Advanced Marksmanship Fighting Body position and NPOA

[rickp]

This past weekend a couple of buddies and I got together and did some shooting all the way out from 100y to 1000y.

As we shot I started to notice I was fighting my body position a bit. I felt as if i couldn’t get into my NPOA so naturally. Part of the reason for this is that I've been working on breaking a self induced habit of being a bit TOO relaxed behind the gun and not holding it tight or strong enough through recoil and follow through, this is causing the gun to jump affecting accuracy.

Now what i'm having issues with is figuring out what arm position I'm most comfortable in while maximizing control over the gun.
Let me see if I can break it down for you guys so it's as clear as possible. There are three arm positions I'm trying out.

The first is having the support elbow pointing more forward, hugging the rifle if you will. Sometimes I feel as if the support arm lets me push the rifle into my shoulder almost straight back.
The second position is keeping the arms and shoulders more parallel to the target and as flat to the ground as possible. I feel as this position is a bit tough to pull the rifle into my body. I get a lot of lateral movement when I apply that force or pressure and that’s when the fidgeting starts.
The third is similar to the second arm position but instead of flattening as much as possible I'm tucking both strong and weak elbows closer to the body. This seems to let me get the tight hold and control on the rifle with minimal lateral movement or reticle drift.

Ultimately what I’m trying to do is get into a good comfortable NPA and hold on to the gun a bit tighter allowing for better recoil control.

I would like to hear from you guys and especially Frank, Jacob and Lindy about this position fighting I’m going through. I just hope that I'm expressing myself clearly enough to be understood.

I also attached today’s 100y target result. I really took my time with them and played with my body position before sending each shot. The shots I pulled I knew were bad shots, I could call them before they hit. I pushed the bad shot. I also didn’t hold on to the rifle like I should have. I know the results aren’t bad, but it took too much moving around and fidgeting to get them IMO.
What I did get out of today though, was that the shots felt much better when I held on to the rifle nice and tight, I could feel it was a good shot, imagine that!!!! LOL

Anyway, thanks for any feedback.
R.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

You need to work to get into a position which has a line across your shoulders perpendicular to the line of the bore. Only when that is true can your spine be parallel to the line of the bore, which is what will give you the proper NPA.

And, of course, when you're in that position, the rifle must be aimed at the target.

The proper tension of the rifle into the shoulder pocket is achieved by moving the <span style="font-style: italic">hips</span> forward, not by pulling the rifle back.

I applaud your work on achieving the proper position. Keep it up.

 

[rickp]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

Hey Lindy,
Thank you for the reply. I'm going out again tomorrow I'll work on my shoulder position to make sure it's perpendicular to the bore. After you mentioned it I remembered Jacob and Frank talking about it.

I've also always made sure I load the bipod by raising the stock and digging the bipod into the ground if you will. But then the bipod starts to slide a bit and I start to feel as is the rifle isn't tight enough against my body, hence me pulling the rifle into my shoulder a bit with my support and shooting hand. I do recognize this to be a no no. I'm just trying different things.

Let me ask you, is your support arm and hand applying ANY rearward pressure on the stock to keep that tight contact between gun and shoulder?
That's the root of what I'm trying to accomplish, to hold the gun tighter without disturbing NPOA. In my case it's made a world of difference in my accuracy when I find that balanced sweet spot.

Maybe if you don't mind, in your own words, describe how you attain that gun control that i'm seeking. Where are you gripping tightly, where you're not, where you're pulling or pushing, applying pressure, not applying pressure etc etc...
Sometimes hearing or reading the same thing from different people and how they describe things causes the light bulb to come on. Those are the "OHHH Yeahhh I get it now" moments.
If I'm being a pain in the ass let me know. I have very thick skin!!!

I'll work on the shoulders tomorrow and go from there.

I'll keep you posted on how things go.
Again thanks

R.

 

[rickp]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

Went out again today and followed Lindy's advice about having my shoulders perpendicular to the bore. While my position felt a bit more natural and I faught it less I still pulled the rifle into my shoulder a bit, even after loading the bipod.(mainly beacuse it kept sliding)

I pulled a few shots here and there and on every one of them I knew it was a bad shot before I saw the hit. Again, I pushed the bad shot or just rushed through it.

The bottom center target was my zero confirmation shot. After the first 2 shots I adjusted 2 clicks down and kept going from there on. I ran through the rest of the small dots as you can see on the target.
I would like to know why are most of the bad shots at the 10-11 o'clock position though?? What am I doing there? Remember I'm left handed

I do want to comment on the last row of larger dots at the bottom. Those shitty hits are the perfect example of aim big miss big and my complete shift in mindset.
Those hits are nothing more than rushing through the shot just because they were bigger dots and I felt that I didn't need to focus as much. The dots speaks for themselves and goes to show that no matter what the size of the target, you need to keep your head in the game at all times.

Anyway, hope this info is helpful to others trying to perfect their shooting.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

Rick,

Shooting is a much more mental game than people give it credit for being. Your mind can and in most cases will be your biggest enemy, especially if you are over-thinking the problem.

Left hand shooters tend to exaggerate the position more, generally, so when you think you are straight you might require an extra inch or two more. I would recommend filming what you are doing so you can see exactly what your position looks like.

As well, you know trigger is going to be a huge factor, it's critical. Unfortunately many don't realize what errors they are putting into the shot. I don't think your class benefited from our lesson on "loosing time" it's a very good example of how to fix your own shots. Its strictly a live fire thing that requires the shooter to address certain steps in a different order. Simply rearranging the process so you don't push a bad shot.

The program at RO is constantly evolving and we have introduced some new things, while still focusing on the fundamentals, so hopefully we'll see you guys again.

Review the lessons, and start at the beginning, don't skip a step, that at least will give you the basics and a solid foundations to work from.

We may have mentioned in class -- but you do realize back in the day we used to kill guys like you who used their left hand as their primary. Lucky for you, the inquisitions passed you by.

 

[Lindy]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

That's why people who are naturally left-handed should learn to shoot on the other side. When the Inquisition comes back, they can just switch, and say, "Oh, I always shot on this side..."

 

[Graham]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky for you, the inquisitions passed you by.</div></div>Maybe not; maybe vestiges of the Inquisition remain with us today.

The Inquisitors were the first to insist that for every question there was a correct answer. Because the Inquistors already had the answer, doubt was irrelevant. Everything they did - except the executions - took place in secret. Their power made it possible for them to accuse and denounce at will. And because the truth was known, the only important thing was the rational demonstration of it by the victims. They were the first managers - the first true accountants.

...or, maybe I'm over-thinking it. Yeah, it's probably trigger.

 

[DaveV]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky for you, the inquisitions passed you by.</div></div>Maybe not; maybe vestiges of the Inquisition remain with us today.

The Inquisitors were the first to insist that for every question there was a correct answer. Because the Inquistors already had the answer, doubt was irrelevant. <span style="font-weight: bold">Everything they did - except the executions - took place in secret</span>. Their power made it possible for them to accuse and denounce at will. And because the truth was known, the only important thing was the rational demonstration of it by the victims. They were the first managers - the first true accountants.

...or, maybe I'm over-thinking it. Yeah, it's probably trigger.

</div></div>

Did they try to pass a massive health care bill by chance?

 

[steelcomp]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveV</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky for you, the inquisitions passed you by.</div></div>Maybe not; maybe vestiges of the Inquisition remain with us today.

The Inquisitors were the first to insist that for every question there was a correct answer. Because the Inquistors already had the answer, doubt was irrelevant. <span style="font-weight: bold">Everything they did - except the executions - took place in secret</span>. Their power made it possible for them to accuse and denounce at will. And because the truth was known, the only important thing was the rational demonstration of it by the victims. They were the first managers - the first true accountants.

...or, maybe I'm over-thinking it. Yeah, it's probably trigger.

</div></div>

Did they try to pass a massive health care bill by chance? </div></div>OMG...too funny...too scary at the same time...

 

[rickp]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That's why people who are naturally left-handed should learn to shoot on the other side. When the Inquisition comes back, they can just switch, and say, "Oh, I always shot on this side..."

</div></div>

LOL!! Lindy,
I refuse to be a conformist. I'd rather show the world that us south paws are just as capable, and if i may say so myself, sometime better than the right handed guys.

Frank,
We try to keep you on your toes. We sometimes get the pleasure of watching an instructors face when a left handed shooter raises his hand and asks "what about if you shoot left handed..."?? LOLOL. It's enjoyable to watch.

All kidding aside, I do have plans to go out there again. I'm scheduled for a knee replacement Feb 23rd so it'll be little while, but trust me we will see each other again.

Are you planning on posting the "Loosing Time" lesson online?

R.

 

[rickp]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Lucky for you, the inquisitions passed you by.</div></div>Maybe not; maybe vestiges of the Inquisition remain with us today.

The Inquisitors were the first to insist that for every question there was a correct answer. Because the Inquistors already had the answer, doubt was irrelevant. Everything they did - except the executions - took place in secret. Their power made it possible for them to accuse and denounce at will. And because the truth was known, the only important thing was the rational demonstration of it by the victims. They were the first managers - the first true accountants.

...or, maybe I'm over-thinking it. Yeah, it's probably trigger.

</div></div>

Interesting, both comments!!!

 

[jesseanderson2]

Re: Fighting Body position and NPOA

I was just going to start a thread asking about NPOA. Thanks for the great info. I will have to work this when I get home.