Fitting a rifle to the shooter

[Eaglearcher20]

I want to become a more accurate shooter and want to start with getting my rifle set up to fit me the best I can. I'm curious if there is a proper way to tell if maybe i'm sitting too close and should extend my butt pad to have less bend in my elbow, or if my head is too canted and i should lower the cheek rest. Coming from shooting exclusively basic wood stock hunting rifles with no adjustment I would like to take advantage of the ergonomic adjustments in a chassis rifle.

 

[Boltyboi]

I've always just mounted the scope, set the cheek rest to the proper height, adjusted the stock length to be comfortable, then set the scope for eye relief.

 

[captainmorgan460]

Starting point. I like the buttstock length slightly shorter than what fits into the bend of the elbow. (If somebody has a better way for that let me know.)

Then get into prone/kneeling/standing and set the eye relief. Check max and min elevation. Kind of have to set the cheek riser at the same time. One thing ive found is when setting up the stock rear end if I stay figuring out an adjustment too long I move my shoulders to adapt to it without realizing and it is an incorrect adjustment.

On the cheek rest, two best things Ive heard are to not look through your eyebrows. And to find a natural POA, pretend to take a nap on the cheek piece, open your eye, and you should be perfectly on the scope.

 

[C.R. Adams]

I don't have much to add, but the moment you get it right, it's like the stars align and the heavens open up. you'll know it.

Tricks: For the cheek piece height, I place washers on the vertical adjustment posts of my KRG as i adjust the cheek piece in height. This allows me a way to easily repeat the exact height when i remove the cheek piece for cleaning. My Manners stock has a small clip that provides a similar reference point allowing easily returning the correct height


for me, a good place to begin is to have the top of the cheek piece level with the top of the butt pad and add washers as needed until I achieve the right height..

 

[Dthomas3523]

Set up the rifle without optic. Then get the correct ring height (or as close as possible) to get the optic in front of your eye.

Anytime you mount optic first, you are setting the shooter up to the optic/rifle, and not the rifle/optic to the shooter.

 

[Jack Master]

too close and should extend my butt pad to have less bend in my elbow

The proper length of pull is all about being able to efficiently run the rifle (not the optic) correctly in a relaxed un-muscle-ed manor.
So we have all seen the crook of the elbow to the trigger finger measurement. This is a good starting point. Now we need to get into the prone shooting position (without the scope on the rifle) and start to dry fire. We are looking at 3 things to refine the length of pull.
1. Placement of the cheek on the cheek riser. We need to make sure we are getting to a comfortable place on the riser. Making sure our face is not hanging off the front or the back is all we are looking for here.
2. Crook/kink in the firing hand wrist. If the wrist is kinked to much we start to loose dexterity in our fingers, especially our trigger finger. Rolling you thumb to the hand side (rather than wrapping it around the stock or grip) can help this dexterity too. We are looking for easy movement of the fingers and a relaxed, un-muscled wrist position. If our wrist starts to hurt after a few minutes because we are having to wrench it back to get a good grip means our LOP is too short and may need extended.
3. Running the bolt. Running the bolt is, for me, is the true test of length of pull. We want to be able to run the bolt without fully lifting our elbow off the ground. Some elbow movement is okay but having to lift our elbow to eye level to get enough leverage on the bolt lift means our LOP is too long and needs shortened.
Finding the sweet spot in these 3 is the key to length of pull.

Once 1,2 and 3 are comfortable; now mount your scope and set the eye relief to match your position Do not make your body get to the scope, bring the scope to you.

or if my head is too canted and i should lower the cheek rest

Head cant and cheek rest height have very little in common. (some but little)
Cheek rest height has 2 factors. 1. The height of the scope over bore and 2. what type of cheek weld you y have/want (chin, mid cheek, cheek bone) Cheek rest height is all about getting proper eye alignment behind the scope to have proper sight picture.
Head cant comes from the height of the rifle system from the ground and your body type. In general, the lower you put your rifle to the ground the more your head will role over. The higher you put the rifle will move you head more vertical. I have a bigger frame and bigger body type (starting my diet "next week") so I prefer a higher rifle position. This puts my head in a near vertical position and my body is supported up on my elbows. I have a tall bipod position and tall-ish rear bag to get to this position. If your rifle is too low your head position and neck tension will surly tell you in a hurry. Listen to your neck the most, if its hurting after being in the prone position for 15-20 minutes, you are too low.

Now, all these items have to come together. (LOP 1-2-3, Cheek height, rifle Height) Changing our rifle height from the ground can change how we can run the bolt because our body and body support is in a different position. This can also change our cheek weld position front to back. Changing our cheek weld type can effect your rifle height and cheek riser height. This will take some time to iron out as you start shooting more and more. Make minor tweaks and adjustments as you go. Once you think your are comfortable with your setup change something slightly like adding or shortening LOP just a bit and see if you like it better. Raise and lower the bipod height to get a feel for what is most comfortable for you.

Ready, set, go. Good Luck.

 

[Eaglearcher20]

The proper length of pull is all about being able to efficiently run the rifle (not the optic) correctly in a relaxed un-muscle-ed manor.
So we have all seen the crook of the elbow to the trigger finger measurement. This is a good starting point. Now we need to get into the prone shooting position (without the scope on the rifle) and start to dry fire. We are looking at 3 things to refine the length of pull.
1. Placement of the cheek on the cheek riser. We need to make sure we are getting to a comfortable place on the riser. Making sure our face is not hanging off the front or the back is all we are looking for here.
2. Crook/kink in the firing hand wrist. If the wrist is kinked to much we start to loose dexterity in our fingers, especially our trigger finger. Rolling you thumb to the hand side (rather than wrapping it around the stock or grip) can help this dexterity too. We are looking for easy movement of the fingers and a relaxed, un-muscled wrist position. If our wrist starts to hurt after a few minutes because we are having to wrench it back to get a good grip means our LOP is too short and may need extended.
3. Running the bolt. Running the bolt is, for me, is the true test of length of pull. We want to be able to run the bolt without fully lifting our elbow off the ground. Some elbow movement is okay but having to lift our elbow to eye level to get enough leverage on the bolt lift means our LOP is too long and needs shortened.
Finding the sweet spot in these 3 is the key to length of pull.

Once 1,2 and 3 are comfortable; now mount your scope and set the eye relief to match your position Do not make your body get to the scope, bring the scope to you.


Head cant and cheek rest height have very little in common. (some but little)
Cheek rest height has 2 factors. 1. The height of the scope over bore and 2. what type of cheek weld you y have/want (chin, mid cheek, cheek bone) Cheek rest height is all about getting proper eye alignment behind the scope to have proper sight picture.
Head cant comes from the height of the rifle system from the ground and your body type. In general, the lower you put your rifle to the ground the more your head will role over. The higher you put the rifle will move you head more vertical. I have a bigger frame and bigger body type (starting my diet "next week") so I prefer a higher rifle position. This puts my head in a near vertical position and my body is supported up on my elbows. I have a tall bipod position and tall-ish rear bag to get to this position. If your rifle is too low your head position and neck tension will surly tell you in a hurry. Listen to your neck the most, if its hurting after being in the prone position for 15-20 minutes, you are too low.

Now, all these items have to come together. (LOP 1-2-3, Cheek height, rifle Height) Changing our rifle height from the ground can change how we can run the bolt because our body and body support is in a different position. This can also change our cheek weld position front to back. Changing our cheek weld type can effect your rifle height and cheek riser height. This will take some time to iron out as you start shooting more and more. Make minor tweaks and adjustments as you go. Once you think your are comfortable with your setup change something slightly like adding or shortening LOP just a bit and see if you like it better. Raise and lower the bipod height to get a feel for what is most comfortable for you.

Ready, set, go. Good Luck.

This is what i was looking for. Thank you for the detailed instructions.

 

[hereinaz]

This is what i was looking for. Thank you for the detailed instructions.

That is pretty solid information. I tend to agree with all of it. Most of the rifle fitment can be done at home, and do it over days. You'll find small tweaks you can keep making if you play with it without the distraction of actually shooting.

What he says about height off the ground can make a huge difference. Don't "get as low as you can". Get as low as you can comfortably. Get up on your elbows high enough that your neck is neutral as possible, but not so far off your elbows that all your weight is on them. I think that there is value in finding that first. It is a function of bipod height and rear bag height. Your body type will drive a lot of that.

Also, know that if you set up a gun for prone, the eye relief and "length of pull" changes if your body changes position to upright while shooting off a barricade. Your length of pull shortens and the scope comes back the more you go upright. It happens because when you lay down, your head is further forward than your shoulder for eye relief. And, your shoulder is further back in relation to the trigger for length of pull. You can balance between the two so that prone you are at one extreme for eye relief and upright you are at the other extreme, but your head remains neutral. This means that you'll likely have a perfectly clear picture, but when upright, you'll see a little more ring around the outside of the sight picture. LOP you can pick one, put in the middle or use an adjustable butt stock. I would rather have it a little short in prone than long if I am upright. When it comes to LOP, also look at hand placement, wrist angle, trigger finger at 90 degrees. I think tweaking LOP within what is comfortable for stretching your arm gets into making sure you are set up so your finger marries the trigger perfectly, comfortably, and repeatedly. That is part of what you are looking for with the wrist strain he mentioned.

For my hunting rifles, I set up to shoot sitting off a tripod, because I rarely shoot prone. My match rifle, same. When I get an ELR type boomer, it will be set up prone.

As for canting your head, bring your butt as close to your neck as you can, IMO. This also affects LOP and eye relief some. If you run it right on your collar bone, then your head will be more upright and the rifle centered for recoil management. At least, that is what I do and I got it from Phil Velayo. Obviously, people are successful doing it "their way" out in the shoulder pocket. But, one thing you will find is that what "feels natural" is just what you've been doing and anything else feels awkward. Get comfortable based on the principles and order he expressed and ignore it if it feels "unatural" at first. Since revising my position based on Frank's fundamentals, and others, "the right way" the comfortable way now feels natural and I have so much more control over my rifle. I can relax right into a narrower wobble zone, or just get the rifle dead quiet in a prone position.

Ultimately, your comfort in relaxed position is the absolute greatest factor. If you have muscle tension, that will show in your groups and ability to manage recoil. That is why I like to have the rifle centered as much as possible and my body square and inline with the rifle. Following the other advice will help tremendously.

And, like he said, you'll likely make one big change, and then some minor tweaks as you work through it. The biggest thing will likely be eye relief and where and how you place your head.

 

[...]

honestly mate its whatever you find comfortable....everyones body is slightly different, so what might work for one dude could be terrible for another guy.

the main things you need to set on a rifle are LOP and cheek/ scope height......and what you want is for when you close your eyes and shoulder your rifle, you arent straining, you can open your eyes and you are looking right down your scope.

scope height is going to drive your cheek height......typically you want your scope as low as possible, while still allowing clearance between the objective end and the barrel.....if you have an adjustable cheek rest, you can adjust that till you are looking down the scope clearly.....if not, youll have to build up a cheek rest with foam mat and duct tape.

LOP is personal, a lot of people use the crick of the elbow to finger tip measurement.......i like to hold my fists up like im about to throw a punch, i take the distance from my dominant hand to my shoulder....

 

[Eaglearcher20]

Thanks again for all the constructive advise. This is why i joined the Hide.

 

[Steel head]

...typically you want your scope as low as possible, while still allowing clearance between the objective end and the barrel.....

What benefit does this bring?

 

[Dthomas3523]

What benefit does this bring?

The opposite is true nowadays for the most part. You get a more upright head position with higher rings.

Which is why picking an arbitrary scope height and then adjust you/the rifle to that height is outdated.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Cheek height should drive scope height. Not scope height driving cheek height (as long as the optic isn’t higher than the cheek can accomplish with reasonable modifications).

 

[Steel head]

The opposite is true nowadays for the most part. You get a more upright head position with higher rings.

Which is why picking an arbitrary scope height and then adjust you/the rifle to that height is outdated.

You ruined my devious plans!

You also get the bore line intersection closer to the contact point of the buttpad and that makes a huge difference in stability in recoil.

 

[...]

The opposite is true nowadays for the most part. You get a more upright head position with higher rings.

Which is why picking an arbitrary scope height and then adjust you/the rifle to that height is outdated.

i have yet to find a scope/ stock combo, that does not require the cheek to be raised or shims, when scopes are mounted as low as possible.

and on an adjustable chassis, its really not an issue.

you gain nothing by having a high scope over bore

 

[Steel head]

i have yet to find a scope/ stock combo, that does not require the cheek to be raised or shims, when scopes are mounted as low as possible.

and on an adjustable chassis, its really not an issue.

you gain nothing by having a high scope over bore

 

[...]

View attachment 7355763

do you actually have something intelligent to contribute?

 

[Steel head]

do you actually have something intelligent to contribute?

Already did

you may question my intelligence just as I question your knowledge of setting up a rifle for optimal performance.

 

[want2learn]

I've been thinking a lot about these factors and absolutely agree that rifle fit is incredibly important for comfort, repeatability, endurance, stability and recoil accommodation.

Owning the shotgun (making it fit you) made such a significant difference in Trap shooting and i'm certain it must be so in PRS. I spent a lot of time working on shotgun fit and to this day the gun fits me like a glove...perfect, balanced and comfortable.

As with all guidelines, they are not dogmatic.....variables must be considered. The length of one's neck, forearm length, chest girth, facial contour and bony structural dimensions etc. must certainly play a role.

With current ballistic calculations, the height of the scope in relation to that of the barrel bore can well be accounted for and as such it's relative position can likely play a secondary role in optimal rifle fit. That doesn't mean that it's value in optimizing fit should be overlooked. It can and should play a pertinant role as a variable in further accommodating body proportions and physical ability.

It would seem easy to envision that an individual with a thicker chest, shorter neck and taller facial skeleton might have to play not only with length of pull but also adjust recoil pad height, cant as well as adjusting comb height to secure a suitable fit and visual accommodation.

In order of preference i would advocate adjusting LOP and recoil pad position early on in the fitting process, followed by comb height and then scope ring height.....accepting that some further adjustments of each variable might well be required as one further optimzes fit (given each modification may well affect precedent changes).

I would similarly imagine that maintaining a neutral alignment of face and neck to comb would prove a critical determinant in optimizing fit and yet one so often observes individuals twisting or canting their neck in an effort to accommodate an ill fitting rifle and scope platform..... it surprises me that comb adjustments on many long range rifles do not more easily facilitate medial and lateral translations.

 

[Steel head]

I've been thinking a lot about these factors and absolutely agree that rifle fit is incredibly important for comfort, repeatability, endurance, stability and recoil accommodation.

Owning the shotgun (making it fit you) made such a significant difference in Trap shooting and i'm certain it must be so in PRS. I spent a lot of time working on shotgun fit and to this day it fits me like a glove...perfect, balanced and comfortable.

As with all guidelines, they are not dogmatic.....variables must be considered. The length of one's neck, forearm length, chest girth, facial contour and bony structural dimensions etc. must certainly play a role.

With current ballistic calculations, the height of the scope in relation to that of the barrel bore can well be accounted for and as such it's relative position can likely play a secondary role in optimal rifle fit. That doesn't mean that it's value in optimizing fit should be overlooked. It can certainly play a role as a pertinent variable in further accommodating body proportions and physical ability.

It would seem easy to envision that an individual with a thicker chest, shorter neck and taller facial skeleton might have to play not only with length of pull but also adjust recoil pad height, cant as well as adjusting comb height to secure a suitable fit and visual accommodation.

In order of preference i would probably advocate adjusting LOP and recoil pad position early on in the fitting process, followed by comb height and then scope ring height.....accepting that some further adjustments of each variable might well be required as one further optimzes fit (given each modification may well affect precedent changes).

I would imagine that maintaining a neutral alignment of face and neck to comb would be a critical determinant in optimizing fit and yet i so often observe individuals twisting or can't their neck in an effort to accommodate the ill fitting rifle and scope..... it surprises me that comb adjustments on many long range rifles do not more commonly facilitate medial and lateral translations.

Trap and skeet are prime examples of fit, the difference is they are a lot more dynamic.

They also have to make compromises because of the sight line that rifles with optics don’t.

 

[Dthomas3523]

i have yet to find a scope/ stock combo, that does not require the cheek to be raised or shims, when scopes are mounted as low as possible.

and on an adjustable chassis, its really not an issue.

you gain nothing by having a high scope over bore

Depends on the shooter.

Advising a blanket “keep the optic as low as possible” is out dated and no longer the norm. Many shooters gain quite a bit from higher mounted optics.

Just because you raised the comb doesn’t mean you achieved the optimal setup for the shooter. Your method has the shooter adjusting to the optic. This is counterproductive. You adjust the system to the shooter and the optic height falls where it falls. Not as low as possible and then set the shooter up to the optic.

 

[seanh]

Getting a coach very well may help. Having somebody there to help get you in position will go a long way to being properly fit. What may take you several trips to the range and countless hours at home, a qualified coach with hands on assistance may be able to fix those problems in a day.

Results-based testing will generally tell you where you need to be with your setup/fit