For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Don-n-Texas

Don-n-Texas

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Apr 17, 2011
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Houston now in Denton County
#1
I'm thinking of trying 3 gun matches. I have a old Mossberg 12 gauge pump I shot trap with years ago.

I broke it out and started shooting a few round of trap to practice for 3 gun.

I'm going to buy a Tac shotgun. I'm not sure if I should get a pump or a Semi Auto.

I have no knowledge of Semi Auto shot guns except they can break, jam and a lot of trouble. And Pump Shotguns just work.

I've been looking at the Mossberg 590A1 and the 930 SPX.

I've heard Semi Auto have trouble with lighter loads like #9 or #8 target loads. Does anyone experience this.

A tac shotgun gun training class I want to sign up for requires target loads #8 or #9.

The reason I'm considering a Semi Automatic is I think you could get on your next target faster and smoother.

Also my training plan is to take a Tac Pistol course And continue to shoot trap at the same time as I practice with my pistol.

Then buy a shotgun and take the Tac Shotgun class. And practice those two while I save to get an AR.

 
#2
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Hmm, I know of a certain Benelli M3 that has the ability to shoot both semi and pump..........
smile.gif
 
#4
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I run an FNH SLP Mk1 and could not be happier with its performance even with 8's it puts 9 empty shells in the air before the first one can hit the ground.
 
#6
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I have seen guys run pumps with amazing speed that puts the semi guns to shame. I ran an M1 for years and the only trouble I had was when I failed to clean it for about nine months, once I remembered that it was no problem at all. It shoots anything from slugs to #8 without trouble.

You will see mostly semi autos at 3 gun matches. the best advice I can give is shoot what you like and have a great time!
 
#7
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I run Benelli's in 3 gun, depending what match I shoot, I choose between my M2 Benelli and my Nova. DONT get a Benelli M3 or M4 for this game. The next big match I'm shooting is the Rocky Mountain 3 gun in Raton and I'll be using my Nova. Its required to use a pump 12 gauge in Heavy optics class along with a 308 and a 45 ACP. the Benelli Nova has about 30% less recoil than my Rem. 870 with the same ammo and its alot lighter. Just my .02 cents. I've been shooting 3gun for almost 20 years and tried just about every gun out there.
 
#9
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

A great wealth of information about the shotguns utilized to play the 3gun game can be found here:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showforum=49

Currently the top three shotguns utilized are:

Benelli M2 and M1
FNH SLP

A majority of folks run semi's however a pump is still very competitive <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">if</span></span> you put in the practice time with it. A Benelli Nova is probably one of the top choices in a pump, although a Rem 870 will get the job done as well. You will want a barrel length of 22"-24" and a choke constriction of IC or Mod. Cylinder choke can sometimes not produce enough pattern density at distance to knock over some steel targets. Shotgun targets in 3gun are typically static not dynamic and the speed at which you can reload becomes a more critical aspect of the game than your ability to hit a moving clay at some oblique angle. Here is an excellent primer on how the shotgun aspect of 3gun is played:
<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/I1TTr25YYuw"></param> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/I1TTr25YYuw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
#12
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

You will be very happy with the Mossberg 930 if you decide to go that route. It is arguably the fastest shotgun on the market. Very fast action and very short trigger reset. Mine cycles everything you can fit in it, including the super handicap 26 gram loads although those wont do you any good in three gun as they wont knock anything over. Another benefit of the mossberg is that you can get about 3 of them for the price of the other guns mentioned.

Scott
 
#13
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Thanks to everyone good advice from everyone. I think now I will get a Semi Auto.

I will most likely go with the Mossberg because of price. You can buy them everywhere and on sale if your will to shop around.

Scooty Puff I'm not one of those guys. lol

Tim3gun My brother is my shooting partner. We know we're nose pickers in the back. If we go to a big match like that we would be doing it as a vacation. Maybe camp out and do some sight seeing too.

Bunsen That a lot of great information. I took out my plug and started practicing loading my Mossberg pump last night.

I found those shell holders online. They're kind of expensive, I may get some later.

Practicing loading is something I can do now at no cost.

Shooting trap is fun and smoothly setting your feet, shouldering your shotgun and acquiring your target are the same I would think.

Thanks to you I know I'll need to have a improved cylinder choke tube installed when I get the new shotgun.

I'm going to a 3 gun match to see what everyone is doing.

Scott thanks that helped.
 
#15
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I agree with Scott.

BUT do not get the SPX .... Mossberg is fixing to release a comp ready 930 hopefully this year.

The comp ready 930 will ahve a 24 inch barrel threaded for chokes, an extended tube, loading port opened up .... blah blah blah ...

Ive been running my 930 for some time now and Ive had shooters that have borrowed it have said it was nicer than some other top brands and turn key shotgun providers.
 
#18
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I'm not sure if you ever heard of Briley, here in Houston the Gunsmiths say they're the best.

For $200.00 They will thread the barrel and give me three chokes. (Lead Shot) Steel is more money. I don't think I need steel or do I.

My question Outsy You said to run a cylinder bore for clays. They have a .0000 choke listed do I need that one to protect my threads?

This is what they list

Cylinder Bore .000
Improved Cylinder .010"
Light modified .015"
Modified .020"
Improved Modified .025"
Light Full .030"
Full .035"
Extra full .040"

What are the recommendations? I get 3 for $200.00.

Here is their web site.

http://www.briley.com/

If any High Rollers want to add a $1000.00 to the price of their shotgun Briley has a improvement package for 3 gun.
 
#19
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

you dont need chokes for steel shot. Briley has been around a long time, they know what they are doing. There is a gunsmith in Texas named Benny Hill from Triangle Shooting Sports. He does alot of shotgun work for alot of 3 gunners.
 
#20
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Improved Cylinder .010"

Modified .020"

Light Full .030"

Get those 3 and you will be able to do just about anything needed. Do not buy ones for steel, you wont use steel shot at a match, unless of course you plan on double duty and want to hunt with it as well. I would suggest to get the extended chokes so you can look at it and see which one you have in.

Most of the time a Mod choke will be the best choice overall. But if you have some far steel that seems to be tough to get a lot of shot on then change to the light full and bring your pattern tighter.

Make sure that you pattern each choke and see what it does with your selected shotgun shells, also changing to the IM might change POI with slugs. There is a lot of learning with the shotgun aspect of 3 gun, its not as straight forward as a lot of people think.
 
#21
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any suggestion or advice on choke tubes. Mossberg has a Improved Cylinder choke is that one OK or should I get a different brand. </div></div>

I may have missed this but were you going to have your current gun cut back and choked? Briley does good work, but you may also want to consider buying another barrel with chokes already. It would be in the $200 ballpark. Was your shotgun a Moss 500 or something else? If it's something older then briley would be your best option. As Outsy said IC, M, and LF should cover 99% of 3gun stages and the extended tubes are great to easily verify what choke you have in the gun and more importantly to quickly change it out.
wink.gif
 
#22
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

FN SLP all the way $500 to $600 less than Benelli and is out of box ready just add velcro side shell carrier

I have probably 2K rounds through mine it eats everything and I have let a ton of folks shot mine in matches with no FTF

I did add later a Carlson Light modified extended choke to optimize
 
#23
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Bunsen Thank you
I'm going to buy a new Semi Auto. Most likely a Mossberg 930 SPX. Briley is about 5 miles from my house. So I will wear their ass out asking them question when I start reloading shells.

All I know is I'm going to retire in 5 years my little brother will retire in 5 years too and this is how we want spend our time.

My brother broke his shoulder playing softball (at 57 yrs old) He will be on the side for another 4 months. So right now we're leaning as much as we can and looking for a good deal on 2 shotguns.

I have a lot to learn. I'm really enjoy learning about guns.

This is the 2 extended chokes Brileys offers

Mossberg Extended Black Oxide Choke

http://www.briley.com/mossbergextendedblackoxidex2choke.aspx

and
Mossberg Extended Choke

http://www.briley.com/mossbergextendedchoke.aspx

Does it make a difference which one I get.

Outsy Thank you

That was a big help.

I'm finding out a shotgun is not a just point and shoot.

But thanks to y'all I'm getting a lot of great information

Tim3 gun Good luck in Raton (Raton is a beautiful place) And Thank you.

Branson FN SLP may be out of my price range, but I'm looking at them. There are some gun shows coming up, If I find a good deal I may join you as a proud FN SLP owner.

Thank you all for you time.
 
#24
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

The only difference on those two extended chokes is the finish ... I dont see a need for the black oxide.

Again, dont do the SPX model. If you cant get the competition version 930 then I would suggest just a field version and take the 28 inch barrel over to Briley and have them cut it off behind the ports. It will then be about 22 inches and put a Nordic Components extended mag tube so you can load 8 rounds into the tube and 1 in the chamber for a total of 9 rounds to keep you in either tac optics or limited.

If you are wanting the SPX for the sights just go buy a set of clamp on Williams sights that go on the vent rib. Ive done a lot of work to my 930 but then again I havent done a lot to it either. I opened up the loading port and done a few other things here and there to it.
 
#25
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Outey That is a great idea. I'm going to check that out. Thank you.

Ill add up this cost, If it is close to the Remington 11-87 I may go that way.

The gun shows will be starting soon. I'm going to take all I've learn from you guys and go look.

My brother lives in Dallas when the shows leave here they go to Dallas. If I have to I can run up to Dallas and pick it up if a dealer doesn't have it with him.

One thing about living in Texas EVERYONE who sells guns come here to sell them. lol


Another thing we're lucky to have is good training.

When brother get healed up we're start taking gun training course.

He lives in Dallas 3 Mills Right is 30 minutes from his house. Tiger Vally is 2 hours away.

The Impactzone is 1 hour from me and the Cawthon Cartridge Club is 1 1/2 hours. So we have access to good training and Matches when we're ready to go.

There is a lot of Indoor and out door ranges here too. Everyone is packin in Houston. lol
 
#26
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

For pistols I have a 9MM Beretta Px4 Storm model F.

I'm thinking I may end up needing a second pistol.

If I do get another pistol do I need another 9 or go with a .45 ACP. A gun store I go to has a 9MM Beretta Px4 Storm model F for $500.00 and 12 months financing no interest. Or a .45 Beretta Px4 Storm model F for $600.00 12 months financing no interest.

I don't really need the financing but walking out with a new pistol for $50.00 is like getting it for free.

They got plenty of pumps Remington 870 and the Benelli Super Nova. I could get a Nova for $500.00 but I want a semi auto.

I could order anything I want and get financing, but no good deals.

How many rounds do run through your pistols, shotguns, rifles before letting them cool off.

I let mind cool and don't get hot at all but I may be to cautious.

 
#27
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For pistols I have a 9MM Beretta Px4 Storm model F.

I'm thinking I may end up needing a second pistol.

If I do get another pistol do I need another 9 or go with a .45 ACP. A gun store I go to has a 9MM Beretta Px4 Storm model F for $500.00 and 12 months financing no interest. Or a .45 Beretta Px4 Storm model F for $600.00 12 months financing no interest.

I don't really need the financing but walking out with a new pistol for $50.00 is like getting it for free.

They got plenty of pumps Remington 870 and the Benelli Super Nova. I could get a Nova for $500.00 but I want a semi auto.

I could order anything I want and get financing, but no good deals.

How many rounds do run through your pistols, shotguns, rifles before letting them cool off.

I let mind cool and don't get hot at all but I may be to cautious.

</div></div>

Other than it being uglier than a bag full of dicks there isnt enough mag capacity. For most 3 gun stuff run a 9mm and youll want to be able to get atleast 22 rounds in a mag. I can get 24 rounds total in my pistol to start if I need it. changing mags costs time if you can do as few as possible thats better. On a stage that has 22 shots to be fired you have to change mags, I dont.

As far as getting stuff hot .... 3 gun is all about speed and accuracy .... you want to shoot the targets as fast as possible. I have a 48 round AR mag ..... it has been used completely in a stage before.... I can carry 28 shotgun shells on my person and 9 total in the gun and have gone thru all of them in a stage before ..... you dont worry about letting stuff cool while you are shooting ....
 
#28
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

LOL ugly How can it be ugly It's Italian lol

Them Glocks are uuuuuugggly lol

Beretta makes a 20 round clip. but that's still not 22.

CZ makes a 25 round clip for the CZ 75 SP-01 TACTICAL

That's only $150.00 more than the PX$. It's a heavier all steel pistol. And a little bigger over all.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outsy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Other than it being uglier than a bag full of dicks </div></div>

Calling my gun ugly I'm not going to show you pictures of my old lady. lol lol



 
#29
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have no knowledge of Semi Auto shot guns except they can break, jam and a lot of trouble. </div></div>
The you really have no knowledge of semi auto shotguns

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've heard Semi Auto have trouble with lighter loads like #9 or #8 target loads. </div></div> You've heard wrong


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The reason I'm considering a Semi Automatic is I think you could get on your next target faster and smoother.
</div></div>
I would agree with that
 
#30
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

I just had to check this out seeing all the replies. Looks like the semi won the debate and the 930 would serve you well. I run a Benelli M1 and have no desire for anything different. It eats light loads just fine. Just get out and shoot a match or 2 before trying to upgrade your pistol and everything else. Pistol <span style="font-style: italic">magazines </span> are typically regulated by the rules of the match and go by length (140mm is typical for tactical), so capacity of aftermarket mags shouldn't have much to do with that decision. The Mossy 500 would still be a functional shotgun to get started. The next debate you'll run into is barrel length for the AR. It's a never ending cycle of addictive fun.
 
#31
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

proneshooter Your right I didn't. I wanted a Semi Auto. I just didn't want to spend that much money and later learn what I had heard was true.

Now I'm going to get one.

mscot I'm going to some local matches, the ones where I'll be shooting as an observer.

See what is going on. I plan on also taking some training from them too. Get to know them and go from there.

Thanks to you guys I'll know things to look for and questions to ask.

I may just start with my Mossy to start. I looking and trying to learn.

It just looks like so much fun.

And when everyone has a gun everyone is always nice. lol

I don't have a AR yet. That will be my next can of worms. lol

And optics will be very informative too. lol

I started a thread about AR's in The Semi Auto Rifle section. Before I got interested in 3 gun.

Tactical Semi Automatics are hard to find. And no special on them either.



 
#33
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Outsy Semi Automatic shot gun are hard to find in this town. I found 2 11-87 bead sights, but they were 22" I went back to get one the next day and both had been sold.

I found 1 Benelli field M2, But I hate to spend $1200 on it then start cutting on it.

But I'm going to keep looking.

Now I'm going to open another can of worms.

I'm thinking of ordering the RRA LAR-15 Entry Operator 2 With the flip front sight gas block assembly. And the RRA tactical carry handle.

You guys set me straight on Shotguns and pistols. What do you think about the RRA Operator 2?

Can of worms 2. What kind of sights do I need to run?

The match I attend this weekend some were running open sights, A lot of them were running Millet 1-4x25. Then others had scopes I wasn't close enough to identify.

What set up works the best.
 
#34
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Look around for a used Benelli M1. 1100s serve a lot of people well, but don't forget the Mossberg 930.
As for the AR, I would buy something with a 18 or 20" barrel, rifle length gas system, float tube, A2 stock, metal magazines, and a comp such as a Nordic or Miculek. It's an endless argument, but that's my opinion. A lot of guys use 16" carbines, but I don't think any of the top dogs do. If you want irons for sights get an A2 rear sight (DPMS sells a good detatchable) and run the YHM flip gas block/sight combo used as a sight only mounted out by the comp. A good budget scope is the Weaver 1-3x and it just goes up from there. I wouldn't buy a Millet.
 
#36
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Lots to chose from but I run a FN SLP Mk1 for shotgun (with a Nordic bolt handle as the only mod), a G19 for pistol (3.5 disconnector, fiber sights), and an 18" mid-gas AR (WOA barrel). The AR has an ACOG TA31F and JP 45 degree offset short-irons at the front of the free float.

As for the pistols you talked about between the Beretta and the CZ I'd go with the CZ. That particular gun sees plenty of use in USPSA but I don't recall seeing anyone run a Beretta, so you're more liable to find aftermarket upgrades for the CZ.
 
#38
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

It wouldn't hurt to double check, but I believe that if you put two optics on your AR that'll bump you from "Tactical Optics" to "Open" class (think DBM semi-auto shotguns and "race gun" handguns).

Cheers,

Bill
 
#40
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

Easiest way to figure DIVISIONS... multiple optics on rifle, optic on pistol, detachable mag fed shotgun = OPEN. 308 or larger rifle, 45 cal pistol with no more than 10 rounds in a mag, and pump shotgun holding no more than 9 total = HEAVY METAL. One variable power optic on rifle, whatever pistol with iron sights, and semi auto shotgun = TACTICAL OPTICS. Iron sighs OR a fixed 1x dot on rifle, iron sighted pistol, and semi shotgun = TACTICAL IRONS/LIMITED.
 
#43
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

The 55gr Hornady fmj is a good economical bullet. I use H335 as it meters nicely. For 9mm you could use moly bullets like Precision Bullets or Black Bullets International for economical loads. If you don't mind spending a few more $$ go with Montana Gold or Zero jhp bullets. I prefer the heavier bullets for the caliber, so 147gr bullets in the 9mm would be my choice. I use WST for mine, but there isn't any official data for the 9mm, so I'd recomend not starting with it. Shotgun shells really aren't worth loading for the light loads you can buy for $50 a case. Heavy 1 1/4 oz. loads are worth reloading.
 
#45
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

One question I have that I hesitate to ask because I didn't want to piss off the people that are so kind to help me,

I'm going to ask it now and hope I don't piss off people.

Why not just get a Auto loader with a 28" barrel put the longest tube you can get on it and 3 gun with that.

I was thinking the idea with the tactical shotgun was close quarter self defense and close quarter combat. Also used by LE and the military as a urban entry weapon.

If that is not the case and targets are being moved father back why not use a 28" barrel.

Now FNH has the blue gun 24" barrel, I bet 26" barrels will come out next year. Why not bypass 24" and 26" and get a 28" and start saving for a 30" barrel.

Thank everyone for their help.




 
#46
Re: For 3 gun shooting Pump or Semi Auto?

If anyone gets pissed over a question, then screw them. That's what these forums are for. I think you need to do some research on your end as I have no idea what matches you are shooting. Check out the Brian Enos forums for good info on 3 gun related stuff as well.

Most matches have a set of rules that limit the capacity of your shotgun. For Tactical or Limited you are only allowed 8 in the tube and one in the chamber. Open depends on the rules for the match you are shooting. An 8 round tube will end up around 21-22" of barrel and there really isn't any reason to have anything longer. I run a 26" Benelli because it works fine the way it is. If I had the choice I would have purchased a 21" barreled version, but got a smokin' deal on the 26"er. I could spend money on getting it cut down and threaded for chokes, but don't see a need for it. If I shoot Open the mag tube comes out just past the end of the barrel and allows me to start with 13 rounds in the gun. That is pretty nice. Anything longer and reliability is going to suffer. The FN SLP would be an excellent gun to get into the game with.

Rifle and shotgun barrel length is argued about as much as barrel break in on precision rifles and there is really no end to the argument. My advice is to get into the game with whatever equipment you can come up with and make up your own mind. There's nothing wrong with looking at the equipment the top dogs are winning with either. I don't think you'll find many with 30" shotgun barrels or 16" rifles.
 
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