First Active Duty female soldier to pass Army Sniper Course

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RRW

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Mar 2, 2013
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#1
www.foxnews.com

Female soldier graduates Army's sniper school in historic first

A female soldier with the 173rd Airborne Brigade made history by becoming the first active duty woman to complete the Army's elite sniper school and qualify as a sniper.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Not to be skeptical but if they didn't lower the standards and she met the same requirements as everyone else, good for her.
 
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#6
1702652924072.png
 
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#9
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#10
if you are referring to a particular specialty MOS,then yes your knowledge is indeed profound. i meant by the function itself. the russians used women in several combat roles in WW2 as pilots,snipers,tank crews. they were usually in support roles but not all. the way things are looking with recruitment,this kinda stuff is going to be tried. will it work? prob not but it looks like the asians might try it. muslims prob not. israel used women in combat in their 1st war. don't think it worked. never used in active combat subsequently. there are women that i would rather face SHTF with than a lot of men i run into. you can find historical examples of homos,blacks,women,latins all fighting ferociously. it's culture and life,not superficial factors,that seem to matter,at least in the past.
 
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#13
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
She can't carry the identifier, nor can she occupy a slot.

She can call herself whatever she wants, but she will never be a sniper.
Click to expand...

Don't know about this specific person, but I did have a female friend- of rather large stature but true XX, who was able to do the full required body carry for firefighter academy (I believe 160#) without reduced standard. I have zero doubt she could have learned how to run a bolt gun as well if she applied herself. Granted, she is the exception, and I don't believe in lowering standards for DEI quotas. The question would be why would such truly exceptional female want to offer their bodies as fodder for this admin.

Still stupid to mix sexes in combat; just another way to destroy the military. There is a role, particular when jihadists use their women to hide stuff/limit searches etc. because they knew our ROE. Want females in combat, put them together in their own platoons.
 
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#15
Holliday said:
Never fear, the simp brigade will tell her how awesome she is.....
Click to expand...
People who have never been in a combat arms mos or the military at all can't wait to tell us how they don't see a problem with it.

If you never did this job, you have no idea what it is. It isn't like television. Someone above said something about a chick learning to "run a bolt" as if that's all there is to it. Put a 140lb ruck on her back and let's do a 10k insertion over rough terrain in the dark. They haven't made a woman who can do it. What's she going to do in the hide while we are rolling over top of each other to get 18" of space to shit in an mre bag?

But tell me more about the one bull dyke you met who could lift 160lbs. 😒😒
 
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#18
I know why she does not want to go to Ranger school. Because they have the motto "Embrace the Suck." And she is probably not comfortable with that combination of words.
 
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#19
have to wonder whether the average VC sapper could have climbed a 30' ladder with a 160# load. or,the average 150lb marine in 1942? there are 2 sexes for a reason but roles have overlapped for millenia.
 
#20
mosin46 said:
have to wonder whether the average VC sapper could have climbed a 30' ladder with a 160# load. or,the average 150lb marine in 1942? there are 2 sexes for a reason but roles have overlapped for millenia.
Click to expand...
You keep saying crazy shit.

What is your military experience?
 
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#21
mosin46 said:
have to wonder whether the average VC sapper could have climbed a 30' ladder with a 160# load. or,the average 150lb marine in 1942? there are 2 sexes for a reason but roles have overlapped for millenia.
Click to expand...
The problem is not “roles overlapping”.

The problem is actually a multifaceted one where women going into mens roles are pulled from an exceeding small pool of women that want that job. This exceedingly small pool increases the likelihood of unqualified candidates being picked.

Then add the fact that organizations/companies are under tremendous pressure to hire more women for these jobs.

So they are fast-tracked, pass lower standards and told that sunshine and butterflies come out their ass.

Then when they screw up it is often swept under the rug or overlooked until something bad enough happens they can’t.

I won’t even get into the psychological differences between men and women. We’re not the same, full stop.

Then you have men who have to sacrifice their safety and carry more workload to accommodate them.

Finally, this is all compounded by a culture that has indoctrinated women into believing that they are oppressed by the majority of the people they’re working with, men.

Let me be clear. If a female is competent and she does her well job well and earns her spot fairly. I give her all the credit. The problem is that’s not what’s happening in a majority of cases.

This headline shouldn’t say anything about “female”. When we get to the point where first female this and first female that is gone, then maybe people can start to accept females in male dominated positions better.


 
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#22
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
You keep saying crazy shit.

What is your military experience?
Click to expand...
usmc (R) no combat experience. what is yours? and what is crazy about pointing out obvious exceptions to your lack of thinking about the situation our culture is in? in the current real word these kind of things are going to be tried and likely not work. if could read,i already said that. the best that could be hoped for is to rigidly make the job requirements uniform for any job brain surgeon,sniper,block mason,programmer. make the individual responsible for their results. that's not likely and not what is going on today.
 
#23
Holliday said:
The problem is not “roles overlapping”.

The problem is actually a multifaceted one where women going into mens roles are pulled from an exceeding small pool of women that want that job. This exceedingly small pool increases the likelihood of unqualified candidates being picked.

Then add the fact that organizations/companies are under tremendous pressure to hire more women for these jobs.

So they are fast-tracked, pass lower standards and told that sunshine and butterflies come out their ass.

Then when they screw up it is often swept under the rug or overlooked until something bad enough happens they can’t.

I won’t even get into the psychological differences between men and women. We’re not the same, full stop.

Then you have men who have to sacrifice their safety and carry more workload to accommodate them.

Finally, this is all compounded by a culture that has indoctrinated women into believing that they are oppressed by the majority of the people they’re working with, men.

Let me be clear. If a female is competent and she does her well job well and earns her spot fairly. I give her all the credit. The problem is that’s not what’s happening in a majority of cases.

This headline shouldn’t say anything about “female”. When we get to the point where first female this and first female that is gone, then maybe people can start to accept females in male dominated positions better.


Click to expand...

agree with those things. applies to sex,race,national origin whatever. the problem is not letting women be snipers. the problem is not having a culture that rewards ability and hard work. one that gives every kid a trophy for being on a losing team or gives degrees for being present. females sniping might be a symptom. it's not the cause and whining about it is not the solution. BTW,limited experience with cops but about of 70% of FM cops were assholes. guess what? so were 70% of males. it's a cop thing not gender thing.
 
#28
Average load out is more than she weighs. If she went through without a single easement she should be rewarded with a guard/overwatch on a post somewhere.
For those that think she should be out there what happens when she comes out of a plane in a low altitude insert with a 125# load out besides breaking a leg?
 
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#30
ubettcha said:
Average load out is more than she weighs. If she went through without a single easement she should be rewarded with a guard/overwatch on a post somewhere.
For those that think she should be out there what happens when she comes out of a plane in a low altitude insert with a 125# load out besides breaking a leg?
Click to expand...
A man will carry her to safety…..
 
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#31
In Vietnam, we were all kind pissed anytime a homosexual might be on the hill or in the unit. Can’t even start to go into the issues that women caused when I left active military and went into a guard unit.

(You can call the gay or you can call them diverse or you can call them anything you damn well like, but WE did not Want them!).
IMG_1038.jpeg
IMG_1037.jpeg
 
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#32
This is a by product of an "all volunteer military" - not just woke. US Army cannot meet recruiting goals. US Army REALLY cannot meet its recruiting goals without females - 50+% of population. Add in several years of US Military bashing "toxic white males" from "flyover country" and see what you get. US Army leadership praying they can get by next decade or so until "Skynet" drones/robots/whatever are available in mass.
 
#36
Lightning8 said:
This is a by product of an "all volunteer military" - not just woke. US Army cannot meet recruiting goals. US Army REALLY cannot meet its recruiting goals without females - 50+% of population. Add in several years of US Military bashing "toxic white males" from "flyover country" and see what you get. US Army leadership praying they can get by next decade or so until "Skynet" drones/robots/whatever are available in mass.
Click to expand...
This question is not women in male dominated industries but what role do they play.

A woman flying a drone or handling admin/logistical duties is a far cry from being on the battle field carrying gear and needing to perhaps rescue/aid a much larger male counterpart.

The same with LEO. Does it make sense to put a female on the street alone??? And went back up arrives and there’s a firefight, can she drag her coworker who’s 6’5” and 270 pounds out of the fire zone

Can a female firefighter do these things??

The problem is the plural of anecdote is not data.

We all know that one lady that we probably wouldn’t want to tangle with that could probably kick us at our ass and drag us down the road but she’s not the norm. She’s an anomaly. And she is BIG.

Notice anything strange in the below photo?


IMG_4063.jpeg
 
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#37
I am reminded of the female kickers that were DEI placed on college teams and how their kicks were inadequate for the game.

Handling a firearm is skill, not just strength. I was talking with a range manager and I had supposed that a woman might have a difficult time holding a CZ 1911 in .45 ACP because it is a heavy gun. He said that has nothing to do with it. Holding the gun is a skill and so is being accurate with it.

But I also think there is a limit. And from what I remember, the female snipers of the past were primarily engaged in stopping enemy agents. To quote Col. Trautman, "when in doubt, kill. Win by attrition." Reading snippets of their exploits, the heaviest thing the women snipers in the early 20th century was the rifle and ammo. It was not their job to where 50 pounds of gear, ammo, and rifle, and then also carry your buddy who is 6'4" and 240 lbs.

Combat training, and obviously special forces training and selection is so arduous. It is not a matter of the instructors being sadists. Those are the physical and mental demands of the job.
 
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#39
Hecouldgoalltheway said:
People who have never been in a combat arms mos or the military at all can't wait to tell us how they don't see a problem with it.

If you never did this job, you have no idea what it is. It isn't like television. Someone above said something about a chick learning to "run a bolt" as if that's all there is to it. Put a 140lb ruck on her back and let's do a 10k insertion over rough terrain in the dark. They haven't made a woman who can do it. What's she going to do in the hide while we are rolling over top of each other to get 18" of space to shit in an mre bag?

But tell me more about the one bull dyke you met who could lift 160lbs. 😒😒
Click to expand...
Woman in the army are cunts! Never met one who thought her shit didn't stink.
 
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#41
101st said:
Woman in the army are cunts! Never met one who thought her shit didn't stink.
Click to expand...
Knew one, friend of a friend. She would not for 1 second quit with that GI Jane, I am Woman, I'm as strong as any man, hucklebuck. I didn't serve, so I guess I can't cast too much dispersion, but it was all I could do to watch a movie with her, can't imagine how her Army buddies put up with that.
 
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#42
101st said:
Never met one who thought her shit didn't stink.
Click to expand...
I had a new female Wyoming Warden for a neighbor and she was hateful….. 22, a gun and a badge and her ego went through the roof. When I first met her a year and a half before she became a warden, she had only shot a 22 rifle once. A year and a half later she was wearing a badge and a Glock.
 
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#43
101st said:
Woman in the army are cunts! Never met one who thought her shit didn't stink.
Click to expand...
Yeah, well, I am all man. My shit does stink. I was passing gas one day that had an ag shop smelling like my bowels. Even my friend, John, who has processed many an animal and even dealt with gut shot was suffering.

It's just too bad that I could not serve in the military. My flatulence could be useful as a means of enhanced interrogation as strong as waterboarding.
 
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#44
Holliday said:
This question is not women in male dominated industries but what role do they play.

A woman flying a drone or handling admin/logistical duties is a far cry from being on the battle field carrying gear and needing to perhaps rescue/aid a much larger male counterpart.

The same with LEO. Does it make sense to put a female on the street alone??? And went back up arrives and there’s a firefight, can she drag her coworker who’s 6’5” and 270 pounds out of the fire zone

Can a female firefighter do these things??

The problem is the plural of anecdote is not data.

We all know that one lady that we probably wouldn’t want to tangle with that could probably kick us at our ass and drag us down the road but she’s not the norm. She’s an anomaly. And she is BIG.

Notice anything strange in the below photo?


View attachment 8298063
Click to expand...
"Take Your Daughter To Work" day?
 
#48
RRW said:
Not to be skeptical but if they didn't lower the standards and she met the same requirements as everyone else, good for her.
Click to expand...
My experience pushing studs through a number of different service and component sniper courses is like just about anyone else's.

You have instructors who are true teachers and you have "Standard Protectors" who make it a supreme challenge for anyone to pass. There has to be a happy medium somewhere -- training should be challenging but not impossible to pass.

Not everyone is meant to be a sniper -- especially if you've never lived in the woods growing up, and you can't hit a specified number of targets with a precision rifle and optic (for Chrissakes).

The Leg Army has a huge problem when it comes to filling vacant sniper slots. You have to filter through all the willing volunteers to find those qualified to do the job. You have to prep and train them and get them to the course. Once there they have to meet the objective standards. For good or for bad, with a lack of qualified officers and senior NCOs, who knows the difference?

There are 60 Army infantry battalions (active, Guard, and Reserve). While there might be troops in each slot, many / most are short school-qualified Additional Skill Identifier B4 Soldiers. 32 slots per class, 10 classes per year, if everyone passed that's 320 per year for all infantry and cavalry scout sniper positions. Legacy pass rate is around 50% or less. It seems like it will be impossible to fill slots until divisions and units hold their own schools again -- like we do for static-line jumpmaster, and testing for EIB and EMB.

=================

Army Sniper School Fail​

John Buol, Army Reserve Marksman, January 2022

The United States Army Sniper Course just reported that they have a high failure rate due to Soldiers not being able to pass the Army’s minimum threshold grouping of 6 MOA (4cm at 25m) to standard. This is a disheartening but honest reflection of current Soldier ability with small arms. Nobody can address a problem they refuse to acknowledge. Kudos to the United States Army Sniper Course for doing the right thing and being public about it.

Update: Army public affairs has since had the post about this very real problem removed. I guess that’s easier than addressing the issue…

I saved the picture and text as originally posted before it was deleted.


From day one, Sniper School isn’t easy.

Please ensure that Soldiers attending are prepared to perform the first event as it delivers the highest attrition rate of all graded events. This event consist of firing an M4 Carbine with iron sights at 25 meters. We shoot the Army’s standard M4 zero targets and we require that the impacts are within 4 centimeters.

Units spend a lot of money and resources to send Soldiers to this course. We want to graduate 100% of our students as we can but must maintain standards.

Before you stands the bags of 15 students that failed group-in. The one event at the USASC that delivers the largest amount of failures is the 25-meter group-in. This event consists of firing an M4 Carbine with iron sights at 25 meters. We shoot the Army’s standard M4 zero targets and we require that the impacts are within 4 centimeters (6 MOA, which is the minimum Army standard all Soldiers are supposed to be able to pass, including new recruits during Initial Entry Training). Despite this, we commonly see 25-30% of arriving soldiers incapable of meeting this standard, even after being declared as a suitable candidate for Sniper training by their leadership and (allegedly) having qualified “expert” in the past six months.


Do not take this as the USASC poking fun, but rather as a teaching point. Units spend a lot of money and resources to send soldiers to this course. We want to graduate 100% of our students as we believe and know that snipers are force multipliers. Please take the time to ensure you or your soldiers can meet a course pre-requisite.

The 39 students that did successfully complete group-in have our fullest attention. We can also include doctrinal updates, curriculum updates and re-writes, force modernization, equipment procurement for tomorrow’s sniper, equipment testing, international sniper competition, and general soldier tasks. The soldiers used their Assault packs instead of a sandbag which is why there are notable statements highlighted in TC 3-22.9.

We presented a fact that the biggest discriminator at the USASC is the 25-meter group-in. For those that don’t know, soldiers will shoot, retrain if needed, then shoot again. We do not run a selection course as we firmly believe that units have already selected the soldiers attending the course. We provide a service for the Army as snipers can help shape the battlefield. The army is vastly understrength with qualified snipers and we are far from “badge protecting.”

At one point we identified that the force was struggling so bad with the M4, that we provided an M4 PMI, took students through the EST2000, then performed attempt 1, retrain, attempt 2. The number of drops was still 25-30%, meaning no change.

The USASC does not need to disclose any of this information but for the betterment of the Soldier attending, we will share data points where difficulties commonly occur."
 
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#50
Holliday said:
This one is classic: A pregnant female LEO alone, trying to take down a male suspect that she cannot handle.

FINALLY an UNARMED MALE good Samaritan has to intervene.

Click to expand...

I don't feel sorry for the female cop but what pisses me off is the danger that she puts her unborn baby in.

It's been a known fact in the military for a very long time that when a woman is pregnant, she becomes non-deployable. Even for jobs that don't require deployment, women are more absent from duty than men.

Then it's the men that have to accomplish the work the women should have done in the first place.
 
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