A friend of mine and I decided to sign up for a PRS 2 day match next month in Cambria CA. I've just ventured out past 300 yards in the last couple of years and am comfortable with my shooting ability. I have zero expectations as far as ranking, I simply want the experience of doing it. I do however want to have a decent idea of what to expect. I've read the rules, no issues there. I've been reading some posts on here for first matches (read all 3 pages of Raptoraddicts post) and watched a few Youtube videos from that post. I originally intended to use my Remington 700 in .308 Win but the more I look into it the more I'm having second thoughts. It has a standard floor plate and is not magazine fed. On top of that it's single feed as my hand loads are 2.908" to get to within .020" to the lands so even if i switched bottom metal mags won't work. Thinking about switching guns and using my 6.5 Grendel gas gun. It's lighter, less recoil and has a very similar bullet drop as compared to my .308. I don't think ill have a good time trying to single feed a bolt gun from the odd positions that it seems I'm going to encounter. What are your opinions on gun selection and any other advice for a first PRS match is certainly appreciated. Thanks.
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First PRS match next month, interested in opinions on what to shoot
- Thread starter Markbsae
- Start date
One real issue with gas guns is their reliability. It seriously sucks when you commit to a 2-day match and the gun you sign up with jams and malfunctions every stage. I mean it really sucks. If you're in the SoCal region I would consider trying out one on the 1st: https://practiscore.com/sdprc-september-2024-prs-regional-clone/register
Well, I'd shoot the targets!!
Jk, have fun!
Jk, have fun!
You are gonna hate it, you’ll probably hit 30ish percent of the targets while more than half of the other shooters will hit 70ish percent. You say you don’t care now but in your own head it’s gonna mess with you while you’re out there in the 90 degree weather.
At 2 day matches, people aren’t allowed to call where misses are and they won’t tell you what target order to correct once you’re on the clock; you’ll think people are judging your score subconsciously but in reality no one will care. People are just gonna be focusing on their game.
My advice is sell the 2 day slot. Go shoot a few local one day matches.
At 2 day matches, people aren’t allowed to call where misses are and they won’t tell you what target order to correct once you’re on the clock; you’ll think people are judging your score subconsciously but in reality no one will care. People are just gonna be focusing on their game.
My advice is sell the 2 day slot. Go shoot a few local one day matches.
It's my impression that the 2 day matches are like major league baseball games. It might be wise to play a couple games in the minor leagues first.
Shoot a one day match. Dont do 2 until you are 2-day fit. It does take physical and mental strength to do it.
You don't need to be .020" off the lands so you could work a load that seats deeper if you wanted to with the .308. The 5 round internal is a game killer though so a mag is needed.
That said you could get a chassis, MDT mags without binder plate which allow out to 2.960" and then grind back the feed ramp in the 700 action so it will load longer ammo and run the load you have now. That's money getting dropped so not sure how much you want to drop for your first match.
But in the end the easy button is the Grendel as you don't have to do anything. Might be the way to go as long as it's reliable. Then you can see how you need to rework your .308 to make it work for matches.
That said you could get a chassis, MDT mags without binder plate which allow out to 2.960" and then grind back the feed ramp in the 700 action so it will load longer ammo and run the load you have now. That's money getting dropped so not sure how much you want to drop for your first match.
But in the end the easy button is the Grendel as you don't have to do anything. Might be the way to go as long as it's reliable. Then you can see how you need to rework your .308 to make it work for matches.
I’d totally agree. My first ever rifle match I hit 1 out of 11 targets
but still had a good time. A post mortem revealed I had tumbling media in the flash holes of some of the brass. Total rookie mistake. I’ve never lacked mental fortitude and have only ever shot against myself. I’m gen x so I don’t require al the petting and encouragement millennials do. I’m not worried about not having a good time but like to be as prepared as is reasonable.
You can't shoot a PRS match single feed.
You need to mag feed so that leaves you with either shooting the gas gun or making some changes to the .308.
As mentioned there is no need to be that close to the lands, you can likely push those back to mag feed.
You need to mag feed so that leaves you with either shooting the gas gun or making some changes to the .308.
As mentioned there is no need to be that close to the lands, you can likely push those back to mag feed.
FWIW media in the flash hole has basically no affect on ammo.I’d totally agree. My first ever rifle match I hit 1 out of 11 targets
Sounds like you already have the right idea to run the Grendel. If it runs, and will run for at least 150 rounds straight without any maintenance, then that's your huckleberry.
Other things you should do are ensure you have a good shooting bag and bipod setup (the AG Shmedium is the obvious choice, you'll need to remove sand to get it right), and practice getting stable on different heights on a ladder. Stability means a wobble zone as small as you can make it; for a beginner, I'd recommend a wobble zone less than 0.3 mil diameter at every height from standing to low seated is a great goal. You can work this without ever pulling a trigger.
Once you have the minimum gear for quality practice, and have determined what your body positions need to be to achieve reasonable stability at typical prop heights, the only other two things I'd make sure you have dialed are target acquisition and data management. Your ballistic solver of choice needs to be correct out to the max target range you expect to encounter, and you need to know how to fix it if it's not right, or at least have someone help you fix it. Target acquisition and gear issues are the two biggest killers of newer shooters' scores; target acquisition is another thing that's very, very easy to practice for free.
Good luck, and feel free to ask for advice early! It's best to get advice from a shooter that's performing really well, and is about 4-6 shooters away from you in the rotation. That way they can talk to you, and then still have time to focus on their game.
Other things you should do are ensure you have a good shooting bag and bipod setup (the AG Shmedium is the obvious choice, you'll need to remove sand to get it right), and practice getting stable on different heights on a ladder. Stability means a wobble zone as small as you can make it; for a beginner, I'd recommend a wobble zone less than 0.3 mil diameter at every height from standing to low seated is a great goal. You can work this without ever pulling a trigger.
Once you have the minimum gear for quality practice, and have determined what your body positions need to be to achieve reasonable stability at typical prop heights, the only other two things I'd make sure you have dialed are target acquisition and data management. Your ballistic solver of choice needs to be correct out to the max target range you expect to encounter, and you need to know how to fix it if it's not right, or at least have someone help you fix it. Target acquisition and gear issues are the two biggest killers of newer shooters' scores; target acquisition is another thing that's very, very easy to practice for free.
Good luck, and feel free to ask for advice early! It's best to get advice from a shooter that's performing really well, and is about 4-6 shooters away from you in the rotation. That way they can talk to you, and then still have time to focus on their game.
I would shoot the grendel, put your best scope on it and take it out and actually hit targets at known distances and lining up your ballistic calculator so you ensure that know where the rifle actually shoots.
Or if you dont mind the money and it’s already threaded then get a krg bravo for cheap somewhere and notch the bolt action underneath with a dremel to clear the long rounds out of an aics mag (looking up through a hollowed out mag)
The biggest frustration is people that show up and dont know how their gun works or shoots and spend the day working on gathering preliminary data instead of simply shooting the stages.
Or if you dont mind the money and it’s already threaded then get a krg bravo for cheap somewhere and notch the bolt action underneath with a dremel to clear the long rounds out of an aics mag (looking up through a hollowed out mag)
The biggest frustration is people that show up and dont know how their gun works or shoots and spend the day working on gathering preliminary data instead of simply shooting the stages.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^all good advice.
You need good DOPE. Make sure your inputs to your solver are rock solid. It's just hard to true that with only 300 yards. You have to be a lot more exacting when you shoot a waterline if you're only going out to 300 and plan to shoot triple or more that distance. Much easier to dope the rifle at longer distances. It's impossible to get good DOPE at a match. The rifle has to be on beforehand or it's going to be very frustrating.
If your confidence is not high I would have to agree that you'll like a local, tactical, steel match better. If you're confident you know your holds then I'd say do it.
You need good DOPE. Make sure your inputs to your solver are rock solid. It's just hard to true that with only 300 yards. You have to be a lot more exacting when you shoot a waterline if you're only going out to 300 and plan to shoot triple or more that distance. Much easier to dope the rifle at longer distances. It's impossible to get good DOPE at a match. The rifle has to be on beforehand or it's going to be very frustrating.
If your confidence is not high I would have to agree that you'll like a local, tactical, steel match better. If you're confident you know your holds then I'd say do it.
tough talk coming from a guy asking for help
I've heard more whininess and excuses at matches from men over 40 than under.
Everyone else is covering the basics, so I'll advise you to stay humble
If simply switching from standard to magnum primers has a noticeable effect on velocity I’d call it plausible. Especially with synthetic media that doesn’t burn. The guy on the spotting scope said I was about 4’ low at 300 yards. The optic has a zero stop so if I was a turn out (which I verified I was not) I would have shot high. I verified dope which was within 1 moa. Scope was tight. I used a collet puller and broke down the remainder of the rounds (prepped in the same group) and found the media. I don’t have anything else that I can attribute the problem to. The two previous weekends I verified everything at the same range, same target ranges. I had velocity with a sd of 9fps and was within 1 moa out to 600 with 750 about 1.5. I had minimal actual dope corrections from my calculator. So, maybe like you say the media didn’t cause it but I was thorough in my checks and found nothing else.
Some really good advice in this thread for a new game shooter. The main things are be safe/ know your dope/ know how to get into positions and eliminate wobble/ timely target acquisition. I too am in the camp of shooting a few 1 day local matches with the grendel or with a newly purchased KRG bravo and some mags (you can likely find a $300 bravo and a few 10 round mags for $50 a piece) . The two day matches of any kind are long on the body and the mind. Oh and don't worry about shotting at all the engagements on a stage. You need to hit targets to pick up points so hitting 3 targets and only engaging 6 is better than missing all 10. Best of luck
As far as the rifle goes it runs without issue. I had round stripping and bolt lock issues when first put together but found a standard buffer was what I needed instead of the heavier one the barrel maker said to start with. I totally agree with dope at distance as that is where the deviation from the calculator was more pronounced. The match location will certainly be cooler than I'm used to shooting in. I had planned on having solid dope and determining corrections for atmospherics on the sight in day. I’ve done a few smaller local matches already and am aware of the jump in talent level a two day PRS match will have. Thats a decent part of the appeal is seeing accomplished people in action. Good info man. Thanks.
I'm not sure what to make of all that. Basically you had other issues. 4' low at 300 is a ton.
just go and have fun
Sounds like your BC is off
This is with your .308 correct? For how many shots? Media in flash holes of ammunition that yields 9 fps SDs won't cause POI shift of >12 MOA @ 300 yards. Something else is way off, e.g. your optic is broken, the spotter can't spot, you had an edge hit(s)...
Please take this with some Love.
DO NOT shoot a 2 day match as your first match , ESPECIALLY with a gas gun. You are going to have a terrible time, you are going to be stressed by the pace and are going to annoy the fellow shooters even if they don't say it to your face. Its not the time and place when you A. dont even have a gun remotely setup for it and B. have zero prs shooting experience and C. Shooting a gas gun which is dangerous enough with experienced competitors.
Sell the slot and go shoot a bunch of 1 day PRS matches. They will be much more new shooter friendly, and you can figure out what kind of gear and mods you want. Get a few matches under you belt so you at least understand the flow and rythm of a PRS match, there are alot of rules and procedures you need to learn to not be THAT guy.
This is not to say people don't want you to have a good time. Shooters are super supportive and will give you gear and the shirt of their back if you need it. But don't put your squad into that kind of situation. There is a very high chance you will ND with a gas gun at your first match, when you get frazzled on the clock. Getting sent home a few hours into day 1 is going to be more embarrassing than missing a bunch of targets. A 2 day match on the clock is not the time to learn gas gun manipulation.
You can shoot a ton of 1 day matches for what a 2 day match costs overall and I promise you, you will have way more fun and feel more comfortable than at a 2 day match.
Even if you have a complete race gun setup with all the gear, you are going to suck ass your first couple matches. Just know that now. Its a very humbling experience so just go into it knowing last place is a likely scenario. Add in guns not setup to shoot PRS, and its going to be a rough go.
DO NOT shoot a 2 day match as your first match , ESPECIALLY with a gas gun. You are going to have a terrible time, you are going to be stressed by the pace and are going to annoy the fellow shooters even if they don't say it to your face. Its not the time and place when you A. dont even have a gun remotely setup for it and B. have zero prs shooting experience and C. Shooting a gas gun which is dangerous enough with experienced competitors.
Sell the slot and go shoot a bunch of 1 day PRS matches. They will be much more new shooter friendly, and you can figure out what kind of gear and mods you want. Get a few matches under you belt so you at least understand the flow and rythm of a PRS match, there are alot of rules and procedures you need to learn to not be THAT guy.
This is not to say people don't want you to have a good time. Shooters are super supportive and will give you gear and the shirt of their back if you need it. But don't put your squad into that kind of situation. There is a very high chance you will ND with a gas gun at your first match, when you get frazzled on the clock. Getting sent home a few hours into day 1 is going to be more embarrassing than missing a bunch of targets. A 2 day match on the clock is not the time to learn gas gun manipulation.
You can shoot a ton of 1 day matches for what a 2 day match costs overall and I promise you, you will have way more fun and feel more comfortable than at a 2 day match.
Even if you have a complete race gun setup with all the gear, you are going to suck ass your first couple matches. Just know that now. Its a very humbling experience so just go into it knowing last place is a likely scenario. Add in guns not setup to shoot PRS, and its going to be a rough go.
I actually agree with @DeathBeforeDismount for once.
If you had the gear that was up to the task I'd say go for it but you need to make some changes before you do.
First match I shot was a 2 day but my gear was up to the task (mostly). I learned a ton had fun and met some super nice people. I've been going to that match for 3 years now and have made lots of changes to my system. It's not easy to keep your head in it for 2 days.
I wouldn't shoot that gas gun either. If you insist on going drop that Rem in an MDT XRS and make the ammo mag feed. Good dope and a good zero are huge
If you had the gear that was up to the task I'd say go for it but you need to make some changes before you do.
First match I shot was a 2 day but my gear was up to the task (mostly). I learned a ton had fun and met some super nice people. I've been going to that match for 3 years now and have made lots of changes to my system. It's not easy to keep your head in it for 2 days.
I wouldn't shoot that gas gun either. If you insist on going drop that Rem in an MDT XRS and make the ammo mag feed. Good dope and a good zero are huge
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I'm still wrapping my head around the ballistic calculators and the multitude of data points to enter. The BC comes from the manufacturers. Sierra 2275 175g is what I run in the .308 and Hornady 123g SST for the Grendel. I've noticed that the BC is velocity dependent and I am using their recommended BC for my measured velocity. I ran the SST because that's what was available for a log time but the ELD's are very close. Also still trying to under stand the difference in G1 vs G7 drag models but have been using the mfg specified of G1.
The flash hole issue was in the Grendel. 9 fps is sd with standard loads. the screwball shots int he match weren't with a chrono. Small rifle primers and smaller flash holes than the .308. I watched the video above with the rice and I certainly don't discount his findings but the rifle honestly hasn't deviated in behavior other than that one time. The following session i verified zero, dialed in all ranges 200, 300, 400, 500, 600 and 750 on the same targets. 750 was a bit off but I've really only had a small enough target to 600 as the 750 is a steel ram silhouette. There is usually a small round at 750 but its been down when I've had that gun. I also did a 6 moa box run and it went right back to zero. I just haven't been able to duplicate it. The spotter was one of 4 guys to finish stage 1 with 100% hit ratio and spotted most of the match when he wasn't shooting. it certainly wasn't him. Like I say, it may not have been that but I found nothing else.
I hadn't really though about swapping the barrel and action over to a mag fed setup which is a great idea. It currently has a beautiful laminated stock and I really don't want to modify it. I have though about a Ruger Precision or similar for a purpose build bolt gun and even maybe a barreled action and building the rest. Borrowing the action for a little bit is a great idea. I'll mull it over. I'm not too concerned with using a gas gun as I've done more training and competing with a standard AR over a bolt gun so my muscle memory for safety is more established.
Interesting idea. What are you referring to by "already threaded"? I read the KRG install guide and it seems like a drop in. Also, i take it the mags clear longer than 2.800" rounds and the stock is all that needs a clearance notch? I understand what you are saying about showing up unprepared. I definitely don't want to be that guy.
Gotcha. I don't have an answer, but 4 feet @ 300 yards is too far off for it to be velocity or BC. Going from 2700fps to 2200 fps is only 13" POI difference @ 300 yards. G1 and G7 wouldn't make any difference @ 300 yards and I believe the difference @ 700 yards should be less than 0.5 MOA. That said, I don't use G1 BCs nor do I run .308 that slow, so I've never run the numbers. For the 175smk, I just use Litz's G7 number, 0.243
G1 vs G7, see page 2 here
I'm going to throw another suggestion out... run 175gr FGMM factory ammo for your first match
edit - ran your numbers using 0.496 G1, you're not subsonic until 950yds
The only answer to this problem is sending more rounds downrange in a controlled environment (not a match)
G1 vs G7, see page 2 here
I'm going to throw another suggestion out... run 175gr FGMM factory ammo for your first match
edit - ran your numbers using 0.496 G1, you're not subsonic until 950yds
The only answer to this problem is sending more rounds downrange in a controlled environment (not a match)
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Your muzzle, if you have a bare pencil barrel rifle it’s not gonna be fun. You’ll want a silencer or muzzle brake for 200 rounds in 2 days with a 308 or you’ll get beat to a pulp.
The chassis should be drop in as far as action screws
If you've shot local matches, ie PRS matches, you've shot beyond 300 yds, and should know alot more than a typical punter walking into a 2-day for the first time. But most people here seem to be reading your post as you have never shot beyond 300 ?? And so you don't have real "data from precious engagements" at distance ??. Either way, Dope your rifle at min 600 yds would be my $0.02....the its be safe, have fun etc...
The link you sent is interesting. That sheds more light on multiple BC's for different velocity ranges. For my .308 the current calculator (geoballistics) is listing transonic to be at 1111.0 yards (1115.92 fps) for a muzzle velocity of 2590. MV is measured with a magnetospeed barrel mounted chrono. Two data points for reference would be 550yds which calculates at 14.11 moa actual is 14.5. 750 calculates to 23.77 but actual is about 24.5 to 24.75. Under 500 the the error is negligible. I'm using the calculator for a guide and then verifying and then just using excel to print actual dope. I still have some more work to do. Busy next few weekends.
You might consider a clamp on muzzle break then as an alternative and you are committed to the bolt 308 and getting a chassis for it
Custom Clamp-On Muzzle Brake - Witt Machine
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If you are even semi serious about long range shooting then you need to buy a kestral with AB elite.
This gives you access to custom curves which will line up with your muzzle velocity assuming all other inputs are correct, with the correct firing solution.
Yes it's expensive and there are cheaper work around but nothing is easier and faster.
When I start hearing people talk about bc and doping rifles like it's 1995, it's sad becuase those days are long gone.
With a good bullet, AB elite and the correct measurements/atmospheric your elevation should almost never be an issue. And I say almost becuase wind ( AJ) and thermals have a say but it's rare either will push you off plate.
You don't really even need to gather dope anymore just waterline test close to transpnic or as far as you can shoot inside transonic. Trust the model.
This gives you access to custom curves which will line up with your muzzle velocity assuming all other inputs are correct, with the correct firing solution.
Yes it's expensive and there are cheaper work around but nothing is easier and faster.
When I start hearing people talk about bc and doping rifles like it's 1995, it's sad becuase those days are long gone.
With a good bullet, AB elite and the correct measurements/atmospheric your elevation should almost never be an issue. And I say almost becuase wind ( AJ) and thermals have a say but it's rare either will push you off plate.
You don't really even need to gather dope anymore just waterline test close to transpnic or as far as you can shoot inside transonic. Trust the model.
I see a lot of things here that guys left out...
Be sure to bring a chair, do your best to set in it so you can observe all day and not get in the way.
If your helping spot, remain silent as it's very distracting to talk. Depending on if it's a hit or miss it's important to sound off miss or impact.
Do NOT help pick up brass unless it's your own, very important to know this.
Observe as long as you can or talk about PRS shit up to the point it's your turn to shoot, then figure out your DOPE for that stage. This is important as there could be atmospheric changes as well as seeing what others are doing. Your squad won't mind you making the most of your time.
Be sure not to bring a pack, thievery is rampant at matches, if your gear is scattered all over the line it takes longer for someone to steal your kit.
If another shooter in your squad has a wagon or cart feel free to have them haul your stuff, guys are really willing to help out carrying your stuff.
Bring no less than 5-6 different styles of bags so you can figure out what works best on different props.
After shooting your stage, immediately go to the next one to watch and learn from the squad in front of you, they will be happy to help.
While walking down the firing line, be sure NOT to walk behind shooters, a lot if stressed vets with PTSD don't want you walking behind them, make sure you are walking in front of the spotters so they can easily see you and are not alarmed, be courteous to this.
In the event the range goes cold be sure to take that time to look through your scope and ensure your parallax is set and observe mirage, great use of down time.
I can't think of anything right now but this should help you get started to a fun day!
Be sure to bring a chair, do your best to set in it so you can observe all day and not get in the way.
If your helping spot, remain silent as it's very distracting to talk. Depending on if it's a hit or miss it's important to sound off miss or impact.
Do NOT help pick up brass unless it's your own, very important to know this.
Observe as long as you can or talk about PRS shit up to the point it's your turn to shoot, then figure out your DOPE for that stage. This is important as there could be atmospheric changes as well as seeing what others are doing. Your squad won't mind you making the most of your time.
Be sure not to bring a pack, thievery is rampant at matches, if your gear is scattered all over the line it takes longer for someone to steal your kit.
If another shooter in your squad has a wagon or cart feel free to have them haul your stuff, guys are really willing to help out carrying your stuff.
Bring no less than 5-6 different styles of bags so you can figure out what works best on different props.
After shooting your stage, immediately go to the next one to watch and learn from the squad in front of you, they will be happy to help.
While walking down the firing line, be sure NOT to walk behind shooters, a lot if stressed vets with PTSD don't want you walking behind them, make sure you are walking in front of the spotters so they can easily see you and are not alarmed, be courteous to this.
In the event the range goes cold be sure to take that time to look through your scope and ensure your parallax is set and observe mirage, great use of down time.
I can't think of anything right now but this should help you get started to a fun day!
good info man! I know being prepared is super important so I'll be watching/learning every chance I get. Thanks
- Nov 3, 2010
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Nothing say “grow the sport” like guys not welcoming a new shooter and understanding he might not be as fast as them.
The “in crowd” might as well say “don’t make it take longer for me to cruise the prize table dude”
You forgot to ask everyone that comes off the stage what their wind hold was.
Apparently you haven't shot many matches and ain't paying attention, why do you think I was telling him to move ahead to the next stage?? This allows him to get the wind holds and best places to shoot off the props from those guys well before hand....
We all know the guy on a construction site who tells the new guy to go get the “sky hook” out of the sea train. Anyone who’s been on the Internet for less than 3 days or less can easily fall for it. It’s actually my fifth day.
I’m new here and there is a lot of good info to be had if you know know to separate fly shit from pepper. Anyone who doesn’t know there are goons on every forum ever created probably won’t enjoy forums.We all know the guy on a construction site who tells the new guy to go get the “sky hook” out of the sea train. Anyone who’s been on the Internet for less than 3 days or less can easily fall for it. It’s actually my fifth day.
Honestly having thick skin and being able to take a joke is the very best thing, not just at a PRS match but at life in general.
Go there with the mindset to learn and have fun and guaranteed you will.
So my short answer is make sure your squaded with good dudes, have a rifle that's 1moa minimum, good quality bipod and one positional bag and absorb everything around you like a sponge. Also remember that there are many ways to skin a cat so it takes awhile to find out what works for you, I hope you have a great time, 8ts been a really addictive game for me!
We all know the guy on a construction site who tells the new guy to go get the “sky hook” out of the sea train. Anyone who’s been on the Internet for less than 3 days or less can easily fall for it. It’s actually my fifth day.
Just making sure as some might have taken it seriously but being in your 5th day you got it all down so I don’t have to worry about you.
Well, I was trying to come up with a method of deciding which wagon puller looked the friendliest…..Just making sure as some might have taken it seriously but being in your 5th day you got it all down so I don’t have to worry about you.
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