Flatline bullets group buy?
- Thread starter Fursniper
- Start date
Last post by Jeff was here in his GB thread:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ner-flat-line-group-buy?p=6561163#post6561163
In short, it seems that as of about two weeks ago very few people had posted or PMed him to commit to a purchase. If he doesn't get the numbers, there will be no GB.
Plus he had been pretty busy with the Tonopah...
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...ner-flat-line-group-buy?p=6561163#post6561163
In short, it seems that as of about two weeks ago very few people had posted or PMed him to commit to a purchase. If he doesn't get the numbers, there will be no GB.
Plus he had been pretty busy with the Tonopah...
Thanks Lash, I had somehow lost track of the thread on this & couldn't find the bloody thing, thanks for reposting! I'm trying to get some others interested in this....
Guys there is a group buy thread in the group buy area... There have been very few responses, so this is not looking good.
Jeffvn
Jeffvn
Any of you guys having trouble getting these bullets to group well? I've worked a fair amount with the 160's with over 1 MOA as usual results in two different 308 rifles. I was encouraged recent results using a faster powder like IMR 8208 vs Varget or CFE223 but need to do more testing. Too expensive to dick around with much longer.
Come on guys! We need to get orders of the .338 256 grainers bumped up so that it qualifies for the 2500 mark at least. These are a solid choice for reaching out to 2200 yards and more while still supersonic in a standard .338 LM.
Won't you help out a poor starving ELR shooter? I will shoot for food!
Won't you help out a poor starving ELR shooter? I will shoot for food!
I'm selling pencils on a street corner downtown to be able to afford mine....there's always a way lash...
Is the current count 300 for the 338s? I'm interested but can't afford much right now.
It's got to be more than that now, as I have to believe that Fursniper has stepped up. Some people have probably just PMed their interest to Jeff. He would have to say what the current counts are.
And I know what you mean. I put up my 300 in hopes to encourage others, but I usually only order 100 at a time currently. So mine is already a budget stretcher, but I will follow through if this comes to fruition.
And I know what you mean. I put up my 300 in hopes to encourage others, but I usually only order 100 at a time currently. So mine is already a budget stretcher, but I will follow through if this comes to fruition.
I matched your 300 lash. Was trying to get some others interested but it was starting to be like herding cats. Wish I could do more but planning on a LR camera system too, gotta draw the line somewhere.
Hey, I totally get it. Working as a committee is usually an exercise wherein one person does all of the work and the rest claim any positive results as their own. When there is a failure, all jump in to blame the person who did all of the work. Such is life.
And yet, those of us (like Jeff) do this shit anyway because we should have our heads examined. Passion for things in life is like that.
Fursniper,
What kind of 1000 yard ten shot groups are you getting? I have yet to see a turned .338 solid out shoot a lead core jacketed bullet at any distance. I am interested in your results.
EJ
I cannot speak for Fursniper, but I don't shoot 10 shot groups at 1000 with these. I use them for distances past 1 mile as they stay supersonic for me out to 2200 yards. And that is out of a short throated 26" factory barrel.
I did have a three shot "group" of 14" at 1840 yards, but for inside 1200 yards, I use a .260. Inside of a mile I prefer the Hornady 285g HPBT.
I did have a three shot "group" of 14" at 1840 yards, but for inside 1200 yards, I use a .260. Inside of a mile I prefer the Hornady 285g HPBT.
Oh these pills will easily out-shoot lead core bullets at any range, especially out well past 1000yds. Have taken the 198gr 30cals out as far as 1760 with a 308 and know of the 198gr/308 combo going to 2068yds with a 2nd round impact. I'm on my way to MT in a few weeks with my 198gr/308 combo and going for 2nd round or better impact at over 2100yds. The Flatlines are massive step forward in exterior ballistics.
Like lash (and probably many others) I don't shoot my 338LM Improved at 1000 yds, at a $1.70 each for the 256 gn flatlines I consider it a waste of ammo. That's where my 260 & 308 shine. I start at a mile and go out to 2500 with the 338. I also have had good success with the 277 gr cutting edge bullets which while less expensive are still still too pricy to waste at 1000 yds, at least with MY budget. I don't shoot 10 round groups anyway, usually 5 rounds if I'm shooting for "group". The gun is still relatively new so I don't have dope yet for every combination of bullet I'm using and I'm still experimenting but let me put it this way; it isn't that the solids necessarily group any better or worse than the 300 gr SMK's or berger hybrids, the gun prints .2-.4 or better (@100yds) with any of them once you get the powder charge and seating depth right, but the solids give the capability of reaching out sucessfully at much greater distances than the plated lead core bullets. At 1 mile the SMK'S or bergers will shoot moa or better (depending on conditions) on an18"target, I've had equal success with both. (I havent even tried with the plated bullets yet at 1k, seems pointless although I'm sure I will eventually for the hell of it). The solids seem to perform better at that distance (1 mile) with smaller groups but I haven't shot enough at that distance with solids yet to have an exact determination of group size improvement if that's what your interested in. Most of the shooting I have done so far with the 338 is 2000yds and out as that is what I built the gun for, ie, to enjoy a completely different and more challenging type of field shooting. And at those distances I don't even mess with the plated bullets because the solids outperform them significantly. We set up a 24" steel target at 2000yds for example. Because of the distance and the tiny impact signature of a solid bullet, we currently use a LED flasher system for hit indication (even with a $4000 pair of observation "big eye" binoculars it's almost impossible to see impacts at that distance) so we can "see" our hits. But because (at least so far) there are 2 or more shooters using the same targets (set up/getting to the targets is very time consuming), group size if you will, is impossible to determine at this time at those distances (whose hits are whoose?) as we are all shooting solids. Of course, I know all the hits closest to center are mine but my shooting buddies aren't buying it
. We plan on going to a camera target system eventually to eliminate that problem and have a better determination of how each shooter is doing. For now though it's very satisfying to just bang steel at ELR distances.Fursniper,
1000 yard testing was only mentioned as it is the benchmark distance for evaluating loads, determining projectile SD (Oehler 88), elevation, etc. Have you tested the flat line projectiles against the SMK's or Hybrids on paper at 1000 yards? If not, you might want to perform that exercise. If one type of projectile will not shoot good elevation at 1000 yards things are not going to get any better the further out you go. Contrary to popular belief, groups do not shrink the further out one goes. Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the "big eyes: you mention and have a pair of Highlander fluorite, Vixen 20x125's and various other viewing devices for ELR and other shooting and observation applications. Do you, or someone here on the hide. know if any solid projectile , outside of 50 caliber events, holds any 1000 yard five or ten shot group. or score. records? Most, if not all, 1000 yard benchrest and prone shooters that I know shoot those "plated" bullets. as you all them. Perhaps a better question would be if solids shot so well why are not all top level competitors using them? High cost is not the limiting factor as the projectile is the least costly portion of competitive shooting. I am interested in input and opinions.
FYI, I am currently fabricating another ELR barrel blocked rifle with multiple barrels. of various twists, to again test lead core jacketed projectiles and solids. All testing is done is a scientific method.
EJ
1000 yard testing was only mentioned as it is the benchmark distance for evaluating loads, determining projectile SD (Oehler 88), elevation, etc. Have you tested the flat line projectiles against the SMK's or Hybrids on paper at 1000 yards? If not, you might want to perform that exercise. If one type of projectile will not shoot good elevation at 1000 yards things are not going to get any better the further out you go. Contrary to popular belief, groups do not shrink the further out one goes. Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the "big eyes: you mention and have a pair of Highlander fluorite, Vixen 20x125's and various other viewing devices for ELR and other shooting and observation applications. Do you, or someone here on the hide. know if any solid projectile , outside of 50 caliber events, holds any 1000 yard five or ten shot group. or score. records? Most, if not all, 1000 yard benchrest and prone shooters that I know shoot those "plated" bullets. as you all them
. Perhaps a better question would be if solids shot so well why are not all top level competitors using them? High cost is not the limiting factor as the projectile is the least costly portion of competitive shooting. I am interested in input and opinions.FYI, I am currently fabricating another ELR barrel blocked rifle with multiple barrels. of various twists, to again test lead core jacketed projectiles and solids. All testing is done is a scientific method.
EJ
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Jbailey,
Thank you for your concerted reply. What part of the country are you located? If you are ever in the Southeastern portion of the USA please look me up. I would really like to see the 198gr 30cal pills in action on paper and steel at distances between 1000 and 2000 yards. If you are more centrally located, I am confident a show and tell could present itself in or around the Northeastern corner of TX. We shoot steel out there from time to time
. Regards,
EJ
Fursniper,
1000 yard testing was only mentioned as it is the benchmark distance for evaluating loads, determining projectile SD (Oehler 88), elevation, etc. Have you tested the flat line projectiles against the SMK's or Hybrids on paper at 1000 yards? If not, you might want to perform that exercise. If one type of projectile will not shoot good elevation at 1000 yards things are not going to get any better the further out you go. Contrary to popular belief, groups do not shrink the further out one goes. Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the "big eyes: you mention and have a pair of Highlander fluorite, Vixen 20x125's and various other viewing devices for ELR and other shooting and observation applications. Do you, or someone here on the hide. know if any solid projectile , outside of 50 caliber events, holds any 1000 yard five or ten shot group. or score. records? Most, if not all, 1000 yard benchrest and prone shooters that I know shoot those "plated" bullets. as you all them
FYI, I am currently fabricating another ELR barrel blocked rifle with multiple barrels. of various twists, to again test lead core jacketed projectiles and solids. All testing is done is a scientific method.
EJ
If we were only concerned with shooting 100 yard targets for best groups and 1000 yard competition, then this would be a concern and we would likely not be using the Flatlines. I do find that some lead core options shoot better within that constraint. However. To date, I have no knowledge of a conventional lead core projectile with a light enough weight and high enough BC that will allow me to reach 2200 yards easily with my standard .338 LM and a 26" factory barrel, and with less than 23 mils elevation from a 100 yard zero. That is what this is all about to me. I could be wrong, but I do not think that anyone using these is claiming that they shoot better at 1000 yards than some of the most used conventional bullets.
If you have the ability, facilities, time and financial wherewithal to do that testing with not only the Flatline projectiles but also the Cutting Edge (fair is fair), then I am sure that there are many that would like to see the results of such testing. More solid information is always better.
In the meantime, I'll continue to keep making solid impacts at ELR distances with the Flatline bullets since the conventional bullets all die before they get there. 1000 yard accuracy and consistency are a moot point in this specific application.
P.S. You say you will again test lead core jacketed projectiles and solids. This implies that you have done it before using scientific methods. Where is that data or white paper located? Is it somewhere where we can read it?
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IMO, at ELR distances when comparing my 375CT using 350 gr solids to my 30-375Ruger with 240 SMK's, I found the 350's much easier to hit steel with in the wind. In other words the 375CT was a 1moa rifle, the 30 cal a 1/2 moa rifle, so hitting became a function of nearly half the wind drift for the 375CT vs the 30 cal, "not all out accuracy".
All that being said it's very hard to see a nickel sized copper colored splat on steel 2000 yards away but one can just make out a splat from a regular bullet on white painted steel which is about 1.5" in size. Though we have target cams nowadays but didn't at the time I was into ELR.
All that being said it's very hard to see a nickel sized copper colored splat on steel 2000 yards away but one can just make out a splat from a regular bullet on white painted steel which is about 1.5" in size. Though we have target cams nowadays but didn't at the time I was into ELR.
EJ, check out posts #5 and #11 by Diver in this thread:
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...y-ammo-140-vs-147-eldm-comparison#post6594153
The discussion deals specifically with how projectiles react when arriving at and traveling through transonic flight. He's done a fair job of dumbing it down without losing the good bits, thus making it accessible to many more of us. What many of us are doing by using the Flatlines (and similar solids) is trying to stave off the point of entry into the transonic region (1.2-1.3 x SOS).
https://www.snipershide.com/shootin...y-ammo-140-vs-147-eldm-comparison#post6594153
The discussion deals specifically with how projectiles react when arriving at and traveling through transonic flight. He's done a fair job of dumbing it down without losing the good bits, thus making it accessible to many more of us. What many of us are doing by using the Flatlines (and similar solids) is trying to stave off the point of entry into the transonic region (1.2-1.3 x SOS).
M
Well, lash beat me to it this morning as I was out all morning shooting a 416 Barrett with my smith (using 472 gr cutting edge solids at 3200 fps by the way), truly an amazing gun, I want one! Lash pretty much covered the bases of what I wanted to say in reply and as usual, put it much more eloquently than I could have as well as keeping the rhetoric toned down more than I probably would have, lol. He is a voice of reason. But I do have this to say. First of all, thank you for your incredible revelation that dispersion doesn't improve with distance. After 50 years of shooting, my God, the scales have been removed from my eyes! New life has flowed into my veins as finally I have reached the peak of knowledge that I have always sought, truly a mountaintop experience! My happy dance has renewed vigor and my future is bright as I realized the truth of your words, thank you, thank you, thank you. Secondly, why you are stuck on this "1000 yd thing" is beyond me. It's as if you think we have some sort of disdain for plated bullets. I shoot truckloads of plated bullets and they do quite well out to a 1000 & beyond up to their natural limitations, again, no need for anything more there. What you don't seem to get and several here keep trying to explain is one, they simply run out of gas at the distances some of us are shooting, and two, their ability to resist wind influences is limited compared to other designs. Doesn't make them "bad bullets". Thirdly, and to the point of your question about "why top level competitors are not using them" hummmm, I wonder what kind of bullet was Derek Rogers was using when he won the 2 mile competition at the 2017 King of 2 Mile this year with his 375 Cheytac Tac? Oh yeah, it was a solid bullet (cutting edge). Or Ronnie Wright that took second place with his 416 Barrett, yep, a solid from cutting edge. Or take the Applied Ballistics team lead by Bryan Litz the chief ballistician for Berger, a team that has an entire ballistics lab at their disposal and can shoot any dam thing they want, hummm, wonder what kind of bullets THEY were shooting? I could go on ad nauseum about this but suffice it to say that 6 out of the top 10 in this top annual XLR competition were shooting cutting edge solids, many many others were shooting solids of other designs such as flatlines, etc. Since you stated you were interested in input & opinions, well, there, you have a few of mine. Now a question from me, WHAT are YOU shooting at 2500 yds and beyond?
Fursniper,
1000 yard testing was only mentioned as it is the benchmark distance for evaluating loads, determining projectile SD (Oehler 88), elevation, etc. Have you tested the flat line projectiles against the SMK's or Hybrids on paper at 1000 yards? If not, you might want to perform that exercise. If one type of projectile will not shoot good elevation at 1000 yards things are not going to get any better the further out you go. Contrary to popular belief, groups do not shrink the further out one goes. Yes, I am somewhat familiar with the "big eyes: you mention and have a pair of Highlander fluorite, Vixen 20x125's and various other viewing devices for ELR and other shooting and observation applications. Do you, or someone here on the hide. know if any solid projectile , outside of 50 caliber events, holds any 1000 yard five or ten shot group. or score. records? Most, if not all, 1000 yard benchrest and prone shooters that I know shoot those "plated" bullets. as you all them
FYI, I am currently fabricating another ELR barrel blocked rifle with multiple barrels. of various twists, to again test lead core jacketed projectiles and solids. All testing is done is a scientific method.
EJ
Well, lash beat me to it this morning as I was out all morning shooting a 416 Barrett with my smith (using 472 gr cutting edge solids at 3200 fps by the way), truly an amazing gun, I want one! Lash pretty much covered the bases of what I wanted to say in reply and as usual, put it much more eloquently than I could have as well as keeping the rhetoric toned down more than I probably would have, lol. He is a voice of reason. But I do have this to say. First of all, thank you for your incredible revelation that dispersion doesn't improve with distance. After 50 years of shooting, my God, the scales have been removed from my eyes! New life has flowed into my veins as finally I have reached the peak of knowledge that I have always sought, truly a mountaintop experience! My happy dance has renewed vigor and my future is bright as I realized the truth of your words, thank you, thank you, thank you. Secondly, why you are stuck on this "1000 yd thing" is beyond me. It's as if you think we have some sort of disdain for plated bullets. I shoot truckloads of plated bullets and they do quite well out to a 1000 & beyond up to their natural limitations, again, no need for anything more there. What you don't seem to get and several here keep trying to explain is one, they simply run out of gas at the distances some of us are shooting, and two, their ability to resist wind influences is limited compared to other designs. Doesn't make them "bad bullets". Thirdly, and to the point of your question about "why top level competitors are not using them" hummmm, I wonder what kind of bullet was Derek Rogers was using when he won the 2 mile competition at the 2017 King of 2 Mile this year with his 375 Cheytac Tac? Oh yeah, it was a solid bullet (cutting edge). Or Ronnie Wright that took second place with his 416 Barrett, yep, a solid from cutting edge. Or take the Applied Ballistics team lead by Bryan Litz the chief ballistician for Berger, a team that has an entire ballistics lab at their disposal and can shoot any dam thing they want, hummm, wonder what kind of bullets THEY were shooting? I could go on ad nauseum about this but suffice it to say that 6 out of the top 10 in this top annual XLR competition were shooting cutting edge solids, many many others were shooting solids of other designs such as flatlines, etc. Since you stated you were interested in input & opinions, well, there, you have a few of mine. Now a question from me, WHAT are YOU shooting at 2500 yds and beyond?
Jbailey,
Thank you for your concerted reply. What part of the country are you located? If you are ever in the Southeastern portion of the USA please look me up. I would really like to see the 198gr 30cal pills in action on paper and steel at distances between 1000 and 2000 yards. If you are more centrally located, I am confident a show and tell could present itself in or around the Northeastern corner of TX. We shoot steel out there from time to time
Regards,
EJ
I'm in Mid Altantic - Virginia. Actually have a place to go 2100+ yds but haven't had the Flatline/308 combo out on that lane yet. The Flatline/308 combo is absolutely fierce on the 1500yd lane I have, very easy to score 1st and 2nd round hits on small targets. Wind isn't too heavy around here however and I know its flow well, so I'm really looking forward to get back out to the No. Rockies with this setup in a few weeks.
Best of luck down in NE TX - hope that storm doesn't do too much damage.
As far as I know solid copper ammo is not prohibited. It doesn't react with AR 500 targets any differently than plated lead core bullets do (it does leave a much smaller impact signature) as long as distances to the target are appropriate for the caliber. Now, steel cored ammo like what is readily available in .223 for example, yes, that WILL damage steel targets, even AR500 and is prohibited at matches. I've seen competitors disqualified several times at 3-gun matches for using steel cored ammo. They usually receive a good cussing out by the match director as well, lol. There's a safety issue with steel cored ammo at matches as well. I'm not sure why anyone would want to use solid bullets however for multigun or PRS style events considering how expensive they are and the distances being shot. At the distances being shot at typical multigun/PRS matches plated bullets perform just fine. For ELR/XLR events however, that's another story.
They were allowed in the PRS ELR match back in July (out in windy WY), after the MD said they were allowed. Josh Kunz brought his 308/198gr combo to that match and did very well with it against a field of big magnums sending high density Bergers at 3000+ fps. Another match with targets at long range and windy conditions - Allegheny Sniper Challenge in WV - has had a mixed record: not allowed at their 308 only match but allowed in their open matches. Some F-class matches are not allowing, so are. So I would say there is not a definitive "are they allowed" question, but a partial "they are mostly allowed"...
In terms of these things punching thru targets - I have used them w/o issue the AR500 on my farm. However I haven't had them at under 400 yds and I'm sending them at 2770-ish MV.
Agreed. It's usually a function/decision of individual match directors and/or club leadership so I'm sure it varies from event to event. Some clubs are a little more sensitive than others to the potential for target damage & at the prices for steel targets I can't say I blame them. I shoot a 338LM with solids at all my steel targets and have never experienced any damage to targets but anything is possible I guess if you get them close enough.
The group buy is dead. Not enough orders to justify going forward. Thanks for the interest of those who wanted to participate.
Jeffvn
Jeffvn
We are not opposed to reviving this in the future, when more interest can be generated. This might be better received with late Fall early Winter timing when folks are starting to think about next year's supply.
