Advanced Marksmanship Forend Grip technique

[seansmd]

Folks,

I am clearly a NOOB and in a phase of insatiable learning, have sought and received much great advice and direct hands on teaching form the Hide folks. I am attending a class with Frank up in Alaska in May and can't wait for that weekend for some extended criticism and adjusting me and my technique.A friend and similar learner came across this and shared: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html

If this has been debated here it did not show up in the searches I tried.

The author is advocating for foreend hand control which is often discussed here for positional shots where bi-pod and rear bag may not be accomplished, off hand, kneeling, sitting, etc. The author is advocating for this in prone and supported situations where a bi-pod and rear bag or pillow could be used.

This seems to run counter to having your body in full alignment with the barrel, and managing recoil in the vector the firing creates which should be directly rearward in alignment with the barrel.

It also appears to add another human contact and influence on the gun and the NPOA that would need to be managed.

I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on this as I continue my learning process.

 

[MarkLeupold]

Folks,

I am clearly a NOOB and in a phase of insatiable learning, have sought and received much great advice and direct hands on teaching form the Hide folks. I am attending a class with Frank up in Alaska in May and can't wait for that weekend for some extended criticism and adjusting me and my technique.A friend and similar learner came across this and shared: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html

If this has been debated here it did not show up in the searches I tried.

The author is advocating for foreend hand control which is often discussed here for positional shots where bi-pod and rear bag may not be accomplished, off hand, kneeling, sitting, etc. The author is advocating for this in prone and supported situations where a bi-pod and rear bag or pillow could be used.

This seems to run counter to having your body in full alignment with the barrel, and managing recoil in the vector the firing creates which should be directly rearward in alignment with the barrel.

It also appears to add another human contact and influence on the gun and the NPOA that would need to be managed.

I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on this as I continue my learning process.

A consideration must be made here for application. I've read the article before, and the writer is not following any of the fundamentals that are mainly advocated here on the Hide. Typically, we are looking to get straight behind the rifle, head vertical and relaxed, 90 degrees of trigger control, etc.

In his pictures within the article, he is seen following a more "typical" style of shooting. Mainly he's canted off the rifle (~15 degrees or whatever it's supposed to be) even when using a front rest. In this position, as many of us know, the rifle is going to move off target under recoil (ie. left or right), so when he breaks a shot with even a mild-mannered cartridge, the reticle comes off target and he's thinking, "Hmm, I should probably hold onto that..." It's his style of "recoil control" and it obviously works because we've done the same thing shooting traditional prone for a long time.

It's not to say it's "wrong." Frank has a video on YouTube about recoil management and he even demonstrates holding the fore-end while shooting off his steel bench. Frank is advocating that the support hand pressure must be straight back into the rifle/shoulder. He then does the same thing using a rear bag and being straight behind the rifle: no bipod hop, spotting shots. That's kind of an old video, so I don't know how much our positions have evolved since then, but the point still stands.

Back to my comment about application. The author looks to have a strong background in hunting. Typically their rifles are light, sometimes heavy recoiling. Using a rifle like that, I would probably want to give a little bit more positive control to the fore end too.

Hope this helps!

 

[seansmd]

Thanks @MarkLeupold it seems intuitive to me to keep the body in line with the recoil, NPA, solid body contact but not manipulating it.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Rifles recoil straight back and he is not straight behind the rifle.

So, he has to “add” extra shit to control his rifle.

Straight behind the rifle with pressure on the strong hand straight back into your shoulder.

Guys use this technique all the time for very large caliber rifles.

Most anyone using their hand on the forearm or on the optic are using it to mitigate the wobble, not to control the recoil.

This might be what the author was seeing and not articulating it as such.

 

[Erno86]

You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' --- by pushing the support hand straight out on the forearm while pulling in with the firing hand.

 

[Dthomas3523]

You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' --- by pushing the support hand straight out on the forearm while pulling in with the firing hand.

I’m trying to picture what you are saying, are you saying to apply downward or rearward pressure on the forend?

 

[kRcu]

You can control recoil better...if you have your support hand on the forearm locked downward at a 45 degree angle, with the thumb pointed roughly at the target.

For smaller stature people using high recoiling guns...they can use the 'push pull method' ---

I use push pull for shotgun shooting (three gun type stuff) and it helped my shooting a lot. I haven’t ever thought to try it shooting off-hand with a precision rifle. Maybe it would help stabilize a bit. Not sure. I Could try it with a sling next time I’m out.

Video for the technique:

 

[Erno86]

I’m trying to picture what you are saying, are you saying to apply downward or rearward pressure on the forend?

IMHO...both --- Pulling back into your shoulder pocket and downward pressure with with your support thumb to mitigate recoil.

 

[Dthomas3523]

IMHO...both --- Pulling back into your shoulder pocket and downward pressure with with your support thumb to mitigate recoil.

The gun shouldn’t be recoiling “up.” No matter what the caliber. If it is, it’s your body position behind the rifle not allowing the gun to recoil straight back.

Take any rifle and set it up so that nothing can influence the recoil and pull the trigger (free recoil basically). Watch what it does. Straight back every time. So anything else is shooter influenced.

If you put downward pressure, you risk messing up your natural point of aim.

If you find the rifle “hopping” and then you need to re-evaluate your setup and fundamentals.

Holding the forend down is a solution to a problem where fundamentals are the answer.

 

[Erno86]

Here's another example:

"How to Control Rifle Recoil"

 

[TonyTheTiger]

I’m trying to picture what you are saying, are you saying to apply downward or rearward pressure on the forend?

He's saying: Impeach Trump or I'm gonna throw a fit!

 

[Dthomas3523]

Here's another example:

"How to Control Rifle Recoil"

You keep posting carbine videos as examples for precision rifle......

Not being able to find videos of it being done with a bolt gun is probably a clue.

 

[Diver160651]

When I shoot a compound bow....

When I dream of walking down a runway and flagging everyone with a carbine, I think of..... Costa

None of these has much to do with PR rifle, especially off a bipod..

Oh, my.. saw the article... burn it.. or burn your phone... before you are possessed with the FUDs bs.

He has no idea what we are doing in PR..

Just made my flight to Wyoming a bit more entertaining

 

[Erno86]

When I shoot a compound bow....

When I dream of walking down a runway and flagging everyone with a carbine, I think of..... Costa

None of these has much to do with PR rifle, especially off a bipod..

Oh, my.. saw the article... burn it.. or burn your phone... before you are possessed with the FUDs bs.

He has no idea what we are doing in PR..

Just made my flight to Wyoming a bit more entertaining

Shooting off a bipod, pedestal rest, bench, prone, kneeling and sitting is a few things. And shooting offhand or in the standing position --- well...that's something else.?

 

[Erno86]

You keep posting carbine videos as examples for precision rifle......

Not being able to find videos of it being done with a bolt gun is probably a clue.

Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.

 

[MarkLeupold]

Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.

I beg to differ. The isosceles, c-clamp grip is extremely taxing and you can't stay in that position for any decent amount of time comfortably. Look at the guys actually playing in the sandbox (a kill or be killed scenario) with their vertical grips midway down a 9 inch handguard or gripping their rifle by the magwell.

Besides, the conversation here wasn't even about off hand shooting, which is what all of your examples focus on. Did you even read the OP or the article the OP cited? It's about prone shooting, advocating for fore end control in that shooting position.

 

[Erno86]

Sorry...my bad.

 

[Diver160651]

Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.

Have you ever shot a Silhouette match??????

 

[Dthomas3523]

Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

You’ve decided to take this topic to something that wasn’t even asked or discussed to prove your method works?

Holy shit.

 

[Dthomas3523]

That statement was so confusing and retarded, I feel like I’m being punked by a flat earther.

 

[Dthomas3523]

Do I really have too???

I challenge you...that any single shot, bolt, pump, semi auto, full auto tactical or field rifle hunter using the offhand/standing position, will instinctively use the Isosceles stance and C-Clamp grip --- whether he's been trained for it or not --- in any tactical or field game hunter scenario that demands a kill or be killed situation.

Gonna address this, as it so stupid, my brain hurts.

You will only use a c clamp grip in a squared or close to squared stance. This is almost always going to be in close quarter type shooting. Typical with a carbine. You won’t be doing it with a shotgun unless it’s an auto.

The minute you want to stretch out, you will blade off and start supporting the rifle from underneath while using your body to support you elbow.

And I have no fucking clue what point you are trying to prove saying people will instinctively go to a C clamp.

1: No. we have no instincts when it comes to firearms.

2: even if we did, how in the fucking fuck does that matter? If I give a 5 year old a gun, it will likely put it in it’s mouth. If I throw someone into the water who doesn’t know how to swim, they will flail around. If I put someone in a car who has not been taught how to drive, it ain’t gonna turn out well.

 

[TheGerman]

Are you asking about a bolt/precision rifle or a carbine?

Depending on the weapon, the answers are completely different.

 

[seansmd]

The original question and discussion with my friend was around proper technique for bolt precision. I was explaining the NPA and body alignment in the path of recoil. He mentioned this article. I said it runs counter to all I have read, but would post it here for feedback.

I think the responses here confirm my original suspicion.

 

[Old Justice]

I use push pull for shotgun shooting (three gun type stuff) and it helped my shooting a lot. I haven’t ever thought to try it shooting off-hand with a precision rifle. Maybe it would help stabilize a bit. Not sure. I Could try it with a sling next time I’m out.

Video for the technique:

Went to an FBI Shotgun Instructor course recently, and they taught the Haught method. It works very well.

 

[TheGerman]

Went to an FBI Shotgun Instructor course recently, and they taught the Haught method. It works very well.

I agree with this except I pull inboard with the weak hand instead of push. Trick is to not try and death grip it.

 

[Wormydog1724]

I agree with this except I pull inboard with the weak hand instead of push. Trick is to not try and death grip it.

This. When I was in college and three gun was so damn popular, about the time magpul dynamics was at its height, I was all about the exaggerated C clamp and looking ATAS. Then I took a Kurt Miller carbine course and one drill was placing the rifle (carbine) on top of our weak hand, palm open and up. Rapid shots watching our crosshairs/red dots move and resettle back on target. It was evident that the more pressure I was putting on my rifle was just making me fight myself. Letting the rifle naturally recoil, the sights settled back on target faster. I've tried to explain this to people over and over and I never can unless we're out demoing it. Sounds crazy, but sometimes crazy works.

Now that I'm dipping my toes into the precision bolt action world, I am learning more and more. I read a concept or opinion on here and then I go to my range and try it. Some of it's bullshit, some it is amazing.

I'm going to experiment with some things this evening after reading this topic.

 

[supercorndogs]

Nothing said precession rifle shooting like a VX-II and a 700 in a Hogue stock. Fud science, get in.....

The article is rubbish.

 

[Burdy]

Nothing said precession rifle shooting like a VX-II and a 700 in a Hogue stock. Fud science, get in.....

The article is rubbish.

With all due respect, you clearly have not researched Nathan Foster nor is it fair to take this article out of context with his entire book on long range shooting where he clearly identifies the advantages and disadvantages of certain holds/positions. He has taken 8,000+ game animals, many at distances beyond 1k yards and has a knowledge and database of terminal ballistics on real flesh and bone that I have not seen anywhere else. His "science" is killing at distance...and cutting apart game to determine a bullets affect from various cartridges and various ranges and points of impacts. It is this guys life's work, literally, and it shows. I would also caution against drawing assumptions about skill based upon equipment.

 

[supercorndogs]

With all due respect, you clearly have not researched Nathan Foster nor is it fair to take this article out of context with his entire book on long range shooting where he clearly identifies the advantages and disadvantages of certain holds/positions. He has taken 8,000+ game animals, many at distances beyond 1k yards and has a knowledge and database of terminal ballistics on real flesh and bone that I have not seen anywhere else. His "science" is killing at distance...and cutting apart game to determine a bullets affect from various cartridges and various ranges and points of impacts. It is this guys life's work, literally, and it shows. I would also caution against drawing assumptions about skill based upon equipment.

"Bipods are now the accepted norm for prone shooting. The advantage of a bipod is that it is immensely steady, extremely fast to set up, repeatable and allows the day bag/ pack to be used as a rear aid.

The negative aspects of bipod usage include increased vibration potentially decreasing accuracy, lower portability and injury to the forehand during recoil with the forend hand hold technique. Most bipods have hard edges that during recoil, come back and strike the mid knuckle of the index finger. On my left index knuckle, the skin is scared and calloused from test shooting rifles fitted with bipods over the years before bothering to develop better techniques.

Regardless of the difficulties or complexities involved with combining the use of a bipod with traditional forend control, the potential for loss of accuracy due to increased muzzle jump (bipod feet on hard ground), demand that forend control be regarded as a major concern."

What context should I take this in? It looks like advocating for a crutch rather than learning how to shoot with a bipod.

I see pictures from people advocating for his training behind their rifles wrong. Rifle on a bipod, and their body is angled like they are shooting prone with a sling.

What is his back ground that makes him a top level instructor? 7500 animal kills is not a long range precision skill vetting process.

What should make me think he is a master of long range precision shooting?

No, I am not going to buy one of his books to find out.

 

[Steel head]

"Bipods are now the accepted norm for prone shooting. The advantage of a bipod is that it is immensely steady, extremely fast to set up, repeatable and allows the day bag/ pack to be used as a rear aid.

The negative aspects of bipod usage include increased vibration potentially decreasing accuracy, lower portability and injury to the forehand during recoil with the forend hand hold technique. Most bipods have hard edges that during recoil, come back and strike the mid knuckle of the index finger. On my left index knuckle, the skin is scared and calloused from test shooting rifles fitted with bipods over the years before bothering to develop better techniques.

Regardless of the difficulties or complexities involved with combining the use of a bipod with traditional forend control, the potential for loss of accuracy due to increased muzzle jump (bipod feet on hard ground), demand that forend control be regarded as a major concern."

What context should I take this in? It looks like advocating for a crutch rather than learning how to shoot with a bipod.

I see pictures from people advocating for his training behind their rifles wrong. Rifle on a bipod, and their body is angled like they are shooting prone with a sling.

What is his back ground that makes him a top level instructor? 7500 animal kills is not a long range precision skill vetting process.

What should make me think he is a master of long range precision shooting?

No, I am not going to buy one of his books to find out.

This.

 

[Burdy]

Well I get that you don't want to buy the book to find out and I certainly can't scan every page nor am I willing to recite the entire book to prove my point but to each his own.

I'm not specifically advocating that his techniques are the best but personally I like to read contrarian viewpoints and try them out on my own to see what works and what does not.

A lot of the book has things in it that you would not see utilized today but explanations on why a lot of the processes used today were adopted from things such as benchrest that do not carry over into shooting moving game or shooting things that shoot back at you.

As for what qualifies anyone to be an instructor I'd like to know the rules and regulations for that. You can have all of the qualifications in the world and if you shoot like crap I don't want to learn from you.

However if you grew up in the backwoods of West Virginia and can show me how to shoot your Model 70 30-06 at 1 mile consistently you have my ears. My litmus test on who can instruct me on how to shoot long range is simply a guy that is very good at shooting long-range. That's it. I could care less what badges and accolades he has behind him. YMMV.

 

[supercorndogs]

Making a hit doesn't make someone a master. Kind of like being able to chop a board in half with their hand doesn't make someone a karate master.

 

[Burdy]

Making a hit doesn't make someone a master. Kind of like being able to chop a board in half with their hand doesn't make someone a karate master.

And if you didn't remove the word "consistently" from my text, this would have been a great reply.

 

[supercorndogs]

And if you didn't remove the word "consistently" from my text, this would have been a great reply.

I am not even sure what that is supposed to mean. "I removed from your text." I didn't remove anything from your text. I can't.

I made a statement.

It sounds like it made sense to you, but you don't want to admit it.

 

[Burdy]

I am not even sure what that is supposed to mean. "I removed from your text." I didn't remove anything from your text. I can't.

I made a statement.

It sounds like it made sense to you, but you don't want to admit it.

You win sir. I have no interest in arguing over semantics. You stated "making a hit doesn't make someone a master." I never said it did. I stated if someone "consistently" hits at distance, they have my ears. That is all. I can learn from anyone. Ever see a toddler pick up something from the floor? It's a near perfect squat, something most adults don't do correctly, but they could learn proper form from a kid who shits his pants.

I'm 95% sure you can outshoot me and I can learn from you as well.
I like reading different viewpoints, I like trying new things and in the world of shooting it seems like every 5 years what everyone considered the proper process is now old hat. If we had this shooting game mastered already there would be no reason for discussion at all.

 

[supercorndogs]

I am not trying to argue anything. i simply stated my point of view on the subject. One thing we could probably could agree on, is that I am probably not experienced enough to be calling anything he does or writes rubbish. I am no body, and i make comments on things i probably shouldn't sometimes.

Learning to squat properly is about un-learning all the bad fundamentals we have picked up inadvertently. IMO Shooting is very much the same, un-learning all the bad stuff I taught myself was frustrating at first. It started to pay off though. IMO

 

[gunsnjeeps]

Folks,

I am clearly a NOOB and in a phase of insatiable learning, have sought and received much great advice and direct hands on teaching form the Hide folks. I am attending a class with Frank up in Alaska in May and can't wait for that weekend for some extended criticism and adjusting me and my technique.A friend and similar learner came across this and shared: https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Hold+that+Forend.html

If this has been debated here it did not show up in the searches I tried.

The author is advocating for foreend hand control which is often discussed here for positional shots where bi-pod and rear bag may not be accomplished, off hand, kneeling, sitting, etc. The author is advocating for this in prone and supported situations where a bi-pod and rear bag or pillow could be used.

This seems to run counter to having your body in full alignment with the barrel, and managing recoil in the vector the firing creates which should be directly rearward in alignment with the barrel.

It also appears to add another human contact and influence on the gun and the NPOA that would need to be managed.

I would be very interested in hearing thoughts on this as I continue my learning process.

How was the May class?

I see a lot of "discussion" about position and equipment. We all shoot somewhat different games. Up until last year 600 yards without a scope was common, my first 1000 yard match was also iron sight.

Point is we do what works. Nathan Foster has applied long range rifle builds and long range rifle shooting to hunting. Since he doesn't shoot PRS that must make him a fud.

NPA is based as much on firing point and body type as much as much as shooting position.

I can't shoot for shit on a bipod not so bad off a rest. Give me a sling, jacket, and mat and at 600 to a 1000 I'll give you 2.5 - 3 MOA with a few outliers in 20 rounds. Used to be better 15 years ago when I didn't have a 40 hour a week job.

Point is we're going to learn a basic technique for the shooting your going to do. After you learn the technique and position you'll find what works best for you. Coming back to fore arm control, in prone I barely hold the fore grip. I use sling tension to hold the rifle into my shoulder and into the vee of my left hand. I found that grip tension was a variable and a relaxed grip was more consistent.

You will also figure out the off call shots that tell you what you did wrong.

 

[seansmd]

The May class was fantastic! What caught me with the article and the post is that it deviated from the recoil and having your body in alignment with the recoil.

I think Frank and other peers ex military are focused on these refined fundamentals, which have changed and evolved. Frank slightly so and Marc definitely so are not competition focused. It's all fundamentals, starting prone, and building off there and then moving to other shooting positions, supported and unsupported.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I haven't looked into Frank's class. I have seen a class in North Carolina that looked interesting. I think that fundamentals from one style can cross into others. Unfortunately time for classes, shooting, and work aren't always compatible.

 

[seansmd]

That Alaska class is as much a vacation, great environment, you all stay at the same lodge. I had as much fun after shooting as during.

 

[smoothy8500]

I see a lot of "discussion" about position and equipment.

Give me a sling, jacket, and mat and at 600 to a 1000 I'll give you 2.5 - 3 MOA with a few outliers in 20 rounds.

After years of shooting Palma and Service Rifle in prone, switching to shooting off a bipod in prone has been a difficult transition for me. It feels like the butt is in the wrong part of the shoulder and I keep wanting to hike up my leg.

 

[gunsnjeeps]

I want to learn the position but I have a hard enough time getting time to shoot lately. I lose 3 to 6 match weekends to work related travel a year.