Rifle Scopes FFP vs SFP ?

[EDELWEISS]

Which do you prefer? WHY?

Personally I prefer First Focal Plane optics. Admittedly I don't do much ranging on the fly; but I do like being able to use the ranging scale at whatever power setting Im on when I spot a target.

 

[brianf]

PLEEEEEAAAASSSSEEEEE check the search function (not being a jerk but there are a lot of threads on on this)

there have been mega bites worth of data/posts on this

it comes down to intended use and competency of the user, they both outdo each other when kept in their lane

 

[Supersubes]

Which do you prefer? WHY?

Personally I prefer First Focal Plane optics. Admittedly I don't do much ranging on the fly; but I do like being able to use the ranging scale at whatever power setting Im on when I spot a target.

You’ve come to the very same conclusion as just about everyone else in this discipline.

 

[Dthomas3523]

 

[spife7980]

View attachment 7042089

Thats not true! I did just recently for the first time after reading this article!

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...-range-equations-and-the-math-behind-them.25/

 

[brianf]

i just put a radius LRF on my voduu and set up a few different targets for my kids to laz and shoot.
i kept the green visible on, they loved it
to bad my fifle looks like a cube now lol
AX
vudoo 16"
kahles 10-50 on top
LRF
Bipod
also made a attachment that uses a scope ring to catch the shells so im not cleaning up anymore.

 

[Alphatreedog]

.45ACP .

 

[Bender]

I prefer SFP on my .270, don’t need to hold over. Just hold it on the top shoulder at 600. Nothing beats a .270 with Corelok ammo and a Simmons 3x9. Anything more than that is a waste of money.

 

[Spblademaker]

SFP/MOA on my Delta Five in 6 Dasher. FFP/Mil in my Mossberg 6GT. Anything less would be uncivilized.

 

[Alphatreedog]

I prefer SFP on my .270, don’t need to hold over. Just hold it on the top shoulder at 600. Nothing beats a .270 with Corelok ammo and a Simmons 3x9. Anything more than that is a waste of money.

Ya gotsa git a hayer trigger in sum silva tips .

 

[_Windrider_]

 

[EDELWEISS]

First, apologies for failing to do a search.

As for no one ranging with a reticle anymore, well yes and no. Yes there are laser range finders, and yes they are good enough and cheap enuf' that everyone should have one BUT (big but); theres no substitute for knowing how and being able to range without electronics. At the risk of being call a piñata (again), I started my precision shooting with a Leatherwood ART. The ART did the ranging all you had to do was bracket the target and the scope did the rest. I liked the ART.

Today I still use the reticle to confirm my (unaided) visual "guestimate" then follow up with a laser if necessary and time permits.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

(A) You can't be tacticool w/o FFP
(B) Skill sets are required to be able to range with a SFP scope on any power but what they tell you is correct for that scope.
(C) Either will do the job
(D) Neither are as good as a IPHY FFP
(E) None of the above

 

[beetroot]

MOA is better

 

[Dthomas3523]

First, apologies for failing to do a search.

As for no one ranging with a reticle anymore, well yes and no. Yes there are laser range finders, and yes they are good enough and cheap enuf' that everyone should have one BUT (big but); theres no substitute for knowing how and being able to range without electronics. At the risk of being call a piñata (again), I started my precision shooting with a Leatherwood ART. The ART did the ranging all you had to do was bracket the target and the scope did the rest. I liked the ART.

Today I still use the reticle to confirm my (unaided) visual "guestimate" then follow up with a laser if necessary and time permits.

It’s a legacy skill. Not to mention the lighting, clarity of edges, mirage, etc etc make it a very imprecise method of ranging.

It has now become an emergency situation only skill, and even then its questionable. Especially in a LE situation. Military would be situation dependent, but likely wouldn’t be worth it either.

In this day and age, it would be borderline unethical to take a shot at game at longer distances utilizing the reticle to range. You should have extra batteries. If it’s the hunt of a lifetime, you should have a backup rangefinder.

We only reticle ranges in the past because it was a skill you had no other choice but to use.

You seem to think you have a lot of expertise, but after most of your posts, I would suggest sitting back and reading more. You might learn something.

 

[Dthomas3523]

This is the equivalent of needing to know morse code or smoke signals in case you can’t find a phone.

 

[_Windrider_]

This is the equivalent of needing to know morse code or smoke signals in case you can’t find a phone.

They still send radiomen on the teams to Morse code interceptor schools

 

[Diver160651]

They still send radiomen on the teams to Morse code interceptor schools

Ok and you still need code for advanced ham license— but hell, that might be more relevant than saying you need to range at every “power” or that mil ranging is why we choose FFP scopes. Only people who don’t really use their FFPs think ranging is the driving factor.

In general other than what's today relatively short range, mil ranging doesn’t work very well at all when:

• The range is Long range or ELR on normal targets.
• Mirage or other optical disturbances
• On small objects
• Low power
• When precision is needed.
• When you do not know the size of the target

Years ago when you needed to spend 6-30K for mil grade finders, I understand someone not having a PLRF. Today you can get a PLRF like the Leica with .05 Mil beam that will take you out further than your short action will shoot a normal target, with any reasonable CEP.

 

[Discogodfather]

You shoot SFP for ELR because ranging with a reticle is useless beyond 1500m and because you want a nice thin reticle. I prefer a SFP reticle in an ELR scope that is around .1 moa and below at 100m line thickness. The MOAR-T in my old 5-25 Atacr is .05 moa and the MTR-1 reticle in my March is .04 moa, which is superb. Anything beyond about .25 moa is going to somewhat obscure a man sized target beyond 2500 yards.

For tactical and sub 1500 yards it's all FFP. There has been a push to go FFP in ELR scopes too with manufacturers offering very fine FFP reticles. The P4LF in the Schmidt is a good example.

SFP scopes, especially cheaper ones, have a major optical issue that is usually never discussed outside of F-Class shooting. Basically, they POI shift based on magnification. It's minimized on expensive scopes, but it's still around .25-.5" moa even on the best. Only SFP scope in the world that does not shift is the March EP zoom, which is a dedicated F Class scope. You can learn to predict the shift and most F-Class guys never change magnification during a string.

 

[_Windrider_]

Ok and you still need code for advanced ham license— but hell, that might be more relevant than saying you need to range at every “power” or that mil ranging is why we choose FFP scopes. Only people who don’t really use their FFPs think ranging is the driving factor.

In general other than what's today relatively short range, mil ranging doesn’t work very well at all when:

• The range is Long range or ELR on normal targets.
• Mirage or other optical disturbances
• On small objects
• Low power
• When precision is needed.
• When you do not know the size of the target

Years ago when you needed to spend 6-30K for mil grade finders, I understand someone not having a PLRF. Today you can get a PLRF like the Leica with .05 Mil beam that will take you out further than your short action will shoot a normal target, with any reasonable CEP.

Where did my post go? I guess I deleted it and wasn’t paying attention?

 

[AverageGrunt]

I swear I click on these threads to see what @Bender will say

 

[Diver160651]

You shoot SFP for ELR because ranging with a reticle is useless beyond 1500m and because you want a nice thin reticle. I prefer a SFP reticle in an ELR scope that is around .1 moa and below at 100m line thickness. The MOAR-T in my old 5-25 Atacr is .05 moa and the MTR-1 reticle in my March is .04 moa, which is superb. Anything beyond about .25 moa is going to somewhat obscure a man sized target beyond 2500 yards.

For tactical and sub 1500 yards it's all FFP. There has been a push to go FFP in ELR scopes too with manufacturers offering very fine FFP reticles. The P4LF in the Schmidt is a good example.

SFP scopes, especially cheaper ones, have a major optical issue that is usually never discussed outside of F-Class shooting. Basically, they POI shift based on magnification. It's minimized on expensive scopes, but it's still around .25-.5" moa even on the best. Only SFP scope in the world that does not shift is the March EP zoom, which is a dedicated F Class scope. You can learn to predict the shift and most F-Class guys never change magnification during a string.

Again-ranging is not what today’s scopes are being used for. It is a mistake to even mention this.

Not all ELR is shot at max power in the heat. Sure you might not have an issue shooting across canyons or from an or to an elevated position, but guys prone, on a desert floor, some across vegetation in the east will experience heavy mirage not seen in the other situations.

The same guys that want a thin reticle, or say it is why they must shoot SFP are actually creating a THICKER on target than many FFP once the power is reduced. The P4 fine or thinner USO RDP*, as well as other floating dots, have been pulling ELR duty before the current craze of benchrest turning to ELR and working well.

edited to add: *RDP FULL power or low power the old USO FFP center is .05moa; Were as, a SFP as sighted above is the same when at Max power, Every 5x you back off max, that SFP is 5% THICKER on target, at 15x it is 10% thicker.

Just things to consider..

 

[Discogodfather]

Not all ELR is shot at max power in the heat. Sure you might not have an issue shooting across canyons or from an or to an elevated position, but guys prone, on a desert floor, some across vegetation in the east will experience heavy mirage not seen in the other situations.

Yeah, that is a good point. Never have shot in the desert or extreme heat. My 5-25 Schmidt's P4 F is as fine as any SFP at 15x.

 

[Bender]

Sfp over Ffp?

Do you prefer an pager over a smartphone?

 

[Diver160651]

I think SFP makes sence for non- subtension reticle like a duplex - (of course); but also for the few people shouting PCPs or Heavy Subs like the new 338.. so you can get 3x holds of whatever once you carefully map the reticle at repeatable zoom settings...

Other than those above cases I think the US market sells them because so many people want to be low drag, but don’t have a fucking clue what suntrnsions are primarily used for today.

 

[acudaowner]

have 2 right now in ffp that's the way they were sold , one is non magnifying mil mil ffp and its great the ret is very fine , I think It's a 1/8 th mil free floating dot . love it easy to see and easy to use , never crowded . The other is moa moa with a free floating dot , have a sfp on the way in mil mil sometime this year i hope . think its also 1/8 free floating dot think my next one might be . I find it hard to tell with everyone showing so many nice scopes and all the scopes out there to choose from .

 

[Discogodfather]

When I had my 10-50x 60mm Sightron S3 that I used for a few years for ELR when I was just starting out, I became convinced it was shifting bad. Ended up testing it at 100, and sure enough it was shifting about 3 minutes from top mag to bottom. The Schmidt 12-50 did it about .5 moa. The March 10-60 x56mm HM does it at an amazing .25", maybe a little less.

Why do SFP's shift? Maybe DLO could explain it, are you there Illya?

 

[mdmp5]

There is a huge dichotomy on the topic. Anyone in PRS or pseudo PRS will say they wouldn’t be caught dead with an SFP. Guys in F class will say they wouldn’t be caught dead with an FFP. Of course there are the few exceptions but that’s the story for the most part

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Laughing at some of this B/S. Like mijp5 said it depends on your shooting style on what you like to use. However many forget a LRF, like tracers, points both ways. If you think you can buy in, with tacticool, go for it. Just wait for the day the target is not a cave dweller an is shooting back

 

[Spblademaker]

Probably why I haven’t given away my mildot master.

 

[DaleGribble82]

I prefer SFP on my .270, don’t need to hold over. Just hold it on the top shoulder at 600. Nothing beats a .270 with Corelok ammo and a Simmons 3x9. Anything more than that is a waste of money.

Yeah I agree.

 

[EDELWEISS]

It’s a legacy skill. Not to mention the lighting, clarity of edges, mirage, etc etc make it a very imprecise method of ranging.

It has now become an emergency situation only skill, and even then its questionable. Especially in a LE situation. Military would be situation dependent, but likely wouldn’t be worth it either.

In this day and age, it would be borderline unethical to take a shot at game at longer distances utilizing the reticle to range. You should have extra batteries. If it’s the hunt of a lifetime, you should have a backup rangefinder.

We only reticle ranges in the past because it was a skill you had no other choice but to use.

You seem to think you have a lot of expertise, but after most of your posts, I would suggest sitting back and reading more. You might learn something.

Legacy Skill--YEP no argument there. Necessary, Hmmmm? Well maybe not. Good to know YES.

Emergency Skill--Yeah at best; but maybe its more of a youre better for knowing how to do it, and weaker for not (kinda like knowing Latin and Morse Code--I do both BTW). I think I mentioned in the first post that I don't use it much but when I do I like that its a fast check.

Unethical--WHO said anything about shooting game at longer ranges? What I said was using it as a tool to confirm a visual (naked eye) "guestimate"

Experience and Reading--First I here to learn. Im willing to read and learn. Conversely Im NOT sure Im interested in listening when Im told my questions are stupid ESPECIALLY when my question was about your preference and why? ...and as to experience, Im experienced enough to admit that I can still learn. THATS why Im here, asking questions then sifting the knowledge from the chafe



I really don't want another pissing contest. I think Ive heard what you guys are saying.

 

[RNWRKNP]

Panning for gold brother. Seperate what is useful and toss the rest out?

 

[HogsLife]

 

[Loonhunter]

Ffp is better.
It has to be cause it’s more expensive.
I have a fixed power scope in ffp.
It wasn’t cheap.

 

[HogsLife]

Ffp is better.
It has to be cause it’s more expensive.
I have a fixed power scope in ffp.
It wasn’t cheap.

Bahahahahaha

 

[Diver160651]

Laughing at some of this B/S. Like mijp5 said it depends on your shooting style on what you like to use. However many forget a LRF, like tracers, points both ways. If you think you can buy in, with tacticool, go for it. Just wait for the day the target is not a cave dweller an is shooting back

Nobody saying you can't range with subtensions, but that's NOT the main use today.. Wind, comunication and drop; with wind bing the most used especially with the explosion of great .2 mil hashes available.

I ranged plenty with Thermal and NV and once again just like mirage the targets don't show their true size. Sure close enough on a 6' soft target up close. If your truly worried about NV and that is why you are promoting SFP with subtensions, then change the wavelength..

Even after all that, sure, I'll still estimate range thru the glass, so I am not ranging is dead just not the main use for most precision rifle shooters.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Believe it or not we ranged with a duplex long ago then used the SFP's power in reverse for hold overs,... does it work? Yes it does, an very well I might add for minute of chest w/o issue.

 

[Diver160651]

one is non magnifying mil mil ffp

What in heck is fixed FFP?

 

[Diver160651]

Believe it or not we ranged with a duplex long ago then used the SFP's power in reverse for hold overs,... does it work? Yes it does, an very well I might add for minute of chest w/o issue.

~ We are kinda talking to different sides..

You're talking about dedicating time and resources to learn and make work the tools for ranging and I am talking about the reality that most shooters today are not focused on that skill set.

I agree with you that reticle mapping and skills make anything work. That in "some conditions" like trying to make the new 338 sub go to 700m (E>500lbs - plenty for a soft target) and need 30mils of drop or with long range PCPs; that using the SPF, mapping & truing a zoom ratio, probably are the best choice. But this is a such a tiny % of the use..

My point -Antidotal at best. Many start out getting a Scope in SPF with subtensions, because they think it is high speed. They never really understand the full use of subtensions, communication, wind or in some cases how they even work. They more often than not "think in, on target linear measurements" - converting back and forth, instead of thinking simply in scope units/angular measurement. Many of these shooters will NEVER take the time to map their reticles (true the zoom ratio markings), probably never trued the turrets and never really practice ranging. Those that dive deeper into precision long range rifle, will find the desire to sell off their SFP especially once attending matches where the MD makes the rules, time is limited and any bits of communication become key.

 

[koshkin]

When I had my 10-50x 60mm Sightron S3 that I used for a few years for ELR when I was just starting out, I became convinced it was shifting bad. Ended up testing it at 100, and sure enough it was shifting about 3 minutes from top mag to bottom. The Schmidt 12-50 did it about .5 moa. The March 10-60 x56mm HM does it at an amazing .25", maybe a little less.

Why do SFP's shift? Maybe DLO could explain it, are you there Illya?

Sure. I'll do a video on that.

Ilya

 

[Mute]

Yes we love our FFP reticles, but if you're shooting at known distance targets and your only objective is to shoot the tiniest groups possible, there is something to be said for SFP reticles.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

~ We are kinda talking to different sides..

You're talking about dedicating time and resources to learn and make work the tools for ranging and I am talking about the reality that most shooters today are not focused on that skill set.

I agree with you that reticle mapping and skills make anything work. That in "some conditions" like trying to make the new 338 sub go to 700m (E>500lbs - plenty for a soft target) and need 30mils of drop or with long range PCPs; that using the SPF, mapping & truing a zoom ratio, probably are the best choice. But this is a such a tiny % of the use..

My point -Antidotal at best. Many start out getting a Scope in SPF with subtensions, because they think it is high speed. They never really understand the full use of subtensions, communication, wind or in some cases how they even work. They more often than not "think in, on target linear measurements" - converting back and forth, instead of thinking simply in scope units/angular measurement. Many of these shooters will NEVER take the time to map their reticles (true the zoom ratio markings), probably never trued the turrets and never really practice ranging. Those that dive deeper into precision long range rifle, will find the desire to sell off their SFP especially once attending matches where the MD makes the rules, time is limited and any bits of communication become key.

Hence the different worlds shooters come from, an operate in.
I was taught it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools. Instead of learning their tool many just try an buy in. In the sub world I shoot in, SFP is all I use. I'm down to one FFP scope an it sees no use anymore as everything other than that one is SFP, with them all being 3.5X10X40 with moa tree rets. Nothing to relearn on the fly besides remembering what the chamber'ing is.

 

[Diver160651]

Hence the different worlds shooters come from, an operate in.
I was taught it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools. Instead of learning their tool many just try an buy in. In the sub world I shoot in, SFP is all I use. I'm down to one FFP scope an it sees no use anymore as everything other than that one is SFP, with them all being 3.5X10X40 with moa tree rets. Nothing to relearn on the fly besides remembering what the chamber'ing is.

Ya, like I mentioned subs - but again, long range subs are a very, very small segment.. Maybe it will grow when they get projectiles to open, yet survive rapid twists and barrels all get sorted for the 8.6 blackout (alluded to earlier).

 

[1J04]

Glock fo da win?

Oh, and by the way, that photo is total BS. Those lens covers NEVER stay together on them Sparcs. False advertising..........

 

[Loonhunter]

I’ll stick with my Tasco until Creedmoor makes a scope.

 

[Diver160651]

Glock fo da win?

View attachment 7042809



Oh, and by the way, that photo is total BS. Those lens covers NEVER stay together on them Sparcs. False advertising..........

What end is the front?????????

 

[Loonhunter]

What end is the front?????????

I wondered that too. It needs a bayonet.

 

[1J04]

What end is the front?????????

You don't have to ask the hard questions Brother. I dunno. I just dunno.

 

[Gunfighter14e2]

Ya, like I mentioned subs - but again, long range subs are a very, very small segment..

In today's world yes, but tomorrow is coming. Like many I hate fighting the coming events with tactics an gear from the last game of tag,... Subs have been used in past games but the next one will likely see a much higher percentage being used if for nothing else the shock effect. If it's on our own dirt between present day folks they will quickly turn the tables,...