First go at reloading. Need advice.

C

Canepole

Full Member
Full Member
Minuteman
Dec 7, 2013
246
1
USA
#1
I loaded 20 rds of .308 from once fired fgmm brass. The brass measured a thou over zero on the rcbs precision mic. I bumped the shoulder back 2 thousandths with the rcbs fl sizing die. Trimmed the neck back to 2.010 oal. Deburred.
44.5 gr imr 4064
seated the 168 Sierra matchking at .203 with the precision mic. Fgmm is .194. Both are way off the lands.
cci primers- #200
Everything was going great with accuracy. On 7 out of the 10 rds the bolt lift at the top was a very hard click and then it ejected fine. After bumping the twice fired case back .002 it chambered fine. I would still get the hard click when I would rechamber the fired reloaded brass case. The primers seem to look very flat but as you can see in the pic so did the once fired fgmm. I'm not used to posting topics so please bare with me with the setup and pics. Any help would be appreciated- thanks

Edit: Accurate Ordinance rifle
Rem 700 action trued c prefix
Bartlein barrel

 

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#2
You're primers are not flattened. When they're flattened you'll loose all or most of the gap/ring around the primer - the space between the inside of the pocket and the outside of the primer. The case on the right in the picture below is a flattened primer. It's hard to tell from the picture but I can't see any ejector marks either. You should be able to go up in your charge, if you want to.

There's a lot of vertical stringing in your groups. I'd keep experimenting to see if you can find a load that produces a rounder shape or more horizontal dispersion to your group. Definitely off to a good start, though!

Are you using a chronograph to record velocities?

01397ee95a40989996d76b9eba8f3fef.jpg



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#3
Thanks for the response. I don't have a chronograph at this time but its on the to do list. What do you think is causing the hard bolt lift at the very top? I had to actually grab the scope ring to pop it on up. After that the ejection went smooth. 7 out of the 10 rds were like that.
 
#4
Can you show a picture or the side of the case? The hard lift at the top is when the bolt cam engages (primary extraction) and the case is pulled from the fired position in the chamber. You might have chamber size / clearance issues with the case, neck diameter. This can be fixed once we see where the issue is.

Can you provide:
Neck diameter of loaded round?
Neck diameter of fired case?
Any diameter change in the head area?
Last time you inspected and thoroughly cleaned the chamber?
Something is sticking....

Caming_Bolt.jpg
 
#5
I will try and provide all that tonight. The once fired cases chamber and eject fine. The 2nds not so much. And after I bump a 2nd fired case back .002 it will chamber and eject.
 
#6
Canepole said:
I will try and provide all that tonight. The once fired cases chamber and eject fine. The 2nds not so much. And after I bump a 2nd fired case back .002 it will chamber and eject.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you are also sizing the entire case and not just bumping the shoulders back on the second sized. As you shoot them more and more there is less spring back as the case gets worked hardened. Since it springs back less it will be larger.

More measurements at each position (case neck diameters, shoulder lengths, shoulder diameters, case web diameters) will allow you to narrow down on what the difference is. My money is that its is at the case web.
 
#7
spife7980 said:
Yeah, but you are also sizing the entire case and not just bumping the shoulders back on the second sized. As you shoot them more and more there is less spring back as the case gets worked hardened. Since it springs back less it will be larger.

More measurements at each position (case neck diameters, shoulder lengths, shoulder diameters, case web diameters) will allow you to narrow down on what the difference is. My money is that its is at the case web.
Click to expand...

You are right. I wasn't thinking about fl sizing. My mind was on the bump I guess I will try and get all the measurements tonight. Will this require a mic or will a caliper do the trick. Thanks
 
#8
A mic would be nice as more precision is always better but you should be able to tell with a caliper if thats all you have. Another .001 of shoulder bump could cure all that ails you as well. As the full length screws into the press it not only bumps the shoulders but due to the angular nature of the case walls squeezes the bottom a bit more as well. I would measure before you go unecessarily bumping your brass back though.

 
#9
Inner neck dia .304-5
outer neck dia. .3415
outer neck loaded .337
case head dia. .569-.570

i did notice some soot on the necks and a couple of dents under the microscope. I had not noticed the dents before.

sorry the photos aren't that great. They are from my old iPad. I'm still new at all this. I mostly just read on the site. Thanks
 

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#13
Yeah, its always a possibility that you are over pressure but youre not by the hodgdon websites reloading center 41.5-45.9. Back down to a lower node and see if your clickers go away. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Soot isnt a problem, it should clean off just fine if youre so inclined or you can not worry about it. If you dont know where the dents came from I wouldnt really worry about them, its tough to tell in the pics but it looks like maybe on the body right under the shoulders? Since I cant tell I would say they should fire out with the caveat that they are just light smooth dents and not gouges or deep scores. If they occurred after sizing and they are right below the shoulder thats probably from using too much wet lube. Liquids (hydraulics) dont compress so it pushes the relatively soft brass in.

Are your measurements of fired or sized? Because they dont seem consistent. A fired and a sized for each dimension wold be helpful to do away with misinterpretation.

You inner seems like it would be sized (?). .003-.004 in neck tension is high but still functional.
Your outer seems like it would be fired.
You loaded dia would have to be sized and so your presumably fired diameter less loaded is .3415-.337=.0045 which means your brass has .002 to expand on each side which should be fine. (.337-.308)/2=.0145 is the thickness of your necks. That all leads me to think that you arent constricted where the bullet or neck are concerned.

Coat your fired that dont fit in the sharpie and chamber them (obviously trying to not let them rub the entire way in) to see where they are rubbing and not fitting.
 
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#14
spife7980 said:
Yeah, its always a possibility that you are over pressure but youre not by the hodgdon websites reloading center 41.5-45.9. Back down to a lower node and see if your clickers go away. http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Soot isnt a problem, it should clean off just fine if youre so inclined or you can not worry about it. If you dont know where the dents came from I wouldnt really worry about them, its tough to tell in the pics but it looks like maybe on the body right under the shoulders? Since I cant tell I would say they should fire out with the caveat that they are just light smooth dents and not gouges or deep scores. If they occurred after sizing and they are right below the shoulder thats probably from using too much wet lube. Liquids (hydraulics) dont compress so it pushes the relatively soft brass in.

Are your measurements of fired or sized? Because they dont seem consistent. A fired and a sized for each dimension wold be helpful to do away with misinterpretatseaterYou inner seems like it would be sized (?). .003-.004 in neck tension is high but still functional.
Your outer seems like it would be fired.
You loaded dia would have to be sized and so your presumably fired diameter less loaded is .3415-.337=.0045 which means your brass has .002 to expand on each side which should be fine. (.337-.308)/2=.0145 is the thickness of your necks. That all leads me to think that you arent constricted where the bullet or neck are concerned.

Coat your fired that dont fit in the sharpie and chamber them (obviously trying to not let them rub the entire way in) to see where they are rubbing and not fitting.
Click to expand...

Will do on the sharpie. Those measurement on the inner neck were the twice fired. Best i could do was get .305 mostly. I tried to get accurate readings but it could be me. It seems when I seat a bullet the case may rub the bullet and scrape it. Rcbs competition seater. I brushed the neck off after seating. Thanks

 
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#15
Canepole said:
It seems when I seat a bullet the case may rub the bullet and scrape it. Rcbs competition seater. I brushed the neck off after seating. Thanks
Click to expand...

Use a chamfer tool and it will bevel the case edge so that it doesnt bite into the bullet http://www.brownells.com/reloading/c...e%20(Ascending)
A deburr tool is the same thing but for the outside. The 2 in ones are nice in that you get both but they are small and depending on your dexterity may tire out your hands.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"355","width":"473","src":"https:\/\/media.midwayusa.com\/productimages\/880x660\/Primary\/435\/435351.jpg"}[/IMG2]
 
#16
spife7980 said:
Use a chamfer tool and it will bevel the case edge so that it doesnt bite into the bullet http://www.brownells.com/reloading/c...e%20(Ascending)
A deburr tool is the same thing but for the outside. The 2 in ones are nice in that you get both but they are small and depending on your dexterity may tire out your hands.
[IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","height":"355","width":"473","src":"https:\/\/media.midwayusa.com\/productimages\/880x660\/Primary\/435\/435351.jpg"}[/IMG2]
Click to expand...

Ok thanks
 
#21
Canepole said:
I will try and provide all that tonight. The once fired cases chamber and eject fine. The 2nds not so much. And after I bump a 2nd fired case back .002 it will chamber and eject.
Click to expand...

From your description, I'd say you don't have any problems. Just be sure to pick one comparator and use only that one.

I've spent quite a bit of time with 4064 and in every rifle, I hit pressure signs before the published max. I'd say you're right at the upper limit. Try reducing that load to about 42.8 to 43 grains and see what happens.

Continue FL sizing with the .002 bump.
 
#22
I agree about reducing the load. Between hard bolt lift and flattening primers, that's a pair of high pressure indicators.

Prudence dictates starting low and working up. I limit my my .308 175-178gr load to 42.2gr of IMR-4064 (because it works), and would suggest trying a starting load of 42.5gr of IMR-4064, then working up from there. You may find you're already there.

My load uses commercial brass (Win, Rem, and HDY; and I'm trying out Prvi-Partizan at the moment), which has more capacity than military brass and is somewhat more tolerant of higher charge weights.

While accuracy can be a product of high working pressures, it comes at a price, Brass work hardens sooner, and primer pockets expand until they won't hold a primer at a lower number of reloadings. Necks harden and neck tension becomes inconsistent and unreliable.

Then, there's also the cumulative effect of higher pressure cycles and their influence on the barrel's metal fatigue (MTBF) factor, as well as accelerated throat wear.

Think of the chamber as a pressure vessel that is subjected to between 50,000psi and 65,000psi instantaneously every time it's fired. Total cumulative barrel transit times over the lifetime of the barrel are measured in fewer seconds than a minute or two. The wear we see through a borescope takes place in a very small accumulated span of time. Running at or beyond advisable pressures adds logarithmically to this burden. In essence, handloaders are bomb makers on a very small, but still very significant, scale. There are responsibilities involved. You put your head and moneymaker hand within a foot of what you've just loaded.

Brass life is a secondary priority to metal fatigue in my thinking. Brass is cheap compared to barrels and brain cases.

Better to start low and find the lower accuracy node(s). Worth a try, anyway.

The 168gr bullets tend to be pretty accurate in the .308, but I don't use them for the longest distances beyond 800yd. Out there, I prefer the 175SMK or the 178 ELD-X. I use the 168"in the .30-'06, which has a better performance out at the longer distances, and the '06 is my preferred hunting chambering where terminal performance is at the premium.

But my serious 1000yd chambering is the .260; it has the trajectory of the .30-'06 with less recoil than the .308.

Greg
 
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#23
Thanks for all the advice guys. I will definitely back off and start lower this time. I've read about several disasters on here and want to avoid making those mistakes. I was initially going to just shoot factory ammo but I had all this brass. So I started buying things here and there over the last year or two and here I am.
I was hoping to get it right the first time but I know I still have a lot to learn. I will let everyone know how it goes- thanks
 
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