forster micro seating die = :(

B

black_ump

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 16, 2007
1,054
0
40
erie,pa 16334
#1
well I though i would load up some 30cal 175 smk's, so i got my brass out ( it was pre prepped ) and got out the last 15 smk bullets i have in 175 gr.

i set the die up for an oal of 2.18 from the o-give ( 2.8 oal ) and once it was set i pulled the bullet and charged the casing (i had the die previously set up for 155 smk's), after i charged the exact same case and loaded the exact same round the o-give oal was 2.178 WTF !!!

So I loaded another round 2.179, ok so I load another and 2.1805.. the next 3 where all 2.178 so i make an adjustment and the following round is 2.185.

I had something slightly like this happen with the 155's how ever this is crazy, if i move the die down ( according to the hash marks ) .001 it moves .002 or even .005 at times.

out of 10 loaded rounds only 4 came out at 2.18 and the rest where all under by at least .001

I dont get this at all, why is the die not accurate in its movements ?

my guess on the rounds not being the right oal could be due to the fact i never measured from ogive to base maybe the bullets are off in that department. Still pissy though
 
#2
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my guess on the rounds not being the right oal could be due to the fact i never measured from ogive to base maybe the bullets are off in that department. </div></div>

You just answered your own question. Measure a handful of bullets and note the variance in length. That is why you have to measure from the ogive and not the bullet tip.
 
#3
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I don't understand first you said you were measuring at the ogive and then you said you weren't.

I am also having problems with the same die and I am measuring at the ogive.
 
#4
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: thefitter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't understand first you said you were measuring at the ogive and then you said you weren't.

I am also having problems with the same die and I am measuring at the ogive.

</div></div>


iam measuring from ogive to bottom of casing not from the ogive to bottom of bullet.

sorry for the confusing i was thinking faster then i could type.

I took my die apart and cleaned it and just set it up, and again i move it .002 down and it might move down .002 and then it might only move .0005 its really any ones guess.

maybe i should get a hold of forster about this.

lesson to every one here, buy the redding, i knew i should have got that one instead
 
#5
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: treebasher</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">my guess on the rounds not being the right oal could be due to the fact i never measured from ogive to base maybe the bullets are off in that department. </div></div>

You just answered your own question. Measure a handful of bullets and note the variance in length. That is why you have to measure from the ogive and not the bullet tip.

</div></div>

i though about this to begin with, at first i didnt think it would make much of a difference, i guess it does.

does any one know the mean # for 175 smk's ogive to bullet base ?
 
#6
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I haven't seen the same issue with you, however I have noticed that when I turn the die according to the marks it doesn't move as much as I would expect. For example I have move the diet .010 and the bullet only change by .0085. I have not given up on it yet, but I have never had this problem with my Redding micrometer die. However, at least once I get mine set up it is consistent at the ogive. Unfortunately, your seems to be moving.
 
#8
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I set mine and it's good for about 4 rounds and then it walks.

If the die is seating off the ogive relative to the base of the case and we are measuring from the ogive to the base of the case then individual bullets should not change how the die seats. Unless the actual shape of the bullet changes. I think... right?
 
#9
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I have used the Forester Ultra Micro Seater with 300WM, .243, and .308 for some time and never had any issues. You might have a bad one. I would get ahold of them.
 
#10
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

ok here is what i have found out, obviously measuring from ogive to base makes a difference, and i just seen that first hand.

I honestly didnt think that made much of a difference but when your playing a game of .001 then it does.

here are some questions i have now.

if your ogive to bullet base mean is .645 but you get a bullet that is .6448 do you bump your die to seat .002 higher ?

whats the normal tolerance on bullets example if my mean is .645 should i let the tolerance go +/- .002 ? example 0 being .645 then .647 and .643 ?

also whats your tolerance on ogive to base of casing ? if my mean is 2.8 ( since i run them in a g3 mag ) or 2.183 ogive to casing base what would the tolerance be before i notice a difference in accuracy/pressure would .001 deeper or higher show me a difference in pressure or would it be more like .005 ?
 
#11
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<span style="font-style: italic">"lesson to every one here, buy the redding, i knew i should have got that one instead"</span>

I can't help but wonder if you've actually measured the results of a Redding seater in the same press amd using the same bullets to compare to your Forster.

1. You are likely causing 2-4 thou variation in how much pressure you put on the press lever and how long you hold it. That matters.

2. The normal variation in bullets will easily vary 3-5 thou.

Attempts to hold seating to a thou at the meplat or ogive with a common press and mass produced bullets is hopeless. Changing the brand of your seating die won't make those differences go away.
 
#12
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't measure bullet base to ogive. When I start using a box of SMK's, I measure bullet base to tip and use the the longest of the batch to set the seating die for especially if max COL is an issue. Once you've set for the longest within that box, all the others will then fit through the magazine. You should find very little variance from cartridge base to bullet ogive once the seater die is set. You will find some since these bullets aren't perfectly machined solids turned on a CNC machine. Even that process can show tolerances as tooling starts to wear. You may also get some variance just from the linkage in your press. Remember, you're not camming over and removing all slop from the linkage like when you're full length resizing. </div></div>

so let me get this straight, I buy a brand new box of 175 smk's i sort all the longest once out from tip to base set my die based off the longest and then just load the rest off that ?

their could be bullets that are .005 smaller then the longest and surly that could add in higher pressures, and i was also told by some one on here that the lands dont care where the tip is it was the ogive depth that ment every thing.

iam in no way calling you out, as you give me good advice.. esp since i have to print you those groups this summer
wink.gif
just trying to make sure i understand you
 
#13
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fuzzball</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-style: italic">"lesson to every one here, buy the redding, i knew i should have got that one instead"</span>

I can't help but wonder if you've actually measured the results of a Redding seater in the same press amd using the same bullets to compare to your Forster.

1. You are likely causing 2-4 thou variation in how much pressure you put on the press lever and how long you hold it. That matters.

<span style="color: #3366FF">I don't understand this at all. The press stops at the same spot every time. And how does holding it longer change anything?</span>
2. The normal variation in bullets will easily vary 3-5 thou.

Attempts to hold seating to a thou at the meplat or ogive with a common press and mass produced bullets is hopeless. Changing the brand of your seating die won't make those differences go away.
</div></div>
 
#14
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

i dont push down with any huge amount of force i just push down until the ram stops and then thats it.

ok so i will take your advice, so your saying its ok i hold at +/- .005 from where i want to be ( 2.8 )?

i was a machinist so its a bad habit to want to be at like +/- .0005 or at least +/- .001

well now that i have established some good quality control questions all i have to do now is see whats up with my forster die
 
#15
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

i ment ogive to bottom of the casing iam shooting for 2.183 what should i allow in my quality control ? +/- what ?

on my forster die the ram can only go up so far and then the "false chamber" bottoms out so to speak at least thats how it seams to me

thanks for all the info badshot... it definitely rocks
 
#16
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't know what to tell you about about the +/- for your 2.183. I've never measured FGMM or any other factory match to see how close their tolerances are. I've never really measured any of my handloads either. Expect some variance cause you'll never get perfection.

As far as your Forester seating die goes, follow the instructions and don't force the sliding die chamber up into the die body too far or you will be over compressing the return spring. </div></div>

i guess i will set a +/- .003 for my ammo i am trying to get some really good match ammo loaded.

i think the die is made so when you seat the round the sliding chamber moves up with the ram and then slides back down with the ram, not sure how you could over compress it.

i do keep some light lube in their to help it slide up and down easy though
 
#17
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Read the instructions http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_im...Seater_Die.pdf. If you set the die up incorrectly, you can force the die chamber, part P-30 up into the die to the point that you over compress the return spring, part M-30. The sliding die chamber is designed to move up and down with the ram but if you adjust the die body too far down, you will push the sliding die chamber too far up into the die and over compress the spring. That's what's happening when you feel the "false chamber" bottoming out. You very well could be causing seating depth problems right there. Re-adjust your die as per the instructions. </div></div>


let me rephrase.... when i seat the round the sliding chamber moves up the round is seated then then the ram moves down, i never touch the die body with shell holder.

i didnt mean bottoming out as in the sliding chamber is up inside the die so far it can no longer go any more. sorry for the lack of communication
 
#18
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

ill check out the instructions iam pretty sure i have like maybe 1/4" of the sliding chamber showing, i know it doesnt move much when i seat a bullet and has plenty of travel still left if say i moved the bullet seater up into the die body


iam checking out them instructions now
 
#19
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds like you have it adjusted correctly then. If you screw the die body down too far, you will feel the return spring bind and over compress. </div></div>

absolutely not, i set this up like any other die pretty much with a few exceptions, maybe it was just my stupid luck that i set the die up properly.

i read the instructions and i seem in the clear as far as the die being set up, i can almost swear that ogive to to bullet base or length of bearing surface was my issue but this was the first time i have ever sorted bullets and then used them.
 
#20
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

actually your right, i just checked mine and their is only about like 1/16 or a hair more showing when the sliding chamber is pressed up into the die body.... i think i have it set up properly, why it will not go .001 when i move it that far is beyond me.

maybe forsters reply will give me some insight, maybe i set that section up improperly...

i set a round in that is used for a guide... back the seating stem off set the mic to 0 then put the seating stem down untill it touches the round... tighten the seating stem lock and iam done right ?

would you have a custom sliding chamber made for winchester cases ? what about a custom seating stem for the 175 smk bullet ?
 
#21
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I think too much thought is being put into this.

Just my 0.02

With such minute variations how can one be sure it IS due to the die and not the bullets, brass, projectiles, slight angle of the bullet in the comparitor when measuring etc...

Are the results downrange really that bad that the variation is causitive?
 
#22
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think too much thought is being put into this.

Just my 0.02

With such minute variations how can one be sure it IS due to the die and not the bullets, brass, projectiles, slight angle of the bullet in the comparitor when measuring etc...

Are the results downrange really that bad that the variation is causitive? </div></div>


i have 3 + years using mic's and calipers for a living, iam almost 110% sure iam straight when measuring.

and i did state it could be due to ogive to base of bullet or bearing surface length.

i will just measure all my bullets or do what b/s was telling me to do in the above post, my big peev now is why is the die not adjusting in .001 increments like it is supposed to do ?
 
#24
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

1. You are likely causing 2-4 thou variation in how much pressure you put on the press lever and how long you hold it. That matters.

I don't understand this at all. The press stops at the same spot every time. And how does holding it longer change anything?

Guess it does seem a bit odd, at first. Especially if you think a press and linkages are totally rigid; they aren't.

Any press has some spring, how much depends on how hard we press down.

The lubricants in the linkages squishes around the pins under compression and the faster/harder you hold the pressure affects how far up the ram travels, and the viscosity of the lube is a factor too.

None of it's much but a thou or two or three isn't much either.
 
#25
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

I do not think it is the Die. I have a Redding ant it did the same thing. WTF !! Make sure that your Necks are clean for one. When I started Annealing the brass is when I could seat a bullet and I had very little to 0 OAL problems. If you have ever seated a projo in a case that had been annealed properly you would notice it is smooth as butter when seating.I have several sets of Redding dies and Forster. I prefer the latter as I can get The die custom honed die for $12. I woud try to get a small amount of brass annealed and then see what you get on your OAL. Mike
 
#28
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do not overtigthen Part #28 (the retaining screw). </div></div>


my parts diagram says nothing about a part #28
 
#32
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You asked this question before and I told you yes. There's plenty of travel in the seating stem. </div></div>


hmm sorry i dont remember asking this.


thats cool though, thanks for the heads up
 
#33
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

Several things to think about besides the die! How do you prep the brass? Do you polish the inside of the neck with 0000steel wool on a drill driven brush? Really cut down on seating friction. Lube the inside of the necks with Lock Ease or similiar graphite lube? Ditto on the friction. Moly or HxBN lubed bullets make a difference too. How long has it been since the brass was prepped? Dimensions change a bit over time with work hardening and relaxing. Differences in neck tension and drag can easily make that much difference in seating depth. Is the load compressed? If so keeping the handle down the same length of time will help settle the bullet into place. A compressed load can push the bullet out a bit differently each time. JMHO
 
#34
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badshot308</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Before you get into annealing the brass, consider the platform you're shooting the ammo out of. I'm not familiar with the H&K MSG-90 action, but if it's like most military autoloaders, it pushes the rounds up the feed ramps rather violently compared to what you would be doing with a bolt action. LARMIKE is probably correct in that annealing the case necks can help with more consistant seating depth. Annealing softens the brass and gives a more consistent neck tension. However, with the platform you're using , you may have issues with not enough neck tension and bullet set back during the feeding cycle. If you run into that problem after annealing, you can reduce the diameter of your expander ball in the sizing die to increase your neck tension. Redding also makes full length bushing dies that uses their interchangeable bushings to give you more control over your neck sizing and tension. </div></div>


i do crimp the round after it has been loaded, so if i annealed the brass wouldnt the crimp keep the bullet from moving when it is loaded ?


this is how i prep brass:

full length size with a lee fl size die, i lube with lee lube and use qtip to get lube in the neck for sizing

after every round has been sized i wash the lube off and then tumble... after its tumbled clean i debur the flash hole on both in and out side then i square the primer pocket

after all that i put the brass on my my forster trimmer with 3 way trimming head and trim to 2.005 then i prime them all and set them aside while i wait to load and test

i dont weight my cases, but i do sort them some of them get dings in the shoulders i set them aside, and i only "match" load any brass that has no dings in the shoulders and i will only accept brass that has vary vary slight dings in the body of the case. the msg90/g3 extraction is pretty aggressive, the forward assist housing does act as a brass deflector but in return it does ding the casings so i do spend a lot of time sorting, all the ones i feel are junk i use them for practice
 
#37
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for the heads up, can i anneal brass after it has been trimmed and prepped ? </div></div>

Not unless you want some Mini Grenades. So the answer is NO.
 
#38
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LARMIKE</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for the heads up, can i anneal brass after it has been trimmed and prepped ? </div></div>

Not unless you want some Mini Grenades. So the answer is NO. </div></div>


i didnt mean after it was loaded, my guess is annealing the brass will make it grow so its best to do it first then trim
 
#39
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whats the stuff you can get at homedepot that you paint on the inside of the neck and when it reaches temps it turns clear ?

id like to get some and go threw my necks </div></div>

Tempilaq is what your after.
 
#40
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: vman</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">whats the stuff you can get at homedepot that you paint on the inside of the neck and when it reaches temps it turns clear ?

id like to get some and go threw my necks </div></div>

Tempilaq is what your after. </div></div>


thanks vman
 
#42
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: former naval person</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you are going to crimp...forget the tolerances. You'll have enough accuracy disturbances that the OAL won't matter. JMHO </div></div>


thanks
 
#43
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do not overtigthen Part #28 (the retaining screw). </div></div>


my parts diagram says nothing about a part #28 </div></div>

page 3, photo 3 below. Also, see the three paragraphs to the right of the pic. It is easy to overtigthen that Part #28 (the retaining screw) and as they suggest, Forster cross bolt locking rings work best.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_images/catalog19938/pages/files/Co-Ax_Reloading_Press.pdf
 
#44
Re: forster micro seating die = :(

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do not overtigthen Part #28 (the retaining screw). </div></div>


my parts diagram says nothing about a part #28 </div></div>

page 3, photo 3 below. Also, see the three paragraphs to the right of the pic. It is easy to overtigthen that Part #28 (the retaining screw) and as they suggest, Forster cross bolt locking rings work best.

http://www.forsterproducts.com/client_images/catalog19938/pages/files/Co-Ax_Reloading_Press.pdf </div></div>

iam not useing a forster press iam useing a lee breach lock challenger
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Kangbeef
Need some guidance and advice for seating
Replies
7
Views
285
Kangbeef
Kangbeef
T
Seating Depth / Lands Measurement Way Off?
Replies
9
Views
514
_Thor_
T
Kangbeef
Thoughts on forester FL bushing die kit
Replies
6
Views
172
Kangbeef
Kangbeef
Cardboard Assassin
9mm Micrometer Die Options - Automated Progressive Compatible
Replies
6
Views
285
Cascade Hemi
C
Basic user
Almost no neck tension on new brass?
Replies
23
Views
1K
Basic user
Basic user
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts