For the intermediate skilled reloader, what's the next best step?

[Rifle_Rob_]

Ok pros, teach me up! I'm trying to fine tune my reloads to get optimal performance and consistency. I'm an intermediate reloader at best.

Remember that feeling you had when you shot your first batch of "oh boy this is it!" reloads vs. store bought? Yeah...what's 2.0 feel like?

I've done my OCW test. I tumble. I do my brass prep like a good boy. I sort by weight. I measure to ogive. I seat to just off the lands and try to get them as consistent as possible with my 101 caveman tools. And after all that, I get "good enuff" results. Like 20ish ED. Really starts showing up 1000-1200yds.

But when I browse forums I get lost in the techniques. Drop tube? Had to google. Mandrel and why? Had to google. Annealing? Yeah I've burnt some brass up with propane. Neck tension? Only when my wife catches me buying more gun stuff. She's firm, but fair.

I've not crossed the line into the advance stuff, but I'm thinking I'm right on the cusp of it. Can someone steer me towards the next single most beneficial step towards achieving perfection? Website, book, etc? Or share with me their step by step processes that yielded them the best results?

Current load:
6.5 Creedmoor
Ruger RPR 24"
Hornady brass (cheap)
143 Eld-x (cause I had a bunch)
41.9 H-4350 (all i got. confirmed off OCW/ladder test & for temp stability. shoot 30s to 90s F)
2.93 to lands with an .05 jump single feed (no, i've not really messed with it, just heard that was where it's gonna be anyway)
CCI #200 primers (all i have at the moment)
avg. velocities low 2660s to mid 2680s with a couple of zoomies or pokies to just throw off your data.

 

[PowellSixO]

A lot of it, is just being willing to try multiple combinations to get your desired results. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how anal you are about your reloading process, the simple fact is some combinations work and some don’t.

 

[lightman]

Truthfully more trigger time will probably trump more advance loading procedures. The next step could be neck sizing. Maybe with a bushing die. Or maybe neck turning. Any improvement may not be worth the dollars spent. Maybe a competition type seating die if you are not already using one. I don't mean to discourage you but at some point every small reduction in group size cost a lot of money.

But you probably will see more improvement with a custom barrel.

 

[Buzzinga]

-Get a custom FL sizing die in conjunction with an expander die to set perfect neck tension for every round. Forster only charges $15 to custom hone a FL die.

Full Length Sizing Dies – Forster Products

Produces ammunition with a "glove fit" to your chamber, ideal for use after each firing or after multiple firings when brass flow necessitates full-length sizin

www.forsterproducts.com

Expander Die Body

21st Century Shooting, Reloading products, Reload, reloading ammo, 21st century, twenty first century shooting, shooting, expander die body, gun reloading, tools for reloading, front rest, f class, bench rest, short handle, arbor press, powder measure, bullet, bullet comparators, die base, shell...

www.xxicsi.com

-Seat bullets with a Forster/Redding seating die.

Use Lapua Brass

EDIT: don't wet tumble, lol, that went out with Obama,

 

[Skg_Mre_Lght]

Buy Lapua brass, good bullets, trickle your powder and go shoot.

I've been loading since I got out of the Army in '05, and went through the phase of buying gadgets, reading "Handloading for Competition", and geeking out of benchrest tips and tricks. Know what helped the most? Fundamentals, dry firing, and practice.

As of now, I refuse to even wet tumble because I don't want to add steps to an already tedious job.

 

[PowellSixO]

Everyone has their own way of finding a good load, and most methods will get you there one way or another. This is my two cents, and the way I’ve found to work for me. I generally look for popular powders that others have found to work well for them in a specific caliber and bullet combination. I then try to find the powder that’s going to fill the case as much as possible when reaching max load. I don’t want there to be a void inside of the case. Slightly compressed can be wonderful in my experience. Then I’ll start my reloading at the minimum charge weight, and load a single round in .1 or .2 grain increments, all the way to the max recommended charge weight, and even up to a grain or two beyond. I load all of these initial loads at .025 off the lands. I’ll shoot everyone of them over a good chronograph, looking for flat spots. I’m also paying attention to any signs of pressure obviously. If I find a solid flat spot, I’ll pick the powder charge weight right in the middle of the flat spot, and do a seating depth test. I’ll start .010 off the lands, and work .005 off the lands all the way out to .060 off the lands. If I’m not happy at the end, I scrap the powder I’m using and start over. After a few powder changes, I’ll scrap the bullet. It takes time, and patience. Sometimes I get lucky and the barrel likes everything. A good quality barrel will be less of a trouble to find a load for in most cases. I shoot a LOT, and this works for me very well.

 

[AllenOne1]

"avg. velocities low 2660s to mid 2680s with a couple of zoomies or pokies to just throw off your data."

This bothers me you have too much spread and then you have outliers on top of that. What scale are you using? I would focus on powder charge weights and neck tension.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Make it simple. (If I list something you already have, disregard)

Get a Redding type S die or Forster non bushing. Take the sizing ball out. If using Redding bushing die, use a bushing .001 - .002 smaller than your desired neck ID.

Get .263 .2635 .2625 mandrels (and some others within .001 either way

Get .262 .2625 .263 pin gauges

Get Berger 130 or 140’s

Get Lapua brass

Find load data for H4350 that runs 140’s in the 2750-2800 area and 130’s in the 2850-2900

Use light charge and lube on inside of necks for first firing and use about .001 neck tension (new/clean brass will have more friction)

On fired brass, use Wheeler method to find shoulder bump/sizing. Size down. Mandrel up with the appropriate mandrel that gets you .002 or .0015 neck tension.

Use a charge master or better setup that will measure to a kernel

You can do powder charge weight testing looking for either velocity flat spots or ES nodes, but your ES should easily be inside 40 with proper brass prep and dropping powder to a kernel

Start .020 off lands. They will probably shoot there. But you can do seating depth testing from there.

If this combination/process doesn’t shoot, it’s either you or the barrel is trash.

 

[Dthomas3523]

All these super in depth OCW tests and such aren’t really needed with most 6.5 and 6’s when shooting practical sized targets. Good brass prep and powder drop will get your ES well inside acceptable range.

Also, the whole “you’ll just need to try a bunch of different stuff” is fairly outdated info. You likely won’t find a barrel that won’t shoot h4350 and Berger 130 and 140’s. If you do, it’s probably a junk barrel and not worth the time.

 

[AllenOne1]

"Get a Redding type S die or Forster non bushing. Take the sizing ball out. If using Redding bushing die, use a bushing .001 - .002 smaller than your desired neck ID."

Shouldn't his be smaller than your desired neck OD?

Take a loaded round measure the OD, use a bushing about .002 less than that measurement.

 

[Dthomas3523]

"Get a Redding type S die or Forster non bushing. Take the sizing ball out. If using Redding bushing die, use a bushing .001 - .002 smaller than your desired neck ID."

Shouldn't his be smaller than your desired neck OD?

Take a loaded round measure the OD, use a bushing about .002 less than that measurement.

ID/OD, doesn’t matter. Just make sure the ID ends up smaller.

Calipers are a shit show at this level. Make sure the pin gauge thats .002 or .0015 doesn’t fit.

Make sure using micrometer and not caliper when measuring this small as well.

 

[ShtrRdy]

You can't expect great results when using a so-so bullet. The ELD-X line of bullets are not match bullets.

 

[PowellSixO]

I have a 6.5cm that shoots well with h4350, but shoots incredibly with RL16. It’s shoots the 147 eldm about as well as I can hope for. This is a five shot group from 1005 yards. It’s nothing more than a buds guns scratch and dent Howa hcr. It took a while to get the load, but I’ve won prs matches with it.

I also have a 7 saum that shoots the 175 eldx equally as well. Here’s a group at 1501 yards. It’s just a budget light weight hunting rifle tikka t3 build. Nothing special.
I wouldn’t say they’re the easiest or best bullet out there, but they will shoot if you spend some time with them.

6.5cm 1005 yards

7saum 1501 yards & buck I shot this year at 809 yards

 

[Dthomas3523]

You can literally make most anything shoot small groups with seating depth. Performance at distance is more velocity consistency than anything.

This stuff is very simple. If the groups are small enough at 100yds, they are capable of shooting the exact same at distance.

What determines that is now your velocity ES. With good brass, good scale, and consistent brass prep, you can keep that pretty low and should be able to with multiple powders. And typically with very little or no charge weight testing.

If your performance at distance doesn’t match your performance at 100yds, and your velocity ES is small enough to maintain the 100yd performance, it’s now either the shooter or bullet to bullet BC isn’t consistent from bullet to bullet.

If load development takes any real amount of time, you’re likely doing something wrong, or you have a bad barrel.

 

[clcustom1911]

I have a 6.5cm that shoots well with h4350, but shoots incredibly with RL16. It’s shoots the 147 eldm about as well as I can hope for. This is a five shot group from 1005 yards. It’s nothing more than a buds guns scratch and dent Howa hcr. It took a while to get the load, but I’ve won prs matches with it.

I also have a 7 saum that shoots the 175 eldx equally as well. Here’s a group at 1501 yards. It’s just a budget light weight hunting rifle tikka t3 build. Nothing special.
I wouldn’t say they’re the easiest or best bullet out there, but they will shoot if you spend some time with them.

6.5cm 1005 yards

View attachment 7560182View attachment 7560183View attachment 7560184

7saum 1501 yards & buck I shot this year at 809 yards
View attachment 7560185View attachment 7560186View attachment 7560187

Gotta love the "minute-o-cope can" accuracy

 

[clcustom1911]

The one thing I did that really "brought it all together" was doing a seating depth test.

Once I did that, my eyes were opened to what that could actually do for my rifle. Tikka T3x Tac A1, 6.5CR, 142 Matchkings with H4350, Prime brass, Federal 210M primers.

Seating depth test interpretations... uh... assistance.

Full disclosure: I've never really done an actual seating depth test before in my 10 years of loading for bolt guns. I've only really tried to duplicate factory match ammo dimensions with better velocity, SD, and ES. It works, but I wanted to actually see what magic could happen. I'm going...

www.snipershide.com

 

[BullGear]

Find a quality bullet. Then experiment with different powders, bullet depth, etc. Then a lot of range time.

All of the components are up to you.

 

[CK1.0]

Using a mandrel after FL sizing has cut my SD's in half, and getting a handle on getting really consistent neck tension every time has been the biggest "next-level reloading-epiphany" I've experienced. Consistent feeling bullet-seating-pressure round-to-round seems to be analogous to getting consistent neck tension, and the mandrel seems to make that happen way better than before I used one.

Another thing that has been huge for me is: jump is good, fuck chasing the lands. I no longer care about where the lands are, I just treat maximum magazine length COAL as jam, and find a seating depth that shoots. I only have to adjust my seating depth .003" a couple times during a barrel's life, and only if I really want to be OCD about it.

I now think loading to jam, in the lands, or .020 off or whatever is all a waste of time because when loading that tight, the smallest changes that occur from normal wear and throat erosion fuck everything up, and a load that shot good can change to dog-poop over 150rds... jumping further, I can go 500+rds and have nothing noticeably change on me really.

 

[Mike6158]

This is an interesting thread. It's old so it gives me a look back to what I used to do. Nobody mentions barrel tuners or proper cleaning and verification with a borescope. They weren't a thing for the average shooter in 2021. At least they weren't for me. I've changed how I reload, how I test, and how I shoot by paying attention to what the F Class guys and gals are doing now.

 

[Rust]

First off, you mention velocity inconsistencies. Primary cause is inconsistent powder weight. You need to get within 0.2 gr. or less charge to charge, preferably 0.1 gr. Trying to get under that doesn't get you much more. Brass, well that can help too, been a proponent of Lapua brass for years and don't use much else. Try to get the brass all of the same lot number. Get a micrometer bullet seater. I tend towards Redding.

I hear a lot about calipers vs micrometers. Well, I spent a little cash because I used them at work and have Mitotoyos and Starrets. The calipers read to .0005" and the micrometers read to .00005" and are NIST rated. But for just comparison of one thing to another any decent caliper will be OK. When you measure your bullet seating measure to the ogive of the bullet. The Hornady tools work fine for determining bullet seating. The bullet overall length can vary a bit, the base to ogive should not.

Main thing is you want everything repeatable, each loaded round as close to the next as possible.

I've got a cabinet full of stuff that sounded good at the time (powder throwers, various neck turners, scales and what not) that have sat unused for years. The stuff on the bench hasn't changed in a long time. Rockchucker, Redding dies, Wilson micrometer case trimmer, Sinclair runout tool, aluminum powder funnels with the brass neck, Lee priming tools (go ahead and laugh), and an RCBS Chargemaster (plugged into a Furman power conditioner/surge suppressor and warmed up for at least fifteen minutes), and Sinclair carbide primer pocket cleaner/uniformers.

Now if you're planning on serious benchrest competition that's another thing completely but for anything else the basics will get you there.

 

[England]

Read a basic text on statistical analysis. Not sexy, but you'll avoid the mirage of small sample sizes.

 

[Mike6158]

Use a charge master or better setup that will measure to a kernel

I have a Chargemaster 1500. I've loaded a lot of rounds with it. I recently updated to the Autotrickler V4 and A&D FX-12oi scale. I recently dumped my Chargemaster loads into the A&D scale and even after letting it stabilize and calibrating it, the Chargemaster would show a charge weight but when I dumped it into the A&D the charge would be 0.2gr heavier. The V4/scale combo is faster than the Chargemaster 1500.


Nobody ever says how many rounds per group is good enough.

I recently switched from worrying about ES to looking for single digit SD's. Preferably a wide node with single digit SD's. I used to think I could test 3 shot groups, look for good ES, and that was good enough. After all, if the ES on a 3 shot group was crap it would not get better if I shot more rounds. However, the converse is not true. A great ES can go to hell if I shoot two more and the load isn't good. After switching my focus to ES I did a test to see what the difference between 5 shots and 10 was. I loaded 5 sighters the same as the middle charge of a 5 shot string. Then I checked SD of the sighters, then the middle charge, then the two charges combined. The 3rd, 9th, and 10th columns have the results.

Column 3: SD=11.0. Column 10: SD=15.1. That takes care of each 5 shot group. Column 9 is both 5 shot groups, same charge, combined. SD = 15.7 So not better. And it's not a single digit SD.

If it's the first test for the powder and / or barrel, I'll keep an eye on ES and if the 3 round ES is great, I'll shoot 5. If it's still great I'll make note of that and think about shooting a 10 shot group with the same charge. Most of the time, if it's the first go with a new rifle and powder, I'm not going to trust the 5 shot group.


This is the second powder that I tested

The next test will start with column 4 and go up from there in 0.1gr increments