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FL Size Then Neck Size
- Thread starter sig2009
- Start date
I do it on one of my .260 loads because the brass to chamber fit needs it and I don't have S type dies for it. And yes I do it for consistent neck tension.
I'm a bit confused on this concept and why you would do it. What does it gain you to neck size when you are already full length sizing which would include the neck being properly sized. Wouldn't that just be sizing the neck twice, working the brass more, but with the same resulting neck dimensions when you're done?. What dies are you doing this with?
On some brass where I need to reduce the neck diameter by more than .005 I size the neck in two steps to reduce runout. Use the neck die first then the FL sizing die.
But I'm assuming that's more about a two bushing step rather than a specifically about neck + full length sizing. You could accomplish the same thing with just a full length die and swapping bushings (though perhaps that's less convenient).
That is correct and could swap bushings in the die but just not as convenient. Other than reducing the neck diameter in steps see no need to size the neck twice.
If you take a case and FL size it without the expander assembly the die will funnel the neck, meaning the case mouth will be larger in diameter than the neck. This is due to how brass moves through a constriction.
If you neck size first with a Lee collet neck die the neck does not get funneled because it is already close to the diameter of the neck inside the die. For example, take a Win 308 case and run it through a standard FL die. The case mouth will be .329" and the neck .327". But if you neck size first the neck will come out a consistent .329" from case mouth to the shoulder. This reduces runout and improves seating pressure consistency.
This gets even even funner when you start playing with different rod diameters in the Lee collet neck die and custom honed necks in the FL die. I select a rod diameter for the Lee collet neck die that produces a neck OD .001" over what my FL die is honed to. That way the FL die only supports the neck while the body is getting sized.
In the Win case example, the standard FL die has a .328" neck. My fired case has a .346" neck. My Lee collet neck die with a .304" rod produces a .329" neck OD. My standard FL die produces a .329" neck OD (cuz brass springs back .001"). My .306something" expander mandrel then opens up the neck to .330" or so and I end up with .002" of neck tension with brass springback in the direction of the bullet.
With thicker brass I use .334" and .335" honed FL necks and .305" and .306" Lee rods. The goal is to replicate what's going on with the Win case in the standard FL die, meaning the FL die is taking the neck .004" or less under loaded neck diameter prior to the expander mandrel setting the neck tension.
Why do do I do all of this? Seems stupid.
It does seem excessive until you factor in annealing which makes bullet seating a pain in the ass. The above process makes bullet seating butter smooth. It is worth the extra effort.
For a couple of calibers I have been experimenting with Lee Collet neck dies. For those I use a Redding body die for FL sizing and then follow up with the collet die.
I do not subscribe to the practice of removing the expander ball from any FL die. I view the expander ball as a necessary evil and to overcome the "drag" normally associated with using them I dip the necks into Redding Dry Lube. It works great and I feel has taken out some of the flyers I was getting.
As avid reloaders we all tend to have "rituals" that we think are adding that last little bit of winning accuracy to our loading process. I think it's kinda like having that "lucky shirt". It may do no good but it makes you feel better and that's a good reason to do it.
I do not subscribe to the practice of removing the expander ball from any FL die. I view the expander ball as a necessary evil and to overcome the "drag" normally associated with using them I dip the necks into Redding Dry Lube. It works great and I feel has taken out some of the flyers I was getting.
As avid reloaders we all tend to have "rituals" that we think are adding that last little bit of winning accuracy to our loading process. I think it's kinda like having that "lucky shirt". It may do no good but it makes you feel better and that's a good reason to do it.
In my case it happens to be that my FL sizing die is not a bushing type and this particular brass has thin necks. This results in my having to neck size to achieve 0.002" neck tension. When using the same dies on other brands of brass, I do not need to do this and just use the expander ball to get consistent neck ID and therefore consistent neck tension.
Okay, those processes make sense and are more focused than just a simple "Full length size then neck size for consistent neck tension" recommendation that might confuse a new reloader and that might not be a good idea. The Lee Collet die is also a different animal than a typical neck sizing die so it's good to point out that's what you're using.
I use body die which will size the whole brass without the neck area. Then I run the brass with lee collet die.
this combo result the least neck and shoulder runout under .002
FL die kind of overwork the neck area, need annealing after 2 fire for me.
this combo result the least neck and shoulder runout under .002
FL die kind of overwork the neck area, need annealing after 2 fire for me.
I don't know about this monkey business. Sounds like a complete waste of time. If BR shooters can set world records by simple one-step sizing, why does a "steel shooter" need "something more"? To any new shooters reading this: Keep It Super Simple. Remove your expander ball and use a proper busing. This is what the most precise shooters in the world do. Why try to reinvent the wheel? There are posters on here who seem to like to take simple processes and make them as difficult as possible. I don't get it. To the shooters who perform two-step sizing, could we see some groups of one-step vs two-step? What EVIDENCE do you have to support your claims? If your FL die doesn't give enough neck tension, why not just buy a Type-S FL die? Like I said, I don't get it, but surely I'm missing something.
I should add, I shoot weekly with two world champion BR shooters. Not sure how many records they hold together, but it's double digits. BR is not my cup of tea, but ALL shooters can learn a shit ton from these guys, they operate on a level that doesn't exist on Sniper's Hide.
Those people that get great results using only bushings with no expansion also turn their necks as their means for internal consistency I imagine...
There’s more than one way to skin a cat but I have to admit that I am mighty enticed to give the separate body and mandrel thing a try.
There’s more than one way to skin a cat but I have to admit that I am mighty enticed to give the separate body and mandrel thing a try.
Simply because I already have what I have. Why don't you buy me a full length Type-S die since you seem to have extra $$ laying around?
And why the fuck is it such a big deal for you anyway? Get a life where little things like this won't work you up so much, for cripe's sake.
Brotatochips, I think you need to take a look in the mirror and ask yourself who you're actually mad at? And, send me your address, I'll buy you a Type-S, scouts honor! It would be my pleasure!!
Lol! While I truly appreciate the offer, it's not that big a deal. At some point I will probably upgrade, but it's not right now.
Marksman doesn't understand that BR shooters shoot tight neck chambers where the necks don't expand much at all. I shoot factory chambers where the neck expands .008" to .014" depending on brass make. This fucks things up in terms of sizing, seating, concentricity, stress on brass, etc. If I shot Winchester brass out of a .334" neck chamber I would be using a bushing die and taking it easy, but I shoot a .346" neck chamber and have to do what I do.
Thanks for the reply's guys. The reason I asked was I have 2 different dies. The Redding FL sizer die and the Redding Neck Size bushing die with 2 bushings.I have been having issues getting my 6.5 loads below 20 sd's in my Tikka T3x CTR 20" barrel. I have tried neck sizing only and FL sizing only plus annealing and I am seeing that if I just neck size I get higher sd than if I fl size. So I am trying everything. I don't want to spend more money and buy a fl bushing neck sizing die if I don't have to. Although if Marksman 10x would give me the same offer I would not hesitate to try one.
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For your ES issues: Have you tried a different powder or bullet? Sometimes a particular combination just doesnt jive with your barrel. Im highly suspect of your redding die on its own being the reason for your high SD.
What brass bullet powder combination are you running? When you pull the expander ball back through the necks of brass does it feel stiff and overly difficult or is it smooth? I ask because my 223 thicker lapua brass fed nice until I started annealing which allowed for more spring back. Because of that I needed to start dipping the necks in dry lube and it immediately got better. Switching to a carbide expander ball removed my need for the lube all together. Other types of brass dont have the same issue with the annealing and fed smoothly no matter what.
All of this to say it could be something not directly related to the die itself.
What brass bullet powder combination are you running? When you pull the expander ball back through the necks of brass does it feel stiff and overly difficult or is it smooth? I ask because my 223 thicker lapua brass fed nice until I started annealing which allowed for more spring back. Because of that I needed to start dipping the necks in dry lube and it immediately got better. Switching to a carbide expander ball removed my need for the lube all together. Other types of brass dont have the same issue with the annealing and fed smoothly no matter what.
All of this to say it could be something not directly related to the die itself.
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If you already have the Redding neck only bushing die, and you want to perform body sizing (basically FL sizing without touching the neck), consider a Redding body die. Its purpose is to "bump" the shoulder back. This would allow you to achieve the same end product as if you were using the Redding FL bushing die, but for half the cost. FWIW, while I now see the benefit of using just one die, in the past I've purchased the two-die sets like mentioned above (neck bushing die and body die) and they work just like they should.
