First reloads not going as planned...

[nordicfreak]

Hi,

I'm not sure who else to ask about this but am sure someone out there will have some helpful insight.
I recently purchased a Weatherby Mark V Weathermark LT chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. It shoots great and give me tight groups considering I have only shot for about a year.
However, it is giving me two problems that I can't seem to figure out. I have asked a couple friends that reload and a gunsmith about it with no concrete answers. Everything checks out as far as I can tell... The gunsmith checked firing pin protrusion and said that it was to spec (0.052") and he thought it could be a headspacing issue?

Here is the email that I sent to Weatherby yesterday:
I recently purchased a Weatherby Mark V Weathermark LT. It is a great rifle and I can't wait to hunt with it this fall.
However, after shooting a handful of factory rounds and handloads through the rifle, it has me concerned. There are two main issues:
1. Both factory ammo and handloads (loaded with the starting load from Hornady Manual) are showing high pressure signs. Specifically flattened primers.
2. Every fired case comes out with a distinct repeatable scratch. I have no idea what this is and if it is of concern.
I will attach photos below and would really appreciate some input/advice on the issues I am encountering.

A photo of a very flattened and cratered primer from factory Hornady ammo.

A photo of factory Nosler Ammo showing similar cratering

This is a photo of my hand loads.
Starting grain from the hornady reloading manual.
(Winchester brass (new), Winchester Large Rifle Primer, Hornady Match 140 gr bullet, 36gr of H4350 Powder, Seated 0.025" off the lands)

A photo of the scratches that are on every fired case. On the shoulder and the neck. Same scratch every time.

This is a 38 gr load of the same hand load. It is more flattened still...

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. If there is a better place to share this post, please let me know so that I can it to the right people.

Thanks!

 

[supercorndogs]

Superperfomance primer looks flat, and I would expect it to. The others look fine. If you are reloading you should have the tools to give the difference in measurement between a fired case and and unfired case. This will give you an idea of how much headspace you have. The scratch is probably something the brass is rubbing on during extraction or feeding.

 

[nealm66]

Ya, the factory Hornady that I’ve shot in 6.5 creedmoor and 300 prc was the same. Heard others say the same.

 

[f>b25]

Hardness of primers vary, nothing looks dangerous in the primer pics. If there are no any other pressure signs, then keep shooting. "Scratch" is likely extraction mark, again nothing to worry about. Shoot it

 

[918v]

How much are you pushing the shoulder back when you size the case? .002”? Or whatever the die gives you when it bottoms out?

 

[vinniedelpino]

I'm not qualified to give reloading advice, but is there an imperfection on the bolt face that's creating the scratch and preventing the brass from sitting flush against the bolt face? Just curious.

 

[rustyinbend]

My Hornady factory cartridges in 6.5-CM both shoot "hot" (140-AG and 147-ELDM) and frequently leave extractor swipes and other pressure signs, and even an occasional blown primer. Not a big deal, but keep an eye on your firing pin for signs of wear. I've (sort of) solved this by reloading my own cartridges and controlling the pressure with powder charge changes. I reload .300-WM, .300-PRC, and .338-LM as well, but for some reason, my 6.5-CM is the only one I struggle with pressure management, even at lower velocities. I'm doing some testing now with neck tension ... just got the 21st Century Mandrel Set ... to see if neck tension is a contributor. Next test is a "Neck Tension" ladder test on a charge with light pressure signs to test and see if neck tension is contributing. I'm super-interested to see if less neck tension reduces pressure signs on a load where higher neck tension creates them. For me, reloading is a "journey" ... not a "destination".

 

[918v]

My Hornady factory cartridges in 6.5-CM both shoot "hot" (140-AG and 147-ELDM) and frequently leave extractor swipes and other pressure signs, and even an occasional blown primer. Not a big deal, but keep an eye on your firing pin for signs of wear. I've (sort of) solved this by reloading my own cartridges and controlling the pressure with powder charge changes. I reload .300-WM, .300-PRC, and .338-LM as well, but for some reason, my 6.5-CM is the only one I struggle with pressure management, even at lower velocities. I'm doing some testing now with neck tension ... just got the 21st Century Mandrel Set ... to see if neck tension is a contributor. Next test is a "Neck Tension" ladder test on a charge with light pressure signs to test and see if neck tension is contributing. I'm super-interested to see if less neck tension reduces pressure signs on a load where higher neck tension creates them. For me, reloading is a "journey" ... not a "destination".

Rusty, noooooooo

 

[Bradv86]

I have not shot much superformance, but the little I have shot also had flat primers. I haven't had much luck with that in the past.

The scratches are probably feeding / extraction like supercorndogs said. You could feed one half way in from the internal magazine and extract it to know if it is happening during feeding, and not a burr in the neck/shoulder of your chamber. If you identify the source and feel comfortable, you could smooth/polish the feed lips to prevent it.

Pressure signs - I don't see much on the case head. The Win brass reload has some sort of swipe, but the factory ones do not show much of anything to me. Any sticky extraction / bolt lift? Your reloaded primer still has some radius on it and I would say that looks fine. The bit of cratering could be that the factory rifle has a bit excess clearance between the firing pin and firing pin bore. I think you are OK. You could back up your loads with some chrono data to see how your powder charges vs speed are comparing to book references. Good move starting low and keeping an eye on things, you are on the right track here.

 

[KnowNothing256]

I had issues with an older Bergara B14 HMR cratering primers as well, they had a known issue with too much clearance around the firing pin as @Bradv86 mentioned. There were several fixes available, I went with the fastest which was to buy an upgraded bolt. Newer B14s have fixed this problem.

You might Google around and see if this is a known issue for your rifle as well. If so, there are a couple outfits out there that will bush the bolt face firing pin hold to fix it.

 

[nordicfreak]

Superperfomance primer looks flat, and I would expect it to. The others look fine. If you are reloading you should have the tools to give the difference in measurement between a fired case and and unfired case. This will give you an idea of how much headspace you have. The scratch is probably something the brass is rubbing on during extraction or feeding.

Why would you expect the Superperformance primer to look flat? Just curious...
Using my Hornady headspace comparator and calipers, it looks like the difference in headspace is 0.005". I assume that fine?
All in all, do you see anything concerning about the photos I posted?

 

[supercorndogs]

Because superperfomance is hot, and usually has flat primers.

 

[nordicfreak]

Update: I forgot to include a photo of a case that had a 38 Gr charge. Right in the middle of the (36-40gr load data)
It was the only one out of 15 or so rounds that had a small crack in the case neck...
Thoughts?

 

[nordicfreak]

How much are you pushing the shoulder back when you size the case? .002”? Or whatever the die gives you when it bottoms out?

This was new brass that I full length sized and trimmed to the recommended trim length. In future reloads, I will shoot for a full length resize with 0.002" shoulder bump.

 

[nordicfreak]

I'm not qualified to give reloading advice, but is there an imperfection on the bolt face that's creating the scratch and preventing the brass from sitting flush against the bolt face? Just curious.

The bolt face looks flat too me with no imperfections...

 

[supercorndogs]

Update: I forgot to include a photo of a case that had a 38 Gr charge. Right in the middle of the (36-40gr load data)
It was the only one out of 15 or so rounds that had a small crack in the case neck...
Thoughts?
View attachment 7642870

When necks crack you throw the case away.

 

[nordicfreak]

I have not shot much superformance, but the little I have shot also had flat primers. I haven't had much luck with that in the past.

The scratches are probably feeding / extraction like supercorndogs said. You could feed one half way in from the internal magazine and extract it to know if it is happening during feeding, and not a burr in the neck/shoulder of your chamber. If you identify the source and feel comfortable, you could smooth/polish the feed lips to prevent it.

Pressure signs - I don't see much on the case head. The Win brass reload has some sort of swipe, but the factory ones do not show much of anything to me. Any sticky extraction / bolt lift? Your reloaded primer still has some radius on it and I would say that looks fine. The bit of cratering could be that the factory rifle has a bit excess clearance between the firing pin and firing pin bore. I think you are OK. You could back up your loads with some chrono data to see how your powder charges vs speed are comparing to book references. Good move starting low and keeping an eye on things, you are on the right track here.

Thanks for the in depth reply!
All of the cartridges come out with the scratch whether I load them in one by one or push them down into the internal magazine and feed them that way. Because of that, I'm thinking it must be a burr in the chamber of the rifle. Would you agree? If so, what do you think can or should be done about it? if anything?

 

[pabrousseau]

I see no reason to think there is a head space problem. Radial scratch could be a burr on the edge of the ejector plunger hole, nothing to worry about. Flat primers don't bother me and I don't see brass flow into the ejector hole .

 

[918v]

This was new brass that I full length sized and trimmed to the recommended trim length. In future reloads, I will shoot for a full length resize with 0.002" shoulder bump.

That explains the flat primers. In the future don’t full length resize new brass without knowing your chamber dimensions first.

 

[Bradv86]

Thanks for the in depth reply!
All of the cartridges come out with the scratch whether I load them in one by one or push them down into the internal magazine and feed them that way. Because of that, I'm thinking it must be a burr in the chamber of the rifle. Would you agree? If so, what do you think can or should be done about it? if anything?

If you are single feeding and completely bypassing the magazine and still get the same exact scratch, then yes I would say there is probably something in the chamber causing it. If you had a borescope you could have a peek in there and see what you can find. Whether it bothers you enough to do something about it or not is your call.

The split neck is not surprising to me. I have a piece of 0x fired Winchester .300WM brass right here in front of me with the start of a split neck.. Yes, factory new, unfired brass. After running a mandrel through I found the defect on it and just used it as a test piece for measurement purposes. I would blame the brass quality for that particular one.

 

[DCAN]

I've had scratched cases a couple times. Always tracked it down to a burr in the action. It's surprising how small a burr can be and still scratch a case.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Your scratch is likely from a burr in the chamber caused by the reamer. I had it happen to me on a rifle last year. Don’t let people tell you you can polish it out. Chances are you need to have another barrel cut.

 

[Baron23]

Your scratch is likely from a burr in the chamber caused by the reamer. I had it happen to me on a rifle last year. Don’t let people tell you you can polish it out. Chances are you need to have another barrel cut.

This ^^ was my thought as the scratch is only from neck to shoulder.
Same spot every time makes me think of a burr or imperfection in far end of the chamber. Perhaps only scoring the case on the way out after firing and expansion.

 

[918v]

Why can’t it be from a burr in the action?

 

[Bradv86]

Why can’t it be from a burr in the action?

It could be. The reason I wanted to know if the scratch appeared from mag fed when only pushed in half way was to prove wether it occurred during the feeding process or not.

 

[lightman]

I really don't see enough primer flatting to bother me. The craters are probably from a sloppy firing pin fit. The scratch would bother me. I would run a patch into the chamber and twirl it around and see if anything snags it. You may even be able to see into the chamber with a light. A bore scope would be nice to have right about now! I would also call Weatherby and see what they say. And I might be tempted to put a piece of wet 1200 grit emory cloth on a split patch holder and run it in and out a few times with a drill.

 

[f>b25]

Going in and out of battery will rotate brass, but the witness mark, from the pic, is linear. Burr would not leave that particular single straight line. Remove the ejector spring and close the bolt on a piece of brass, who thinks the witness mark will go away? The ejector spring is pushing the brass into one side of the chamber coming out of battery. A little chamfer after reaming would have solved the cosmetic nothing. shoot it. Or maybe something else?

 

[nordicfreak]

**Update**

So I spent some time playing with some fired cases to see if I could cycle them without getting scratches.
After a while, I tried chambering a fired case and drawing it out slowly while pushing on it from the side so that the ejector could not cam it up against the chamber lugs or side of the action.
That did it, no more scratches!
As far as I can tell, its happening when the ejector pin pushes the case up against the chamber lugs and side of the action right before it is thrown out of the action by the ejector.

What do you guys think? I can feel the scratches with my nail but they aren't too bad. Should I just forget about it?
Additionally, how would I polish or deburr the sharp edge that the case is riding against during extraction?
Another thought I had was to possibly get an ejector spring that wasn't as strong so that it wouldn't push the brass so hard against the action lugs during extraction...

Thanks!

 

[f>b25]

If you would rather not disassemble the bolt, insert a cleaning rod, from the muzzle, and seat brass by hand. Tap out with rod and post a pic of the witness mark.

 

[nordicfreak]

If you would rather not disassemble the bolt, insert a cleaning rod, from the muzzle, and seat brass by hand. Tap out with rod and post a pic of the witness mark.

That's the thing, if I did all that, I wouldn't get a scratch at all. It only happens when the brass is pulled out by the extractor and pushed against the lugs in the chamber...

 

[Bradv86]

You've got a few options

1. Contact Weatherby and see if they will fix it. They may consider this to be a complete non-issue however.
2. Have a gunsmith lightly polish the offending sharp edges of the lugs.
3. Polish the sharp edges yourself.
4. Live with it.

I would not change the ejector spring.

 

[OREGUN]

The scratch is because the brass is smacking the inside of the action as it comes out of the chamber. You are pulling it out of the chamber, and into a bigger space, while under spring pressure. It’s nothing. Ignore it entirely.

Some factory ammo is loaded hot…and will show pressure signs. If it’s blowing primers, stop shooting it. If you have heavy bolt lift, stop shooting it. If it’s nothing more than the flat primers you showed, it’s probably ok. Keep in mind that an increase in outside temp to “very hot” might cause you trouble. Chambering a wet cartridge (hunting in snow or rain?) might also lead to trouble.

If the space around the firing pin is a bit large (the hole is big) you could get “cratering” at any pressure…see any R700 made in the last 30 years. Get the firing pin bushed if bothers you. Or do nothing. Cratering is an unreliable sign of over pressure.

if your headspace is on the long end of the spec, you might solve some of the flattening by only sizing enough to make it possible to chamber a fired case….this is the “shoulder bump” everyone carries on about. That will decrease the space that the chambered round has to expand, gain a little momentum, and then smack the primer into the bolt face (simplified but essentially what’s happening) and might decrease some of the flattening you are seeing.

Your hand loads look fine to me. The super performance looks pretty flat but their cases could be sized extra small, they could be using a really soft primer, they are advertising “super” performance so they are loading them hot for maximum velocity, your gun (barrel) might just be picky about that combo of powder and bullet.

I wouldn’t stop shooting the box of SP that you have unless you get the troubles listed above but I wouldn’t count on that being your go-to cartridge just for peace of mind.

Don’t blow your face off.

 

[Lew Hodge]

I think OREGUN is on the right track. It's hard to measure headspace in a bolt gun. Several case manufacturers make short cases, Lapua being one, and it drives reloaders crazy. If you full length resize a short case, (autoloaders), all the way into the die, you'll get case head separation very soon and a very short case life. I haven't had much experience with Hornady cases, but I've read some nasty reviews about excessive softness etc., among other things. The first thing you should do is determine where the case is against SAAMI specs. if it is short, below SAAMI minimum, you're going to experience excessive headspace and your case face and primer will show it. In a bolt gun, I feel that a once fired case has blown the shoulder forward to the point where you are pretty assured of a nice headspace of a mil or two and that's good. I would compare it to unfired cases with a Wilson case gauge and dial indicator with adapter (available from Mike Bellm's T/C website). Then you'll know how much the case has stretched. When you resize the next time, or shoulder bump, you want to bring the case back to where it was on the gauge after the first firing, no shorter. You can hold off on full entry to the die with feeler gauges between the shellholder and the die. On a T/C Contender, .006" of extra headspace caused me headspace hell, extruded primers, to the point you couldn't open the gun, without slamming it against your knee, primers with the center blown out, all with factory loads. BTW all this assumes that you can close the bolt OK on a once fired case.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

You've got a few options

2. Have a gunsmith lightly polish the offending sharp edges of the lugs.
3. Polish the sharp edges yourself.
I

^^^ This or this.

Sirhr

 

[Rick7353]

Hi,

I'm not sure who else to ask about this but am sure someone out there will have some helpful insight.
I recently purchased a Weatherby Mark V Weathermark LT chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor. It shoots great and give me tight groups considering I have only shot for about a year.
However, it is giving me two problems that I can't seem to figure out. I have asked a couple friends that reload and a gunsmith about it with no concrete answers. Everything checks out as far as I can tell... The gunsmith checked firing pin protrusion and said that it was to spec (0.052") and he thought it could be a headspacing issue?

Here is the email that I sent to Weatherby yesterday:
I recently purchased a Weatherby Mark V Weathermark LT. It is a great rifle and I can't wait to hunt with it this fall.
However, after shooting a handful of factory rounds and handloads through the rifle, it has me concerned. There are two main issues:
1. Both factory ammo and handloads (loaded with the starting load from Hornady Manual) are showing high pressure signs. Specifically flattened primers.
2. Every fired case comes out with a distinct repeatable scratch. I have no idea what this is and if it is of concern.
I will attach photos below and would really appreciate some input/advice on the issues I am encountering.

View attachment 7642724
A photo of a very flattened and cratered primer from factory Hornady ammo.
View attachment 7642725
A photo of factory Nosler Ammo showing similar cratering
View attachment 7642727
This is a photo of my hand loads.
Starting grain from the hornady reloading manual.
(Winchester brass (new), Winchester Large Rifle Primer, Hornady Match 140 gr bullet, 36gr of H4350 Powder, Seated 0.025" off the lands)
View attachment 7642729
A photo of the scratches that are on every fired case. On the shoulder and the neck. Same scratch every time.
View attachment 7642730
This is a 38 gr load of the same hand load. It is more flattened still...

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated. If there is a better place to share this post, please let me know so that I can it to the right people.

Thanks!

Hornady Superformance is a very stout factory load and primers look typical for 6.5 creedmoor. The scratch is most likely die to when the barrel was chambered. Did you follow the shoot one clean for the first 5 shots. You may have a slight butt which should go away with shooting a few more rounds.

 

[OREGUN]

I think that suggesting it’s a burr in the chamber is nuts. If there is a protrusion in the chamber big enough to cause that scratch, you have other problems. If you can’t believe this, then remove your firing pin and your ejector and chamber a round. I guarantee you, when you pull that round out you will not have that scratch on your case. Hell, if you really don’t believe me leave your firing pin in but remove the ejector. Shoot one, extract….no mark. I’ll send you a case of your favorite beer if I’m wrong.

 

[Mac 1]

Update: I forgot to include a photo of a case that had a 38 Gr charge. Right in the middle of the (36-40gr load data)
It was the only one out of 15 or so rounds that had a small crack in the case neck...
Thoughts?
View attachment 7642870

Anneal

 

[TheNatural21]

It looks like I'm a little late to the party and your questions have been answered already. I'll just confirm a couple things since I'm here.

That primer on the Hornady factory load looks "normal" for the round. I see lots of factory Hornady 6.5CM once fired brass from different rifles that looks the same. Personally I don't like the looks of the flat primers so I don't shoot that ammo, but it doesn't indicate anything wrong with your rifle.

The cratering is probably just loose tolerance on the firing pin hole. You can get it bushed by a gunsmith if you want. I'm not sure that you need to.

The scratched brass is definitely a burr somewhere, and it sounds like you already found it. Just rub some fine emery cloth on it if it's where you said you felt it with your fingernail. It shouldn't take too much to get the scratched brass to stop.

You mentioned sizing headspace 0.005" smaller than your fired cases with a plan to switch to 0.002" now that you are aware of it. Good plan. Brass will last longer that way among some other benefits. I size a bit more (0.004") for ammo that might be used in the field with some dirt or rain or snow on it to make sure I wont have feeding issues (hunting ammo) or for use in a semi, but that's not needed for a bolt gun at a clean range. I'm not even sure if it's needed for the conditions I mentioned or if it's just a habit I picked up somewhere.