First AR help

[jfv350z]

So the title says it all. Im buying my first ar (im a ak guy but want a ar) and have it narrowed it down to a few offerings; LMT CQB MRP ($1800, DI not piston), Ruger sr556 ($1750), LWRC M6A2 SPR ($2200), and a POF 415 ($1850). this rifle is going to be a fighting rifle and it SHOULD be my one and only AR. So i would like it to be the best of the best onces its all said and done.

- Im open to suggestions, but it has to be bought from my LGS. I know they carry a lot of popular brands of AR.
- I would really like it to have a heavy barrel since its most likely just going to be a range gun (possibly with some carbine classes).
- I would really like it to come from the factory with some sort of self lubing coating on the barrel and BCG.

As far as cost goes, its not really a issue in terms of up front cost but i would like it to have some sort of value, ie the M6A2 SPR has a $200 price gab vs the m6a2 but has more then $200 worth of upgrades. so i dont want to spend $1400 on a AR then spend another $1000 accessorizing it. also im really concerned about CS, QC, and the company's warranty policy, and would prefer a lifetime warranty.

conclusions from my research (not including DI vs Piston debate):
LWRC: costs a lot and the gas system uses a spring which can wear out; the lwrc seems to be the best piston gun available, with execptional CS and warranty policy. shiips with BUIS, sling QD, gunfighter charging handle, self lubing coating, and a stock i would actually use.

LMT: very good rifle, battle tested, i have read some stories about LMT not taking care of civilian customers, and no formal written warranty. ships with sling, mounts, irons, rail panels and a good stock.

Ruger: good rifle, cheap for a piston gun, but is heavy, can be picky with ammo, cant remove the piston system, roll pinned quad rail, commercial spec BCG (something about the firing pin not being shielded), and HAD carrier tilt problems, seeming solved now. ships with BUIS, rugar tactical bag, 3 pmags, chromed barrel/bolt, but has a low quality stock and a 1:9 twist. no real written warranty, but has good ruger CS.

POF: very good rifle, but had some CS and QC problems a few years ago. has simple piston system, comes with a bunch of nice little things (roller pins and such), self lubing coating, good stock from the factory, no BUIS, 3 year warranty.

Again i really want this to be my one and only AR, and it will be set up as a fighting rifle, and as basically a backup SHTF rifle (primary is a AKM), and UPFRONT COST is not a huge issue, but again I dont want to buy a $1200 ar and then spend another $1000 (excluding optics) accessorizing it that way that i want it set up.

Thanks and sorry for the long read

 

[Brian]

Im open to suggestions...

Walmarts are local to everyone and you can get a Colt from them for around $1200+/-

 

[r2shooter]

I like my RRA, Colts are nice also, DPMS & M&P so many decent AR's to list IMO.
If you want a piston AR look at a Sig 516. Mine has performed flawlessly & eats any ammo I've feeded it.

 

[mbpike]

I'd look into the offerings of Noveske as well

 

[Darkside-Six]

How about a Daniel Defense? fantastic guns right there. have you considered just building one from scratch? usually a lot better for the money and you know it's how you want it.

 

[mbpike]

Building is a great idea. Helps you learn the insides and out of a rifle.

 

[elfster1234]

LOL, ill just post there here also being that you're pretty much asking the same question.

here is the end of your searching for under $1100... rock river ATH with the new upgraded handguard..... battle rifle or not, this thing is ultra light weight (with the new improved handguard as shown in my pic) kicks total ass for the money right out of the box and I would put it up against rifles damn near twice the price any day and I'm not one to BS people one bit. Also, if you want a 100% bench / prone precision AR, get a 20" varmint bull barrel.

rock river ATH:

600YARDS WITH THE ATH, 5SHOTS UNDER 3" (about .461moa with friggen 60grn vmax bullets):

300YARDS WITH THE ATH, 5SHOTS @ .933" (about .297moa with 60grn vmax):

At 100yards, 19 out of 20 5shot groups sub-moa, or 99 out of 100 rounds sub-moa, all shot in a row with different powder drop rates mind you:

At 100yards, 10shot group with the ATH:

If this give you any doubts about rock river performance vs price, then you are kidding yourself. I've owned 7 rock river arms AR's now and they have all performed 100% with no FTF or FTE. They are just awesome. Rock river ATH 18" barrel or Varmint in a 20" barrel. You can't go wrong with either one.

Not going to post all of my varmint pics... the varmint bull barrel RRA is right in line if not slightly better groups than the ATH, but the rifle is much more heavy (is used for 100% bench / prone varmint shooting is awesome). Matter of fact, the best single 5shot group ive ever produced was with a varmint rock river arms bull barrel:

I'm not saying to make your purchase here, but to only give you an idea... do your own homework!

Rock river ATH with the new handguard:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=371110963

new 20" varmint bull barrel with the new TRO (top rail octagonal handguard)!:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=371111610
the A2 buttstock might be basic as all hell, but it's great for a rear sand bag for the first timer;

 

[ZombieMonkey]

From experience dealing with LMT, the horror stories are just that, horror stories. The company has had great customer service with me and my dealings with them. The only thing to remember is that the government/contract sales are their priority over their commercial end of the house for the retail market.

As much as my SBR LMT is one of my favorite firearms, LMT and several of the other companies listed are far from the only game in town. If you are just looking for something reliable with no frills a base Colt 6920 or something else of that variety would serve your needs very well. I love upgrading my ARs, but it really is hard to beat a simple carbine with a good set of irons.

 

[Butter]

Might check out Barnes Precision Machine. They are a smaller maker in North Carolina that makes some great quality rifles. Their customer service is spot on

 

[Maelstrom]

I own several LWRC rifles (M6A2, M6A2 SBR, M6 SPR) as well as a RRA, and a Colt 6920. LWRC has great customer service and make a quality rifle. The SPR is light and the rails are user configured so you only use what you want where you want reducing weight. It comes with a small 2" rail with QD, and 2 3" rails that can be mounted as you need. The one piece bolt means not having to worry about the carrier screws not being staked properly and being a piston it can be run almost dry. The BCM Gunfighter charging handle is a great upgrade straight from the factory. I purchased the basic model that came with the plastic ARMs flip ups as I will be using a setof Troy sights I already have. I also will switch the basic M4 stock for a Magpul once I decide which one i want. It comes with a left side/right side QD endplate and the enhanced fire control group. The midlength gas system does give it the appearance of being a 20" barrel instead of the 16" it is. I am contemplating using an Impact light at the 12 o'clock position and moving the front sight back slightly. If I did the measurements correctly I can put it in the same place as a standard carbine gas length sight and still have enough rail space for the light in front.

 

[This I'll Defend]

I know I probably come off as a fan-boy, but I like many types but a rifle company that no one really knows or pays much attention to is Primary Weapons Systems. Look at their Mk1 series models. .223 wylde or 300BLK chamberings. I have the Mk216 and freaking love it.The piston system they use is the closest thing to an AK in terms of reliability out of an AR platform. It doesn't use any additional springs except for one on the bolt in the Mk1 models. In terms of ease of maintenance and operation, you can't get any better. Primary Weapons Systems - PWS

 

[long range newbie]

I still don't even own a ar never have owned one, don't have a big use but I'd like an ar-10

 

[ROOPS]

I would go with a 6.8spc if building an ar. I did and it Rocks. I also have a 5.56 for plinking though

 

[Crosshair]

My recommendation is save the $800-$1000 and get a Colt 6920 for a fighting rifle.
Or fighting rifle/tack driver, a RRA like Elfster has- for $920! There are not many factory spr's that shoot as well as the groups he has posted, even at more than twice the price. Save the money and put it into an awesome optic.. Like a Trijicon accupoint 1-4x24 or something along those lines. My 2 cents.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

If you've never considered the products from Stag Arms, I'd suggest you give them a look-see.

Mine (my only AR) is a Model 6 Super Varminter. With a 24" heavy stainless barrel, it is just about my most accurate rifle, and I believe it lives up to its 100yd 1/2MOA guarantee. Even TulAmmo SHTF 55gr shoots 'Minute of Hand' at 250yd for me. It is my Granddaughter's F T/R Comp rifle.

Definitely not a CQB rifle, its long range performance more than makes up for any other deficiencies. I mean, you still have an AK for CQB, right?

Greg

 

[Wolf22]

LMT - although I busted a bolt ejector in 6 rounds from new suppressed MRP CQB piston....... they took care of me in a 2wk turn around. The MRP platform is really nice when you can simply swap out just a few items in seconds and be running 6.8 or 556 or .......being a one and done, i'd strongly rec. looking into that. Heavy, yes. But the LM8 MRP platform is lighter.

KAC IWS Mod1 is worth a look.

PWS and their MK114's. Been very happy with them and great people to deal with. Plenty of info on the Hide from course testing/training and high round count reliability (Going PWS though you have a Unique system/parts limitation.........)

Keep pondering the LWRC SPR....

POF - will it run or will it be a problem child? proprietary again...

DI Guns: plenty of replacement parts and commonality....
Daniel Defense
Bravo Company
Noveske
KAC
Colt 6920 build up
Wilson Combat
Larue?

Piston: proprietary systems and parts......caution
PWS
LWRC
LMT

BEST IDEA - find folks in your area and get hands on time, launch some copper and get an idea of what works for you. That will save you the 'wish i woulda.....' syndrome. Figure out if you 'have' to have Ambi controls on the lower, what type of handguard and what length works best to you, stock choices etc....

naturally - you can always have 2 uppers of Diff. calibers if you want something other than an LMT MRP barrel swap setup.

BUILD your own DI ideas:

1. Lower = Noveske, Mega, Wilson Combat, POF, BCM, DD

2. Upper = Mega, Noveske, Vltor, Rainier?, Colt, BCM, WMD? having lower fitting issues with their uppers but the NIB-X combo with their BCG is slick.

3. Barrel = Noveske, Satern, LW, Rainier, Wilson Combat, DD, Centurian, BCM, Spikes (Melonite), ARP, White Oak; Mid Length gas.................Melonite over Ionbond in my opin. Consider Wylde vs Mil Spec.

4. Rail = 12-13", Midwest Industries, Noveske, Troy, Centurian, Samson Evo

5. Buffer tube - KAC or PWS, then Colt, BCM, LMT

6. Grip - MIAD or Ergo most likely

7. Muzzle Device - BCM Mod, battlecomp?, PWS, Rainier?, WC?

8. Gas Block - Lo pro

9. Charger - BCM, PRI, Rainier Raptor,

10. BCG - BCM, Colt, DD, KAC, WMD, ARP bolts, Leitner-Weise?,

11. Stock - Magpul ACS, ACS-L, CTR, STR or MOE Fixed Carbine; BCM B5, LMT SOPMOD,

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I like the idea of a swap-top upper; it permits greater versatility more affordably. The Stag Model 3H tempts me, as does the Model 3GH despite its higher tariff.

I prefer my Model 6's A2 stock for its simplicity, a flattop for its compatibility with a variety of optical and/or reflex sighting systems, and a full height Pic gas block that permits mounting ready to use angled BUIS without any alignment issues that a lower profile block may present.

Greg

 

[ZombieMonkey]

If you do go LMT, stick with the DI versions as the only proprietary part you need to worry about if you start swapping things would be barrels. (Which there are companies that can make the needed cut to allow you to use non-LMT barrels in an MRP). Then again, that's my recommendation as a whole on the DI vs Piston in the AR 15. Much less proprietary crap do deal with if you avoid them and to be honest they are simply not needed.

 

[jfv350z]

ok so i will buying a aimpoint seperatly from the rifle, so im not including that into the actual cost of the rifle.

the only reason im not going to build a ar is for 2 reasons;
-first even though the ar platform is for the most part modular, when you hand pick every component, all those components are not tested with each other. im not saying that it wouldnt work 100% off the bat, but it just hasnt been tested, vs a factory gun where the manufacturer has everything built around their spec and tolerances, and then tests those components together.
-second is that i want a warranty with the rifle, not a individual component. i dont want to deal with the hassle of contacting multiple manufactures if multiple items fail.

im leaning towards a DD M4 V7 (https://danieldefense.com/daniel-defense-m4-carbine-v7-no-sights.html). Troy BUIS with tritium, aimpoint comp m4, 1/2 point sling, some sort of light, and then I think im going to get the whole rifle NP3 coated.

again not 100% sure, but what are people's opinions on this?

 

[ZombieMonkey]

If it suits your needs and desires for your first AR then I would say you have selected a great gun. DD does make a quality product and for the price you do get a nice rifle.

Only thing I would suggest is unless you're set on a CompM4 would be a Micro or the PRO. I'm loving the Micro right now and if I was running an optic for work again I would be running a Micro. The PRO has a lot of the same features as the M4 in a cheaper package and I ran one for work on my patrol rifle for a period of time and it did well.

 

[jfv350z]

Only thing I would suggest is unless you're set on a CompM4 would be a Micro or the PRO. I'm loving the Micro right now and if I was running an optic for work again I would be running a Micro. The PRO has a lot of the same features as the M4 in a cheaper package and I ran one for work on my patrol rifle for a period of time and it did well.

I would prefer the comp m4 because it uses AA batteries vs the camera batteries in the pro/micro. it all depends on how much i really feel like spending when i go to pick it up. the last time i went to look at ARs at my LGS the sales guy was pushing a Truglow red dot for $100.

whats your opinion on the pof 415

 

[ZombieMonkey]

For how long the batteries last, I wouldn't worry too much. The PRO does use a battery that can be a PITA to find locally, but the Micro runs on standard CR2032 batteries which you can find everywhere.

I cannot give you an honest review of the POF, as the closest to shooting one is watching others at the range with them. All I could say is that they seem to be hit or miss and I don't think they are worth the prices they ask. I'd love to support an AZ gun manufacturer, though I'd pass personally as there are many other proven systems out there for less money.

 

[jfv350z]

I have read a bunch of horror stories about their earlier rifles and their ar-10 styled rifles. but everything recent about them has been good. the only 2 things that turn me off is their warranty; which is 3 years, and their cost. for $400 more then a plain pof 415 i can get a lwrc m6a2 spr. which comes with something like an additional $500-$600 worth of accessories, a lifetime warranty and customer service that is top notch.

I think that in a SHTF situation a well thought out piston system, along with some sort of self lubing coating like NP3, would get you the most use in between maintenance/lubrication intervals. that being said i think a long stroke system like an AK or the PWS piston system is the best solution but i dont have a local dealer for PWS.

I got a call that the Ruger sr 556 that i ordered was received, but i think im not going to take delivery and put the 20% i put down towards a DD rifle instead. saves me some money and i think im getting a better overall rifle, that is easier for the end user to customize and maintain.

 

[Wolf22]

NP3 is fine, but i'd consider a quality Cerakote - pick your color and get er doll'd up.

Fully understand the Buy over build.

Don't forget to look into mating complete uppers with lowers. The lower is a non issue to build up, if its the barrel and bolt / go,no go issue holding you back from a full build.

Mega and about any top tier upper work very well. Noveske and BCM uppers are 'nice'.

Good call on the switch back to DD over Ruger, not saying the R is not worth it, but they were only 11-1200 prior to freakout #??? and like you stated, a few bucks more gets you something proven or well respected at least.

 

[jfv350z]

NP3 is fine, but i'd consider a quality Cerakote - pick your color and get er doll'd up.

Good call on the switch back to DD over Ruger, not saying the R is not worth it, but they were only 11-1200 prior to freakout #??? and like you stated, a few bucks more gets you something proven or well respected at least.

the reason im looking at np3 is because of its self lubing properties, not so much for corrosion resistance. as i understand it cerakote is really for corrosion restance. its not that it doesnt help with friction; its a ceramic from what i understand and ceramics usually have very low friction coefficients. but that is all it does; protect and decreases friction. it is also just a coating, or a baked on paint. while np3 is on the gun (before it wears off which takes a considerable amount of time but happens with any coating) it self lubricates. so if for whatever reason you couldnt lube the rifle, it should operate just fine because of these properties. and bonding is a superior process of getting a material to stick to a surface. but its mainly the self lubing properties that drew me to NP3.

my LGS is over priced when it comes to rifles, but i have a couple of friends who work there and they have been good to me and to the local community, so i support them. the DD rifle is actually $250 cheaper then the ruger. still $1500 for the DD which is very high compared to other places. but their inflated prices are only on ARs and ammo.

 

[Crosshair]

I would go with the Daniels over the Ruger, mainly due to this being a shtf gun. Piston guns all have different proprietary parts that still can and will eventually fail. DI guns are simpler, lighter, have way more readily available parts, are slightly more inherently accurate, and function perfectly if setup right. With proper buffer weight, gassing, mil spec parts, Pmags, and lube; function should be 100%. IMO, the piston system is an answer to a problem that docent really exist, at least in the way that DI's are portrayed, especially by AK guys. I personally have around 1800 rounds through an SPR I built last year with ZERO hiccups of ANY sort. I have only cleaned the action maybe 3 or 4 times. I run a bore snake down it about every 200 rnds. Just a quick wipe down of the (chrome) bolt and its done. NiB BCG's are nice, but I'd rather have a higher end Phosphate bcg than a lower end NiB, without a doubt. When in doubt, you can always look at how Bravo Company builds their rifles, and see what the guys in harm's way are running.
With all that being said, the Seal's new short-stroke piston HK 416 is incredibly sexy!