Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

NorCal Vu

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 20, 2004
1,154
164
Sacramento Area
All,

After shooting in a HP/F-Class event this past weekend, a few guys and I came up with this concept.

There is a core group of shooters that are stuck between WFO TAC Precision Rifle matches and F-Class/HP matches.

I believe this concept will bring more shooters on the line and will help funnel shooters into either hardcore HP/F-Class competition or hardcore Tac Precision rifle comps. Either way, it will grow precision rifle shooting.

There are only a handful of facilities in the country that can host a TAC rifle match; however there are many HP ranges that can accommodate the format in this concept.

This concept is designed with the tactical precision rifle and shooter in mind.

The regulations and rules are put in place so that we do not confuse an F-TR rifle or Open rifle with a TAC rig.

There are still details and bugs that need to be worked out. NCPPRC will probably host a few of these to see what type of response we get and go from there.

If any other match directors out there think they would be interested in getting this going on their range. Please PM me, lets put our heads together and see what we can get rolling.

For those with Adobe Acrobat Reader, please down load the document here.

http://ncpprc.com/FPRConcept.pdf



Field Precision Rifle Class (FPR) Limited & Open Overview

F-Precision Rifle Limited Equipment Rules:
• Gas Operated or Bolt Action Scoped Rifle
• Bolt Action Rifles must be repeater type of action. No single shot actions.
• Caliber limited to 308win or 223 (Unmodified)
• 308win bullet weight will be limited to 168gn to 178gn
• 223rem bullet weight will be limited to 92gn maximum.
• Barrels are limited to 26” maximum.
o Length will be measured from recoil lug to front end of muzzle or brake on bolt action rifles.
o Length will be measured from the rear of the barrel nut, float tube, or rail attachment nut to front end of muzzle or brake on semi autos.
• Brakes are allowed. The competitor is responsible for mitigating muzzle blast and debris. (Provisional)
• Rifle weight limit of 17lbs with Bi-Pod attached. (Weight includes any accessories attached to the rifle)
• Bi-pod will have a weight limit of 20oz maximum. All bipods must have folding legs.

F-Precision Rifle Open Equipment Rules:
• Gas Operated or Bolt Action Scoped Rifle
• Bolt Action Rifles must have a repeater action. No single shot actions.
• Caliber Limited to 6mm to 338cal without bullet weight limitation
• Barrels are limited to 28” maximum.
o Length will be measured from recoil lug to the front of the muzzle or brake on bolt action rifles.
o Length will be measured from the rear of the barrel nut, float tube, or rail attachment nut to the front end of the muzzle or brake on semi auto rifles.
• Brakes are allowed. The competitor is responsible for mitigating muzzle blast and debris. (Provisional)
• Rifle weight limit of 18lbs with Bi-Pod attached. (Weight includes any accessories attached to the rifle)
• Bi-pod will have a weight limit of 20oz maximum. All bipods must have folding legs.


Feeding of Rounds:
• All ammo must be fed from a magazine, mag well, or blind magazine.


Optics:
• Optics will be restricted to a magnification of 1X to 25X maximum


Rear Rest for Both Classes:
• Must not weigh more than 2lbs.
• Shooting gloves are permitted.
• Monopods are not permitted.

Courses of Fire:

Mid Range COF
• 15 rounds @ 300 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.
• 15 rounds @ 500 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.
• 15 rounds @ 600 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.

Long Range COF
• 15 rounds @ 800 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.
• 15 rounds @ 900 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.
• 15 rounds @ 1000 yards with 2 convertible sighters in 15 minutes.

Targets:
• We will use the current targets standards as F-Class uses at the given distances.



22. Field Precision RIFLE RULES (Field Precision Rifle)
Conventional Long Range Competition
NOTE: these rules are provided for the conduct of F-Tactical competition either separately or in conjunction with conventional NRA Long Range rifle competition. Scores fired in these competitions using the F-class modified targets will be used for classification. In all cases where specific rules are not given here, the appropriate rules for High Power Rifle competition shall be used.

3. EQUIPMENT AND AMMUNITION

3.4 Field Precision Rifle Rules -

(a) Field Precision Rifle Open (FPR-O) - A rifle restricted to a bore diameter no larger than .338 caliber. (Attention is directed to safety fan limitations of various ranges. Individual ranges may further restrict ammunition). The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Only magnified optic sighting systems are permitted, and will be included in the rifles overall weight.

The provisions of Rules 3.16 and 3.16.1 apply to this definition.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as optics and bipod, must not exceed 8.2
kilograms (approximately 18 pounds). An “attachment” also includes any external object, other that the
competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the firing of the rifle from the rests).

(2) The width of the rifle’s fore end shall not exceed 76mm (approximately 3 inches).

(3) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle rests as defined in Rule 3.4.1.

(4) All ammunition must be fed from the magazine, magazine well or blind magazine.

(b) Field Precision Rifle Limited (FPR-L) - A rifle restricted to the chambers of unmodified .308 Winchester/7.62mm NATO or unmodified .223 Remington/5.56mm X 45 NATO cartridge cases. The rifle must be fired off a bipod, rigidly attached to the rifle’s for-end, and/or a sling. Any bipod, meeting the definition of a bipod, may be used but its weight must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. Any safe, manually operated trigger is permitted. Only magnified optic sighting systems are permitted, and will be included in the rifles overall weight.

(1) The rifle’s overall weight, including all attachments such as sights, sling and bipod, must not exceed 7.7 kilograms (approximately 17 pounds). An “attachment” also includes any external object, other
than the competitor and apparel, which recoils or partially recoils with the rifle, or which is clamped, held, or joined in any way to the rifle for each shot, or which even slightly raises with the lifting of the rifle from its rest/firing point.

(2) The rifle must be fired in the prone position from the shoulder of the competitor using rifle as defined in
3.4.1

(3) 308 Winchester/7.62 NATO will have a bullet weight limitation of 168gn to 178gn bullets only.

(4) 223 Remington/5.56x45 NATO will have a bullet weight limitation of 92gns maximum.

(5) All ammunition must have the capability of feeding from the magazine system of the competitors rifle.

3.4.1 Rifle Rests -

Field Precision Rifle Rests - A bipod the only allowed front supports for the F-TR rifle. The rifle may be supported by a bipod and a rear support which provide no positive mechanical method for returning it to its precise point of aim for the prior shot. Subject to:

(1) The bipod and rear support may not be attached to each other.

(2) The use of any form of a table is prohibited. This discipline is a modification of high power prone shooting, not a form of bench rest and should not be construed as such.

Disabled competitors may apply to the NRA Protest Committee for appropriate dispensation.
The intent of this rule is to prevent the use of a table type device.

(3) A bipod is a device with no more than two legs that touch the firing point. It must be rigidly attached to the fore end of the rifle. The bipod must have folding legs, and may be adjustable to compensate
for the uneven surface of the firing point. The maximum weight limit of the bi-pod will be 20oz.

(4) No portion of the rifle’s butt or fore end shall rest directly on the ground or any hard surface. A rear rabbit eared bag, small sandbag or a gloved hand may be used to support the rifle’s butt. Any rear support employed shall not be attached, clamped or held to the rifle in any manner. The rear support may not be fixed to or protrude into the firing point. Mechanically adjustable rear support is not allowed.

(5) Any number or type of objects may be placed beneath the bipod or rear support, to compensate for variations in height or slope of the firing point.

(6) The bipod and rear rest may be adjusted after any shot to compensate for rest movement or settling.

3.4.2 Optics –

Field Precision Rifle optics are restricted to 1X – 25X magnification power ranges only.

4. TARGETS
NOTE: F-Class Target Centers are to be used with MR-63, MR-65, MR-1 and LR targets for all F-Class
shooting. When pasted onto the above mentioned targets the scoring will be conducted as follows: the new X-rings are valued 10-X. The old X-ring becomes the new 10-ring, the old 10-ring becomes the new 9-ring, etc.

4.4 300 Yard Target -
NRA No.MR-63FC - F-Class Target Center based on the MR-63 target for use at 300 yards. To be pasted over the MR-63 target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring 1.42”
10 ring 2.85”
9 ring 5.85”
8 ring 8.85”
7 ring 11.85”
6 ring 17.85”
5 ring 23.85”

4.5 500 Yard Target -
NRA No.MR-65FC - F-Class target Center based on the MR-65 target for use at 500 yards. To be pasted over the MR-65 target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring 2.50
10 ring 5.00
9 ring 10.00
8 ring 15.00
7 ring 20.00
6 ring 25.00
5 ring 30.00



4.6 600 Yard Targets –
NRA No.MR-1FC - F-Class target Center based on the MR-1 target for use at 600 yards. To be pasted over the MR-1 target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring 3.00
10 ring 6.00
9 ring 12.00
8 ring 18.00
7 ring 24.00
6 ring 36.00
5 ring 48.00
4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target
NRA No LRFC - F-Class Target Center based on the LR target for use at 1000 yards. To be pasted over the LR target.

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in white (inches)
X ring 5.00
10 ring 10.00
9 ring 20.00
8 ring 30.00
7 ring 44.00
6 ring 60.00
5 area 72”x72” Square

5. POSITIONS

5.6.1 FRP Class Prone – FPR Class Prone is fired from the prone position from the shoulder. The rifle may be
supported with a rear and/or front rest or with a bipod and/or sling and rear rest (See Rule 3.4.1).


7. COURSES OF FIRE

Position No. of Shots Type of Fire Distance Target
7.14 Prone 15 or 20 Slow 300 yards MR-63/wMR-63FC
7.15 Prone 15 or 20 Slow 500 yards MR-65/wMR-65FC
7.16 Prone 15 or 20 Slow 600 yards MR-1/wMR-1FC
7.17 Prone 15 or 20 Slow 800, 900 or 1000 yards LR/wLRFC


7.18 F-Tactical Regional Course (90 shots):
Day 1 COF 7.19 Mid Range Prone Course (45 Shots)
Day 2 COF 7.20 Long Range Prone Course (45 Shots)

7.19 F-Tactical Mid-Range Prone Course (45 shots):

Position No. of Shots Type of Fire Distance Target
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 300 yards MR-63/wMR-63FC
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 500 yards MR-65/wMR-65FC
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 600 yards MR-1/wMR-1FC

7.20 F-Tactical Long-Range Prone Course (45 shots)

Position No. of Shots Type of Fire Distance Target
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 800 yards LR/wLRFC
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 900 yards LR/wLRFC
Prone 15 or 20 Slow 1000 yards LR/wLRFC

9.1 Changing Rifle - A competitor may change rifles to another of the same or different caliber only between fired matches or between stages of a multiple stage match even if these stages are included in an aggregate match. A competitor may not change his or her rifle during the firing of a single stage unless it has become disabled and has been so designated by the Chief Range Officer. For the purpose of this rule, the firing of a stage is considered to have started when the competitor has fired his or her first record shot. A claim that a rifle is disabled must be made immediately. All shots fired up to the time that the claim is made will stand as part of the official score. (See Ruled 10.9 and 10.10.)

17. NATIONAL RECORDS
Note: National F-Class High Power Rifle Records are maintained for both the F-Class Open and F-Class TRas defined in Rules 3.4(a) and (b) for scores fired over the following courses for “Open”, “Police”, “Service”, Civilian”, “Women”, “Junior”, “Senior”, and “Grand Senior” categories fired on targets indicated for any sights. The “Service category includes Regular Service, Reserve Components and National Guard. In order for records to be recognized promptly, National Record Reporting forms must be submitted to NRA by the Statistical Officer of the tournament in which they were fired, after being certified by the Jury or Referee. National Record Reporting forms are mailed to sponsors of NRA Registered Tournaments by NRA Headquarters.

Unlimited sighting shots shall be fired and recorded in courses of fire described in Rules 17.5.1(g) and (h).

Two sighters will be optional in course of fire (j), and two sighters shall be fired and recorded in each stage of all other listed courses of fire. Team matches may be fired without sighters.

Range Target Total Shots Course
A 300 yards MR-63/wMR-63FC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
B 300 yards MR-63/wMR-63FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
C 500 yards MR-65/wMR-65FC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
D 500 yards MR-65/wMR-65FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
E 600 yards MR-1/wMR-1FC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
F 600 yards MR-1/wMR-1FC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
G 1000 yards LR/wLRFC 15 15 shots slow fire, prone
H 1000 yards LR/wLRFC 20 20 shots slow fire, prone
I F-Tactical Long Range COF (45 rds total)
800 yards
900 yards
1000 yards
LR/wLRFC
LR/wLRFC
LR/wLRFC
15
15
15
15 shots slow fire, prone
15 shots slow fire, prone
15 shots slow fire, prone
J F-Tactical Mid Range COF (45 rds total)
300 yards
500 yards
600 yards
MR-63/wMR-63FC
MR-65/wMR-65FC
MR-1/wMR-1FC
15
15
15
15 shots slow fire, prone
15 shots slow fire, prone
15 shots slow fire, prone
K The current National Championship Aggregate course
L Team Matches – Four man team matches fired over the course described in terms (d), (f), (h), (i) and (j)





19. NATIONAL Field Precision Rifle Open and Limited Classification

19.5.1 Courses of Fire Used for F-Tactical Open and Limited Long Range Prone Classification

800, 900, or 1000 Yards

Target: LR/wLRFC, slow fire, 15 or 20 shots, prone

F-Tactical Long Range Course (45 shots)

800 yds: Target, LR/wLRFC, slow fire, 15 shots, prone
900 yds: Target, LR/wLRFC, slow fire, 15 shots, prone
1000 yds: Target, LR/wLRFC, slow fire, 15 shots, prone

19.5.2 Courses of Fire Used for Mid-Range Field Precision Rifle Open and Limited Classification

300 Yards
Target: MR-63/wMR-63FC, slow fire, 15 or 20 shots, prone

500 Yards
Target: MR-65/wMR-65FC, slow fire, 15 or 20 shots, prone

600 Yards
Target: MR-1/wMR-1FC, slow fire, 15 or 20 shots, prone

19.15 Individual F-Class Averages - Competitors classified or reclassified on the basis of scores fired under the conditions specified in Rule 19.4 reduced to 10 shot averages, those averages leading to classifications as shown in Table III below:

Table III

Individual F-Class
High Master 98.00 and above
Master 96.50 to 97.99
Expert 94.00 to 96.49
Sharpshooter 91.50 to 93.99
Marksman Below 91.50


Field Precision Rifle Class (FPR) Question and Answers

Q. What is the purpose of this?

A. The short and simple answer is to promote the shooting sports and get more shooters on the line. Tactical/Practical precision rifle competition is the fastest growing rifle discipline in this country right now. Our club runs 40 + shooters on average on match days, and an additional 30 + shooters through on our practice day prior to our match. 70 + shooters on a weekend is the norm for us. Why not tap into this core of shooters?

There is a big core of shooters that are in between hardcore tac rifle competition and tradition HP and F-Class competition. We can use this venue as a funnel point to gather shooters and let them decide where they would like to take their shooting careers. There will be a portion that says “you know, I really dig F-Class, I am going to shoot F-TR or F-Open. The others will say, “now that I have had more time behind my rifle at distance, I am ready and comfortable to get into tac precision matches where they run and gun”.

Our practice sessions every month is like a mini F-Class match. It consist of 10 minutes of live fire at each distance. Everything is shot from prone at slow fire. Each round is pulled and mark just like in HP. Last month we had 40 guys come out, a lot of them I never see at our tac matches ever. Why not give these guys a place to compete, have fun, and in turn raise support and funds for the HP and F-Class programs out there?

Q. Why not just shoot F-TR or F-Open?

A. Let’s talk about the equipment involved, and the difference between an F-TR/Open and a tactical/practical field rifle.

1. F-Open basically employs a benchrest gun that is shot from a benchrest type of front rest off the ground.

2. F-TR basically employs a Palma rifle with a high powered scope on top.

3. Could a person come out and shoot their tactical/practical rifle in an F-Class match now? Sure, however they have a snowballs chance in hell with being competitive. My 260rem tac rifle vs. a true F-Open rig is like putting a NASCAR up against a Formula 1 car.

There is huge difference in equipment used between F-TR/Open and a tactical/practical rifles. Why not get more shooters on the line by creating a venue where those with tactical/practical rifles can compete in their own arena.

Think about the average cost of an F-TR/Open rifle + the accessories and reloading hardware. Yes, I know there is the Savage FTR 308win for around 1100.00, but reality is the majority of FT-R rigs are custom built. We won’t even bother discussing what a F-Open rig cost with all the bells and whistles.

Below are the reasons I believe why the tac/practical precision rifle discipline has grown the way it has the last several years:

• Lower start up cost.
• Factory ammo and rifles can be used, yet still be competitive.
• High CDI (chicks dig it) factor. It is the IN thing right now.

Q. Why limit it to 168gn to 178gn bullets only.

A. There is already a venue for the 155s, it is in F-TR. Let’s face it, the 155gn Scenar pushed to 2950 or 3000 FPS + puts the 175gn and 178gn bullets to shame at 800 yards and beyond.
One of the main reasons of the FPR class is to allow those that shoot factory Federal Gold 175s to come out and have a good time, and yet still be competitive. And yes, 168s make it out to 1K if pushed correctly. However I expect the majority of shooters will push 175gn SMKs or 178gn AMAXs. This levels the playing field for the FPR Limited class.

Q. What’s up with the 2lb weight limit on the rear rest?

A. I weighed all the bean bags I have used for tac rifle competitions, and the heaviest one is 1lbs 14oz. No one carries a 6lb bunny ear support around in tac rifle matches. I am trying to stay as true to the tactical precision rifle theme as possible.

Q. Why is there a weight limit on bi-pods? Why do their legs have to fold?

A. Simple. It is to keep guys from using those “sled” type of bi-pods. The traditional Harris 6”-9” or 9”-13” is the industry standard in the tac precision rifle game. Once again, just trying to stay as true as possible to the tac precision rifle theme.

Q. How did you come up with a 17.0lb right weight limit for FPR-Limited, and 18lbs for FPR-Open?

A. I weighed my 260rem by KMW. It has a Krieger #10 MTU, McMillan A5 stock (regular fill) and a 5-25X Premier scope. My mount and base are by Badger Ordnance, and made of steel. With my Harris 6-9 w/Pod-Lok, TAB sling, and Eagle stock pack, the rifle came in right under 17lbs.
For FPR-Open, I took into consideration of the extra 2” of barrel allowed.
Not too many rifles weighing in more than 18lbs in the tac precision rifle game.

Q. Why a 26” and 28” barrel length limitation?

A. Again, trying to keep things as close as possible with the tac precision rifle theme.

Q. Will a 175gn make it out to 1K using such short barrels?

A. Sure will. Our group has a guy running 175s with 18.5” barrel out to 1K in the warmer months.

Q. What’s up with feeding from the magazine, mag well or blind magazine only rule?

A. Again, we are staying true to the tac rifle game as much as possible. This rule keeps that “gamer” from loading rounds out long to cram more powder in to gain a lil bit of an edge. If a shooter has to single load due to his round not fitting into a magazine, it turns his rifle into a single shot. We don’t ever run single shots in tac precision rifle comps.

Q. Why limit the power range from 1X to 25X only for this class?

A. Again, staying true to the tac precision game. It would be safe to say that 99% of tac rifle shooters, do not run above 25X.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Looks like a good idea and well thought out. Anything to get more people shooting always is. Good job Vu.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Vu,
Looks like a very well thoughtout criteria. Just wondering, if you have weighed an AIAW recently. With fully loaded, it may be a bit over the 17lbs limit. Just a thought.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Looks very cool Vu. I like the faq question of "how did you come up witht he Ltd weight restriction?....I weighed my rifle" part.

Kang, looks like the AIAW would probably land you in Open (where AIAW's should be, IMHO).
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Guys,

Since this is a work in progress there will be some tweaks.

I posted it here to see what you guys have to say about it and if there is any real interest.

Once we gain enough interest I will do the research to make the playing field as level as possible.

There is already a wide open Formula 1 race, its F-OPEN.

Indy would be F-TR, which is a tricked out palma rig with a scope.

Then this would be NASCAR, level things out and lets see who the best driver is.

I will need everyone's help once the hardcore data collection begins such as rifle weight.

Thank you,

Vu
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys,

Since this is a work in progress there will be some tweaks.

I posted it here to see what you guys have to say about it and if there is any real interest.

Once we gain enough interest I will do the research to make the playing field as level as possible.

There is already a wide open Formula 1 race, its F-OPEN.

Indy would be F-TR, which is a tricked out palma rig with a scope.

Then this would be NASCAR, level things out and lets see who the best driver is.

I will need everyone's help once the hardcore data collection begins such as rifle weight.

Thank you,

Vu</div></div>

Vu,

I really like your work on this and I think it would add more people to the shooting sports. Thank you for the work on this. My questiion is, how would a MD or RO police the bullet specs (168-175, and 92) for the limited class? Now that I think about it, it's all on the honor system anyway. Someone "could" shoot a 7-08 during F-TR and who'd know? I like the idea very much and thanks again for the work.

SK
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Vu -

Looks great! Very well developed concept and the fact that you have it down on paper is huge.

As far as tweaks on specifics ... any thoughts on secondary aiming devices (ie the mini burris or docter red dots) some guys are running on their rigs to aid in target acquisition? Will those be allowed in any class or just open class?

I'm sure you'll get some great feedback here on the hide ... with that feedback and the subsequent minor tweaks I think you're definitely onto something here. Let me know if I can help with the data collection (rifle weights, etc).

Thanks for your efforts!

Bear
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Bear,

Sorry for the delay. This concept is for mid to LR precision shooting so I don't see too many guys rolling with red dots. Minimum distance would be 200yards on out.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

I think I'll stay in my own back yard and play my game.

We have some old timers who hate us, mostly due to being ignorant and stuck in their NRA rules. They hate muzzle devices and won't let us shoot as well.

Now let me say too that Vu has a great idea, but some ranges are too old school to have that done.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Looks great.

The only things I would question are:

No mono-pods, but gloves are OK? If these are field rifles, I would think it should be the other way around.

Why so limited on the bullet weight for 308? No 155s or 185s.

Rifle weight may be a tad low. If the only rifle someone has is an AI in 308, that limits them to competeing against the highBC guys in open.

This is a cool idea. We run a modified F Class comp at the local range. Most of the guys there are running tactical rifles.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Vu -

Copy all -- I was just thinking through some of the gear I've seen mounted on rifles at tactical competitions ... I know the red dots aren't generally used to shoot, but just to get the scope in the right area to aid in target acq. Probably not really useful or advantageous if you're shooting at the same target all day long (e.g. an F-Class style match). But I've heard they're pretty handy for the competitions where targets are up in the hills, partially hidden by vegetation, etc.

Again - great work on heading up this effort. My bad for throwing something useless into the conversation.

Bear
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bear,

Sorry for the delay. This concept is for mid to LR precision shooting so I don't see too many guys rolling with red dots. Minimum distance would be 200yards on out. </div></div>
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Scottmilk9</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think I'll stay in my own back yard and play my game.

We have some old timers who hate us, mostly due to being ignorant and stuck in their NRA rules. They hate muzzle devices and won't let us shoot as well.

Now let me say too that Vu has a great idea, but some ranges are too old school to have that done. </div></div>

Scott,

No doubt brother, no doubt at all. I have run into the same mindset on other forums.

We have been VERY lucky to have a HP/F-Class match director that is open minded to our rifle platforms.

To me, its hard to argue the fact that tac precision rifle is one of the fastest growing disciplines in the country at this time. While a monthly HP and F-Class match may pull 20 to 30 shooters for two days. We pull 40 on a practice day and almost 50 on a match day.

It is mind blowing that some old timers rather see their sport die, than to encourage more LR precision shooters to get on the line, regaurdless of what type of rifle they shoot. Instead of coming up with solutions, I get the "take your ball and go some where else, you don't fit in here" type of attitude.

Either way Scott, we are (hopefully with our HP/F-Class groups help) start to put on trial runs in 2011. Only time will tell if there is a demand for this. We do not need the NRA to bless this. Any MD that has access to a range can run this format.

Vu
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Vu.....this looks exactly like what things down here have been morphing into. We did a "Mid-range" clinic last weekend at Palo Alto for guys who want to shoot at 600yds, but don't quite want to compete in F-T/R or F-open and ended up having MUCH more interest than we would have thought. Would it be ok if I posted this up in our local forum to gauge interest into this match format?
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Keep this simple and use what you would find in the field...
Use the same equipment that you would use on a stalk or while hunting.

What happens the average new guy shows up to a match and he finds out he needs to buy $500 worth of monopods and bi pods and any other sights and gear just to almost get started he loses interest in a hurry.

You also might consider a class system. I am more familiar with the classes in trap shooting. They go on a average, the higher your average the higher the class you shoot in. You don't need the new guy shooting against the top dogs. This also causes the new guy to loose interest, if he never stands a chance of winning.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Looks great.

The only things I would question are:

No mono-pods, but gloves are OK? If these are field rifles, I would think it should be the other way around.

Why so limited on the bullet weight for 308? No 155s or 185s.

Rifle weight may be a tad low. If the only rifle someone has is an AI in 308, that limits them to competeing against the highBC guys in open.

This is a cool idea. We run a modified F Class comp at the local range. Most of the guys there are running tactical rifles. </div></div>


Once we start to dig down into the fine details, we will weigh more rifles to see where we stand with factory 308win rigs such as the AIAWs.

Mono-pods was something that was not allowed in F-TR so I decided to keep it out for now.

155s are allowed. Shoot them in open. Sorry, but a 155 or 185 zipped hard is a heavy 260rem =)

My goal is to keep the Limited class, that, limited. The average guy that has a M700 5R can come out with his 175s and play in an equal playing field. Also, military and LE shooters can also come out and shoot with their factory ammo as well and still be competitive. My reasoning behind the madness is not to be a restrictive asshole, but to encourage as many trigger pullers as possible to get out there.
grin.gif


With everything, things will evolve and change. If change is needed in any of the areas you have mentioned, those changes will happen naturally.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ritten</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Vu.....this looks exactly like what things down here have been morphing into. We did a "Mid-range" clinic last weekend at Palo Alto for guys who want to shoot at 600yds, but don't quite want to compete in F-T/R or F-open and ended up having MUCH more interest than we would have thought. Would it be ok if I posted this up in our local forum to gauge interest into this match format? </div></div>

Ritten,

That's great to hear. We did a clinic this past weekend as well. Max out the range with 50 shooters, 35 people didn't get in due our range capacity.

We are finding the same things as you are, there is a huge group that are not ready to jump in the mix with F-Class, and also not ready to run and gun at tac matches.

This format would be a great funnel for both arenas.

Vu
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

How freakin cool is that! That FPR class sounds like a perfect match for my stick and provide an equal playing field as you mentioned. This sounds great Vu! Now I just need to be able to hit what I'm shooting at....details, details, details...hahahaha!

I'll hop on your guys website to see when the next practice session is coming up.

Thanks bub,

-Pat
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No mono-pods, but gloves are OK? If these are field rifles, I would think it should be the other way around.

</div></div>

Because all the Cal guys use mitts instead of rear bags. Ever seen an epileptic doing his stuff? That's pretty much what happens when you remove a mitt from a Cali shooter
wink.gif
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gugubica</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

No mono-pods, but gloves are OK? If these are field rifles, I would think it should be the other way around.

</div></div>

Because all the Cal guys use mitts instead of rear bags. Ever seen an epileptic doing his stuff? That's pretty much what happens when you remove a mitt from a Cali shooter
wink.gif
</div></div>

LOL quoted for truth!
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

LOL dyam bro.

I hate it when you guys lump us with so cal. Its only there that they don't allow rear bags, but mitts.

We NOR CAL guys, use rear bags and even some mono pods. However the mono pod is rare.

Vu
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because all the Cal guys use mitts instead of rear bags. Ever seen an epileptic doing his stuff? That's pretty much what happens when you remove a mitt from a Cali shooter
wink.gif
</div></div>

That's so not true.
There's one precision rifle match in california where you can't use a rear bag.

I'm pretty sure that AZ does not even allow bolt guns in their precision rifle matches.
I went to a precision rifle match in phoenix last weekend and they made me shoot an AR.
Take the AR away from an Arizona precision rifle shooter and he starts shaking like an epileptic!
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I hate it when you guys lump us with so cal. Its only there that they don't allow rear bags, but mitts.</div></div>

I hate it when you norcal guys lump us so-cal guys with Mark.
Mark's match is the ONLY so-cal precision rifle match that does not allow rear bags.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 2156SMK</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I went to a precision rifle match in phoenix last weekend and they made me shoot an AR.
Take the AR away from an Arizona precision rifle shooter and he starts shaking like an epileptic! </div></div>

Brother, we just did the AR thing because we heard you were coming to town!


I think a Field Precision Rifle class would be cool, but it'd be a hard sell to most coat and sling types, they think they bent over backwards just giving F and F/TR to the umwashed.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

as a 'slinger' thinking about shooting f-class I really like this idea!

I think you've struck the right balance. Just don't go all IDPA with the realism bit. I don't want to see people with 5 rnd magazines running off the line to behind the port-o-john to do mag changes behind cover twice during a 15 shot string.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

I like the direction you are approaching from. It is directed toward creating a middle ground between the coat 'n sling crowd and a tactical match.

The biggest fear/complaint I hear about tactical matches from the older folks is that they are scared that the emphasis on physical fitness will be too much for them. They want to shoot movers, popups, dot drills and barricade, but they neither want to hump gear nor run one single step all day.

This does get it started, and levels the playing field for kit.

As a response, I've been considering opening up a "bench potato" or "Veteran" if that's too pejorative, where they only do the shooting, and none of the physical effort stuff.

Either way, I think it's a good idea to have something in between the stodgy and the HSLD.

Great job Vu. It is well thought out, and there's a lot of meat in there.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

155s are allowed. Shoot them in open. Sorry, but a 155 or 185 zipped hard is a heavy 260rem =)


With everything, things will evolve and change. If change is needed in any of the areas you have mentioned, those changes will happen naturally.

</div></div>
Vu,
I hope guys aren't going to wait for the new class to give F-Class a try. The NRA often makes the federal government seem speedy... I have shot my 6XC 'everything rifle' in F-Open for the last couple of years, and even managed to win an F-Open aggregate in a local match. This may have been an example of a blind squirrel finding an acorn, but an optimist might conclude F-Class scores are more about reading the wind than a hardware race. The beauty of F-Class is that each shot is individually scored, so you can really learn a lot from a single match. It is also a really good way to nail down your zeroes. F-Class matches (regardless of class) are one of the best training events there is for learning to shoot long range.

Cheers,

DC
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Suppressors</span>? </div></div>

In <span style="font-style: italic">Kalifornia</span>? Surely you jest?
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DC Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

155s are allowed. Shoot them in open. Sorry, but a 155 or 185 zipped hard is a heavy 260rem =)


With everything, things will evolve and change. If change is needed in any of the areas you have mentioned, those changes will happen naturally.

</div></div>
Vu,
I hope guys aren't going to wait for the new class to give F-Class a try. The NRA often makes the federal government seem speedy... I have shot my 6XC 'everything rifle' in F-Open for the last couple of years, and even managed to win an F-Open aggregate in a local match. This may have been an example of a blind squirrel finding an acorn, but an optimist might conclude F-Class scores are more about reading the wind than a hardware race. The beauty of F-Class is that each shot is individually scored, so you can really learn a lot from a single match. It is also a really good way to nail down your zeroes. F-Class matches (regardless of class) are one of the best training events there is for learning to shoot long range.

Cheers,

DC
</div></div>

Good shooting! That's a very good performance.

The problem here is that tactical matches aren't for F-Class hardcores, and hardcore F-class isn't approachable with a tactical rig.

The NRA targets are all MOA based. So if you show up with a MIL/MIL rig, you have a more difficult time chasing the x ring with precise adjustments. I believe Vu is correct that rigs set up for this are far different than something built to survive starker conditions. He is correct to point out barrel length, single feed actions, etc.

Suppressors should always be permitted. I feel for all of you caught behind the people's line.

F-Class is lower key, but that tests a narrower set of skills than a match that has a high value CBS, movers, popups, UKD/RE, etc. And especially one that you don't get sighters for, know the CoF, distances, or expectations for ahead of time and cannot script it.

I used it as a chance to focus on fundamentals and that was good. But at the end of the day you're firing the same shot sixty six times in a row.

We really do need something in between. The NRA is exploring this too.

--Fargo007
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RobG</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jon Lester</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold">Suppressors</span>? </div></div>

In <span style="font-style: italic">Kalifornia</span>? Surely you jest? </div></div>

We have had some CA LE at our events with suppressors.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

David, you also run a 5000.00 Tubb space gun. I am not trying to take away from your skill level, however we are trying to create a level playing field for those without the 5K tubb rifles.

Take a PSS or a M700 5R with 175 SMKs and run against the FTR guys. See what I am getting at?

I am not waiting for the NRA to do anything, we are going forward with this concept regaurdless of NRA backing. IF we have to create our own thing, so let it be. We have a great group of HP shooters that are supporting us at Sac valley.

It's all gotta start some where with some one. Trust me, I am not holding my breath to be welcomed by the NRA's HP community.

As for suppressors, yah we have cans in CA. Coffee cans, soda cans, garbage cans. Take your pick
wink.gif


On the local level, shoot the cans where they are legal. On a national level, we have to make it so everyone is on the same playing field. Not all states are free. Some of us are behind enemy lines.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DC Smith</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

155s are allowed. Shoot them in open. Sorry, but a 155 or 185 zipped hard is a heavy 260rem =)


With everything, things will evolve and change. If change is needed in any of the areas you have mentioned, those changes will happen naturally.

</div></div>
Vu,
I hope guys aren't going to wait for the new class to give F-Class a try. The NRA often makes the federal government seem speedy... I have shot my 6XC 'everything rifle' in F-Open for the last couple of years, and even managed to win an F-Open aggregate in a local match. This may have been an example of a blind squirrel finding an acorn, but an optimist might conclude F-Class scores are more about reading the wind than a hardware race. The beauty of F-Class is that each shot is individually scored, so you can really learn a lot from a single match. It is also a really good way to nail down your zeroes. F-Class matches (regardless of class) are one of the best training events there is for learning to shoot long range.

Cheers,

DC
</div></div>
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vu</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David, you also run a 5000.00 Tubb space gun. I am not trying to take away from your skill level, however we are trying to create a level playing field for those without the 5K tubb rifles.

Take a PSS or a M700 5R with 175 SMKs and run against the FTR guys. See what I am getting at?
</div></div>
Thank God the T2K's didn't cost $5K back when I bought it! And while the Tubb gun has some very cool features, it isn't more competitive at F-Class than the other rifles near the top of the page at your local shoots. You are absolutely correct that even a mag length 6XC bucks the wind better than a long-loaded 200 grain .308, let alone a mag length 175 SMK. But as soon as a shooter decides he has to win or ‘be competitive’ he starts down the path of specialty rifles, 42X scopes, 50 pound benchrests or lunar landing bipods, and calibers/loads which eat brass and barrels at a very expensive rate. Seems to me there is something which is almost genetically programmed in us which makes us try to tweak our gear to give us as much advantage as the rules allow. So don’t be surprised by some of the rigs which will start showing up in the ‘Field Precision’ class as soon you get it established. Witness the arms races which have been going on amongst the IPSC/USPSA shooters for years. My point is: “Run what you got.” Yeah, the F-Class X ring is a half MOA which seems pretty small at 1,000 yards, and the guys shooting the 7mm WSM boomers or design-built Savage F-TR rigs will hit it more often than you will. For me the challenge is: How well can I shoot my rifle? So unscrew the brake, reset your zero down 7 MOA and over 2.5 MOA and go work on your fundamentals. When you misread a 2 mph wind shift at the TBRC, you learn about it an hour later, assuming the misses are even on the edge of the silhouette you sadists use. At an F-Class match the same mis-read means the target comes up ten seconds later with the spotter in the 7 or 8 ring, you can say sh*t!, take another look at the conditions and try to do better. If you are shooting the same rifle, bipod, scope & load as you shoot in tactical matches, this should translate into more hits at matches like the TBRC.

One final thought: An F-Class match you can shoot an hour or two from the house is way better training than a really cool match a long ways away that you don’t have the time or money to travel to.

Cheers,

DC
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Honestly, i haven't read this, and I know Vu sent it too me, but I haven't had the time... but DC makes some excellent points.

I think F Class can be excellent inexpensive training and experience especially if it is local. You can avoid the gear race and focus on you, and your shooting, and not the field in terms of score. Looking inward instead of out.

I understand wanting to be competitive doing it in the context of your equipment, but from a training and experience level, F Class can be very good for anyone with a scoped rifle.

If you go there looking to compete, you better have a race gun.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Agreed, trigger time with good feedback on every round sent down range is great training. A lot of our guys shoot F-Class for trigger time and to refine their loads.

But I think it would be nice to have a playing field for the hardware we run in the F-Class HP world as well.

For example, today we had 56 show up for a monthly match. That is our max capacity, + 6.


David, some good points and they are noted bud. I am keeping a running log of all the info collected here and other sites.

Vu
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

I think this is a great idea VU and hope it goes really far..and FYI the Army puts on similar F class type matches with the use of issue sniper rifles or personal tactical rifles. folding bipod or ruck support and pass out M118LR for the competitors.
Good Luck.
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Honestly, i haven't read this, and I know Vu sent it too me, but I haven't had the time... but DC makes some excellent points.

I think F Class can be excellent inexpensive training and experience especially if it is local. You can avoid the gear race and focus on you, and your shooting, and not the field in terms of score. Looking inward instead of out.

I understand wanting to be competitive doing it in the context of your equipment, but from a training and experience level, F Class can be very good for anyone with a scoped rifle.

If you go there looking to compete, you better have a race gun. </div></div>
Frank,

You and Vu have made excellent points as well. I wish there were dedicated <span style="font-weight: bold">F-T/R</span> matches close to me but there aren't. The closest I can get to an FT/R match is to shoot at a loosely run (no offense to the Match Director) 548-yard Mid Range that is really an <span style="font-weight: bold">F-OPEN</span> match. Long barreled, hand-loaded 6.5x47s', .260s', 7mms', 6mms', as well as magnums are the norm. Obviously, these calibers obviously have advantages over the .223 and .308. I shoot FGMM 175s' out of my 22" barrel X-Ray 51 (.308). There are a few .223s' and .308s' in there with me, but not many.

Do I have to go shoot there? Of course not - but I find it fun to compete with myself. However, and not to take anything away from other shooters - but I do feel as if I'm competing against <span style="font-style: italic">calibers</span> as well. As I understand it the F-T/R Class was developed to encourage and allow more shooters to get out and compete without feeling like that will be out-classed in terms of <span style="font-style: italic">equipment</span> (yeah, I know I'm shooting an X-Ray 51, but its' still a .308).

There's no mention of the calibers shot in the F-Class matches I shoot in every other month (I've shot two now with another scheduled for tomorrow), but in August's gusty, switching winds the 1st and 2nd Place shooters shot (hand-loaded) 6.5x47s', and I finished a lucky
wink.gif
3rd with my .308 shooting FGMM 175s'. Below are the results of that Mid Range [550 Yard] F-Class match:

F-Class: (2x25)
Steve R. 240-08 248-10 488-18 - 6.5x47L
Mark E. 247-10 238-07 485-17 - 6.5-47L
Keith 243-07 241-08 484-15 - .308
Mark I. 241-08 239-08 480-16 - 6mm
Randall R. 240-04 239-07 479-11
Charles R. 234-05 241-06 475-11
Cameron W. 234-04 238-05 472-09
Joe C. 234-01 232-08 466-09
Conner 226-04 239-10 465-14
Rich 232-06 231-08 463-08 - .308
Scott G. 234-01 229-03 463-04 - .308
Yarish 225-02 214-01 439-03

Wish me luck in tomorrow's match - I'm going to need it with another 6.5x47 to shoot against. My driving/shooting buddy is schuduled to work and won't be there to keep me awake on the road.

<span style="font-style: italic">Vu</span> - great work! I really like the FPR-L rules you set-up, even though I don't shoot tactical matches.


Keith
 
Re: Field Precision Rifle Class in F-Class Matches?

Well Gentlemen,

We got the green light from our HP Director on Saturday. He will start including FPR-L FPR-O in his classes during F-Class and HP events.

He even said yes to muzzle brakes, he would just squad them at the end of our 25 lane range.


I also have some other good news not ready to be released yet. Once we make the announcement, I'll need as much support as possible to make it fly.

Thank you,

Vu