out. All I know is that SOMEONE is going to make me the stock that I paid almost $900 for - the way that I ordered it!!





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[19Scout77]

Try using a new AICS magazine...from AI, that nobody has dicked with, and report back

 

[Sendit6.5]

Try using a new AICS magazine...from AI, that nobody has dicked with, and report back

I have one on order but I'd still like a theoretical answer to my question whether the incorrect inletting could lead to this type of problem.


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[knockemdown]

If this were my mag, I'd bend the feed lips in at the front, so that the bullet sits more 'level' in the magazine. With the bullet tip riding that 'high', it never has a chance to engage the action's feed ramp, which gets the round angled up properly toward the chamber...

Your next pic shows exactly what happens when the bullet 'misses' the feed ramp, and bottoms out into the breech:

So, as 19Scout recommended, try another magazine. Preferably one that hold the round parallel to the top of the mag. Then, watch as you cycle the bolt forward and make sure the that bullet is 'riding' the action's feed ramp up & into the chamber...

 

[eodusa]

Looks like the bottom metal was inletted too deep. That is why the mag doesn't lock in - the bolt or receiver is limiting how far upwards you can push. Does the mag freely latch with just the bottom metal? Try putting a washer between pillar and bottom metal to get the right height. This will lower the mag so you don't hit the feed lips. You can then bed the bottom metal with Marinetex if it's too low. Or you can drill out the pillars and put longer ones. The bedding is crucial for the receiver to fit like a glove. The bedding of the bottom metal is to prevent it from bending under the torque of the screws.


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[Sendit6.5]

Good news! Took it over to Hill Country Rifles (who I bought the stock from) and they jumped on the customer service in a BIG way! First off, they offered to have a new stock manufactured that is 100% correct. Since that would take McM another 3-4 months (despite the fact that THEY built it incorrectly) HCR offered to make all the corrections and get the rifle feeding and shooting well. They are very well known in Texas for building extremely accurate hunting and tactical rifles. All the rifles they build come with test groups on the tag and ALL shoot sub .5moa and most of the ones I've seen shoot .25moa or better with a factory ammo. This will include bedding the bottom metal. All this at NO charge.

If they can't make it perfect and and shooting/functioning to their standards, I'd still get a brand new stock. They were very confident, though, that they can get it right; and they said it'd be ready no later than the end of next week. I think that's pretty awesome CS and it really restores my faith in their company.


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[Sendit6.5]

Got the call today that my rifle is ready! They felt so bad about the mix up with my stock that they moved it to the front of the line. The initial test fire, after installing flush cups in the left side, filling the rear sling stud hole, opening the barrel channel a bit (to make it better for shooting long strings) and fitting and bedding the APA RTG bottom metal it shot a couple .7moa groups with factory 143gr ELD-x ammo. That wasn't acceptable. So, they did a little more bedding work to the action and it closed the groups to .35moa with that same factory ammo. That's plenty acceptable to me. Handloading ought to get me inside .25moa which was my target with this build. I've got to say, the customer service at HCR is, hands-down, the best I've experienced from any gunsmith shop from coast to coast.

The only let-down is that they could not get the Curtis Custom (Axiom action maker) 3-round magazine to work. The Accurate-Mag and other AICS mags work fine but not the Curtis. The GS that did the work said that the attachment point on the Curtis mag was very different than the the AccurateMag or AICS mags. This really sux because my idea behind this build was a DBM rifle that could look and function like a traditional hunting rifle when I wanted it to. I'm going to reach out to Chase Curtis to see if swapping to HIS bottom metal will allow me to run his 3-round mag as well as some standard AICS mags. His bottom metal has the same 'Badger m5 footprint' as the APA bottom metal I'm currently running. So, I'm wondering if it's possible to just swap them out without having to do any additional stock work. We'll see.

Other than the bottom metal issue, I'm a pretty excited to pick up the new rifle tomorrow and to start some load development!


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[Keith Johns]

Most of the good DBM systems come with pillars, and those pillar lengths are important. If it hasn't been answered yet, yes the distance(and angle) from action to bottom metal is extremely important and I only like the bottom metal manufacturers that send perfect length pillars with the bottom metal(Badger, Surgeon, APA, and PTG Stealths 99% of the time)


I always suggest using AICS mags over any of the other metal mags. Maybe I'm just biased.
or pmags if you want less expensive plastic. I like plastic mags. I'm not knocking them.