Buying first night vision setup need some advice. I don't have unlimited funds but would like something that could transition from being helmet mounted to a rifle. Is it worth buying used or new? Who is the most reasonable to buy from? Currently cant hunt at night in pa but keeping my hopes high! So usage for right now would be out back looking at squirrels and wandering on friends property in northern pa.
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Night Vision First Night vision purchase.....thoughts?
- Thread starter FreeballsDSG
- Start date
In general NV is better for navigating, moving around. You can usually see more detail. But conditions can be such that thermal can see better terrain detail sometimes.
The first item that came to mind for your stated purposes was the IR Patrol. Very flexible, great image among the helmet/head mountable group. And can be weapons mounted. Primary weaknesses are that it is larger/heavier that most of the other helmet mountables and once zeroed the focus ring cannot be moved without throwing off the zero. This can be mitigated by marking (with a raised mark you can feel on both the movable side and the stationary side, so the focus ring can be brought back to the zeroing position by feel).
Thermal is definitely better for detecting the critters and with the BAE core, IDing the critters is hardly a chore.
How far will you be needing to scan?
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The other "classical" sort of answer is a PVS-14 (or equivalent) with an ir-laser on the rifle. The 14 can see critters that are "in the open" .. i.e. not behind or in vegetation or in wood piles etc. And an ir-laser on the rifle.
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For new gear, you could squeeze in to the IR-Patrol with bump helmet setup without the weapon mount for about $7,000 maybe a bit less. For used, take off $1,000 anyway.
PVS-14 with bump helmet setup for around $5,000.
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I would proceed as follows:
01 - Keep working on your use cases and get them nailed down in detail.- this is the most important part of the buying process - understand what you need. Most people skip this part.
02 - Make possible lists of gear that match your use cases, use shown prices for your estimating.
(work on 01 and 02 for a while until you firm up your list)(we can help - but you doing the research and understanding more about the gear will help you be sure you are zeroing in on what matches your use cases)
03 - Get on the phone with three dealers who sell the major items on your list. Talk to all three before you decide which one to go with. You will learn from all of them.
Separate the "what to buy" decision from the "who to buy it from" decision or you might wind up buying what the dealer needs to sell instead of what you need to buy.
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A thermal clipon like an Apollo could also work. I've used that as a handheld spotter on a lanyard and it can also be mounted in front of day scopes. I've seen a used one, 640,42mm for $4,400 recently.
The first item that came to mind for your stated purposes was the IR Patrol. Very flexible, great image among the helmet/head mountable group. And can be weapons mounted. Primary weaknesses are that it is larger/heavier that most of the other helmet mountables and once zeroed the focus ring cannot be moved without throwing off the zero. This can be mitigated by marking (with a raised mark you can feel on both the movable side and the stationary side, so the focus ring can be brought back to the zeroing position by feel).
Thermal is definitely better for detecting the critters and with the BAE core, IDing the critters is hardly a chore.
How far will you be needing to scan?
==
The other "classical" sort of answer is a PVS-14 (or equivalent) with an ir-laser on the rifle. The 14 can see critters that are "in the open" .. i.e. not behind or in vegetation or in wood piles etc. And an ir-laser on the rifle.
==
For new gear, you could squeeze in to the IR-Patrol with bump helmet setup without the weapon mount for about $7,000 maybe a bit less. For used, take off $1,000 anyway.
PVS-14 with bump helmet setup for around $5,000.
==
I would proceed as follows:
01 - Keep working on your use cases and get them nailed down in detail.- this is the most important part of the buying process - understand what you need. Most people skip this part.
02 - Make possible lists of gear that match your use cases, use shown prices for your estimating.
(work on 01 and 02 for a while until you firm up your list)(we can help - but you doing the research and understanding more about the gear will help you be sure you are zeroing in on what matches your use cases)
03 - Get on the phone with three dealers who sell the major items on your list. Talk to all three before you decide which one to go with. You will learn from all of them.
Separate the "what to buy" decision from the "who to buy it from" decision or you might wind up buying what the dealer needs to sell instead of what you need to buy.
==
A thermal clipon like an Apollo could also work. I've used that as a handheld spotter on a lanyard and it can also be mounted in front of day scopes. I've seen a used one, 640,42mm for $4,400 recently.
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Thank you wigwamitus! Never even thought about that route. I have a helmet so I guess that's a start haha. I'm going to dig in tomorrow and really find out what it's primary uses are. Most of my situations are at 25-150yds max 300.
Last night I saw 4 deer at 600yds, through two tree lines across two pastures and in to the third. I like knowing when the deer are on our land and where they are. There is no way to see deer through two trees lines at 600yds with NV AFAIK. IR-illuminator would bounce off the trees and prevent seeing through them. Thermal cannot see THRU trees, but tree lines, especially in the cool half of the year have many gaps and we see through the gaps. And the shape may be tough to ID, but if you watch a while , you might see a head with some ears or some movement patterns and you can ID based on that.
I was using IRD mk3, 35mm cranked to 2x digital (5x net).
So you say you only want to see 300yds .. but the IR-Patrol will enable to you see much farther ... including into and through woods. Are you sure about that 300yds ?
I was using IRD mk3, 35mm cranked to 2x digital (5x net).
So you say you only want to see 300yds .. but the IR-Patrol will enable to you see much farther ... including into and through woods. Are you sure about that 300yds ?
Take your time, so much to learn about this topic. WIGWAMITUS has helped me it the past. He is extremely knowledgeable on Thermal and NV. Watch out for those PA timber rattlers.
If you're mostly wanting to hunt (eventually) and spot animals I'd go thermal. If you want to use it too walk / drive around in the dark head mounted then either single or dual NV (PVS-14 or Sentinels etc). NV is still difficult to spot many animals at night with unless you shine their eyes with IR. For what you're describing a handheld thermal might be a really good option. Then later get something to mount on a rifle to hunt with and you'll still use the spotter all the time.
Also, helmet mounted thermal gives lots of people (me included) a headache. Head mounted NV is very natural though. In my opinion you're almost better off to try to budget a couple smaller items (lesser price thermal + maybe used PVS-14 + IR laser or a rifle scope of some sort) than one big unit like a Trijicon Reap-IR. They're insanely good (I have one) but head mounting it isn't great. It does work good as a spotter though.
I used to get headaches with looking thru thermal at night a lot ... turning down the brightness and using less intense pallets wiped out the headaches for me.
Aaron gave me some filters to try so I will try those also. Reducing the viz light out of the back of the thermal is a good thing for several reasons: Messing with our night vision in our eyes, giving the critters some viz light against our bodies to spot, giving us headaches.
So, filters, reduced brightness, less intense pallets all can help. But, does this reduce detection ability? Yes, a bit, I think.
The BAE cores have a certain "wow" factor over the FLIR cores (at least the ones we can buy) ... this may be because of software priorities. BAE emphsizing terrain and FLIR emphasizing hot stuff (critters, bad guys, etc.)
But for me, the IRD Pallets, the 7 black and white pallets (3 white hot, 3 black hot and 1 edge detect) are wonderful. And I can easily give up the "LSD Trip" pallets in the FLIR cores. I run my IRD M3, 35mm, 2.5x, 640(60) on the black hot pallet just to the right of center most often and it is not intense gives a great view of the terrain and easy detection of critters in most cases. If I am not sure, I flip over to white and and check it out. The zoom is on the same menus item (#1) so I can quickly zoom also to increase ID ability.
But within the Armasights and ATNs the "red hot" and "sepia" pallets are interesting and can greatly reduce eye fatigue.
So what about reduced detection? There have been 2 times in 2 years, where the FLIR cores saw some thing the BAE cores did not. FLIR has an advantage in this department in my experience and due to their software priorities ... But if I could have just one thermal, it would have a BAE core.
So, filters, reduced brightness, less intense pallets all can help. But, does this reduce detection ability? Yes, a bit, I think.
The BAE cores have a certain "wow" factor over the FLIR cores (at least the ones we can buy) ... this may be because of software priorities. BAE emphsizing terrain and FLIR emphasizing hot stuff (critters, bad guys, etc.)
But for me, the IRD Pallets, the 7 black and white pallets (3 white hot, 3 black hot and 1 edge detect) are wonderful. And I can easily give up the "LSD Trip" pallets in the FLIR cores. I run my IRD M3, 35mm, 2.5x, 640(60) on the black hot pallet just to the right of center most often and it is not intense gives a great view of the terrain and easy detection of critters in most cases. If I am not sure, I flip over to white and and check it out. The zoom is on the same menus item (#1) so I can quickly zoom also to increase ID ability.
But within the Armasights and ATNs the "red hot" and "sepia" pallets are interesting and can greatly reduce eye fatigue.
So what about reduced detection? There have been 2 times in 2 years, where the FLIR cores saw some thing the BAE cores did not. FLIR has an advantage in this department in my experience and due to their software priorities ... But if I could have just one thermal, it would have a BAE core.
I use an Armasight clip on CO-X on the rifle and for spotting I have an Armasight thermal handheld and a PVS-7. The thermal is great for picking up the the target and I use the PVS-7 to positively ID it. Then the clip on comes into play. My CO-X is only a Gen 2 but works well with a little IR illumination out to about 300 yds. I picked up the thermal and PVS on the used market and the clip on new. Total investment about 5k.
