I wasn't expecting much. But I must admit the brands/ types I thought would do well did not! I found this really enlightening.
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Freezing rifle test - Garand Thumb
- Thread starter Jumper
- Start date
I wasn't expecting much. But I must admit the brands/ types I thought would do well did not! I found this really enlightening.
I didn't expect the magazine springs to freeze causing failures.
When I saw the first time he sprinkled just a little bit of water on them, I thought, ok this is just an advertisement disguised as a "test" video. Then the HK416 failed! It only got worse from there.
Did everyone hear that? The deafening sound of boomers clutching their pearls when the M1A failed to fire?
JK
I have an M1A and fully expected it to perform. So disappointed.
Good video.
JK
I have an M1A and fully expected it to perform. So disappointed.
Good video.
I've done time in sub freezing temps and the key is not go in and out with your rig as the warm creates condensation that freezes and to use little to no lube (very little). Also, small parts matter, there is a reason parts have a tdp standard and small parts absolutely are impacted by cold in ways you wouldn't imagine.
Not surprised that the AK's did well. Those brutal ass Russian winters are not for the faint of heart.
- Nov 3, 2010
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There’s a reason your weapon stays outside all the time when training in the artic. We never ever kept our M4s in the ten man tents when we set them up in Alaska.
Garand Thumb: "How will the AK stand up to subzero conditions?"
Russia: "What, you think this is tropical getaway, blin?"
Some of the failures seemed to be platform specific (could have happened to any other make/mfr) such as the ejection port failing to open all the way, resulting in a failure to eject. Could have happened to the KAC just as easily as to the HK. Just (un)luck of the draw for the one it happened to.
Those overnight fire watch shifts were super fun, huh?
It's going to be freak of nature situation if you find me in weather like that. Best case scenario is I go to the cold for a vacation.
this 'test' is a particularly bad one. All he is doing is literally freezing parts together with the water dump. It's entertaining at best
There is a russian cat that does a good job of explaining various AR tolerances vs AK such as firing pin channel, ambi controls (awful for artic conditions and others), I'll see if I can find it.
I'm still kinda wondering what exactly went wrong with the M14. I'd like to see that one in more detail. Not that I think it'll change anything, I just want to know what specifically failed.Did everyone hear that? The deafening sound of boomers clutching their pearls when the M1A failed to fire?
JK
I have an M1A and fully expected it to perform. So disappointed.
Good video.
When a video starts out with more sponsors than NASCAR, it's purely entertainment.
I saw a similar (just cold) comparison of the LMT and the BRN 180. Both DI guns but the 180 failed. Kinda sad I didn't see these in this test.
Also around here I could see a sleet situation just before dark turning into something like this test. I had a bergara fail to fire while hunting but there was snow packed into the back of the bolt. Fun test.
Also around here I could see a sleet situation just before dark turning into something like this test. I had a bergara fail to fire while hunting but there was snow packed into the back of the bolt. Fun test.
you'd put your weapon in cover here so I think the cold water to freeze part is overkill to be honest. I think if you pour water on any tool and then let it freeze you're going to have issues. none of this surprises me
Thats what I was thinking. Pretty much what happened to all of them in one orifice or another.
Open action weapons are prime candidates for freezing up under those test conditions.Did everyone hear that? The deafening sound of boomers clutching their pearls when the M1A failed to fire?
JK
I have an M1A and fully expected it to perform. So disappointed.
Good video.
We did the same thing in Norway (Tromso area), though I don't think the inside of tents got much above freezing in any case.
It was so cold we kept our vehicles running 24/7.
- Nov 3, 2010
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- 20,202
Someone was always up manning the yuke stove anyway. They got beat senseless if they messed it up and we got cold
I thought it was a fun video, but not sure I would put much thought into it. As long as you can keep an eye out for any wet bandits that sneak into you outdoor camp site at zero degrees and poor jugs of water directly into your rifle, most of these rifles would have no issues with normal cold weather use.
Use appropriate lube, limit thermal shock but not bring weapons into and out of heated areas.
For his next test, hey should take one of the Ak's, and get a 5 gallon home depot bucket, fill it half way up with water, tossing the folded AK, let it sit over night folded and see how it does in the morning.
Use appropriate lube, limit thermal shock but not bring weapons into and out of heated areas.
For his next test, hey should take one of the Ak's, and get a 5 gallon home depot bucket, fill it half way up with water, tossing the folded AK, let it sit over night folded and see how it does in the morning.
I’ve spent many years shooting in the sub-arctic and Arctic with the Finns from 2005-2016, doing high-volume, multi-day courses in far colder conditions than that nice spring day in the video. Every time I flew back to the US in the dead of winter from up there, as we broke through the clouds landing in CO or UT, it would be the first time I had seen the sun since leaving the US. I was there for a whole year from 2005-2006, then went back 3-4 times per year up until 2016.
For some reason, every multi-day course in the winter we did was around -30˚C (-22˚F) as the norm. I never saw the ground in the winter, just ice and snow piled up pretty high on any of the range complexes we used, as well as into the forest for overnight treks on skis with rucks.
I’ve seen hundreds of various types of AKs, Rks, AR-15s, some weird frankenguns, at least one FNC, Hk33s, Hk53s, MP5s, AR-10s, and one Bushmaster ACR come though those courses.
Never once did I see any weapon soaked in water and left to freeze. The Finns said it’s SOP to store rifles outside of heated tents in the winter for the reasons mentioned by some posters above. Finnish officers built the US Army Arctic Warfare training program back in the 1950s after the war when they left Finland once the Soviets put pressure on Finland internally, so the actual war-fighters who were continuing a contingency plan for follow-on Soviet invasion were arrested and thrown in prison. (Lauri Törni was one such officer, arrested and imprisoned multiple times in Finland after his service, even as a Mannerheim Cross recipient (equivalent of CMH). Many Finnish officers had already escaped to the US and joined the US Army under the Lodge Act, which allowed ex-pats to get US citizenship after faithful military service. Törni ended up in the US and was helped into the Army by several Finnish officers who had already come over. In US service, he was known as Larry Thorne.)
This is a Russian overwhite set that copied the new Finnish Defense Forces M05 pattern. Russians make copies of all their neighbors’ camo patterns so their special troops units can conduct false flag operations. These Russian-made overwhites are utter garbage with no breathability by the way. They accumulate your perspiration and coat the insides with a layer of moisture, which is not good in -30˚C conditions as you would imagine. The Finnish M05 overwhite/digitial snow camo uniforms are actually well-made with breathable fabric.
Anyway, I just have never seen rifles in that condition at any time over the past 3 decades of taking issued or military rifles into extreme cold conditions. Korea was really freaking cold and wet, and the most I saw there was that frosty snowflake texture that would accumulate on the surface of our weapons.
As far as reliability goes, the Rk62, Rk92, and Rk95 Finnish rifles fed Finnish brass-cased 7.62x39 were extremely reliable, followed by TDP-built AR-15s. 11.5” AR-15s did extremely well over many years of high volume arctic condition courses in Finland. I don’t ever recall seeing one of the guys with 11.5”-14.5" ARs having any malfunctions.
High volume courses are really hard on a firearm in -30˚C conditions because you take a rifle, magazines, and ammo that are at that temperature, then run it hot in volume through various drills, then it immediately drops back to ambient temp quite rapidly. It really illustrates how far we’ve come with the metallurgy and QC on TDP-built rifles.
Vismod rifles like Bushmaster and DIY builds with questionable parts are the only ARs I saw that occasionally malfunctioned. Arsenal AKs seemed to malfunction more than anything else in those courses, both in extreme cold and the middle of summer. Malfs I specifically recall with the AKs were FTExtract/double feed shooting Russian steel case ammo.
If I was going into the arctic and had that whole assortment of blasters to choose from, I would immediately reach for a properly-built 11.5” or 12.5” AR-15 carbine. I would stay away from skeletonized hammers. They actually use generous lube of varying types. A good buddy of mine said they were issued WD40 in the Finnish Army with their Rks, but I’m not sure what they do now.
I never saw a selector or ejection port door seize up on any AR-15s, AKs, or the articulating cover on the FNC.
Some of the Finns who scheduled and conducted a lot of their training were keeping records of what guns actually experienced malfunctions, what type of malfunctions, ammo, magazines, etc. over several years when I started working with them. From many years of their records at that time, it seemed that Arsenal AKs and Bushmasters had about the same level of reliability (there were a lot of Bushmasters imported into Finland that they were using, after having been run through Riihimäki proof-testing facility and given proof stamps on the bolts and barrels after successful containment of proof-test loads).
My 2 cents anyway.
For some reason, every multi-day course in the winter we did was around -30˚C (-22˚F) as the norm. I never saw the ground in the winter, just ice and snow piled up pretty high on any of the range complexes we used, as well as into the forest for overnight treks on skis with rucks.
I’ve seen hundreds of various types of AKs, Rks, AR-15s, some weird frankenguns, at least one FNC, Hk33s, Hk53s, MP5s, AR-10s, and one Bushmaster ACR come though those courses.
Never once did I see any weapon soaked in water and left to freeze. The Finns said it’s SOP to store rifles outside of heated tents in the winter for the reasons mentioned by some posters above. Finnish officers built the US Army Arctic Warfare training program back in the 1950s after the war when they left Finland once the Soviets put pressure on Finland internally, so the actual war-fighters who were continuing a contingency plan for follow-on Soviet invasion were arrested and thrown in prison. (Lauri Törni was one such officer, arrested and imprisoned multiple times in Finland after his service, even as a Mannerheim Cross recipient (equivalent of CMH). Many Finnish officers had already escaped to the US and joined the US Army under the Lodge Act, which allowed ex-pats to get US citizenship after faithful military service. Törni ended up in the US and was helped into the Army by several Finnish officers who had already come over. In US service, he was known as Larry Thorne.)
This is a Russian overwhite set that copied the new Finnish Defense Forces M05 pattern. Russians make copies of all their neighbors’ camo patterns so their special troops units can conduct false flag operations. These Russian-made overwhites are utter garbage with no breathability by the way. They accumulate your perspiration and coat the insides with a layer of moisture, which is not good in -30˚C conditions as you would imagine. The Finnish M05 overwhite/digitial snow camo uniforms are actually well-made with breathable fabric.
Anyway, I just have never seen rifles in that condition at any time over the past 3 decades of taking issued or military rifles into extreme cold conditions. Korea was really freaking cold and wet, and the most I saw there was that frosty snowflake texture that would accumulate on the surface of our weapons.
As far as reliability goes, the Rk62, Rk92, and Rk95 Finnish rifles fed Finnish brass-cased 7.62x39 were extremely reliable, followed by TDP-built AR-15s. 11.5” AR-15s did extremely well over many years of high volume arctic condition courses in Finland. I don’t ever recall seeing one of the guys with 11.5”-14.5" ARs having any malfunctions.
High volume courses are really hard on a firearm in -30˚C conditions because you take a rifle, magazines, and ammo that are at that temperature, then run it hot in volume through various drills, then it immediately drops back to ambient temp quite rapidly. It really illustrates how far we’ve come with the metallurgy and QC on TDP-built rifles.
Vismod rifles like Bushmaster and DIY builds with questionable parts are the only ARs I saw that occasionally malfunctioned. Arsenal AKs seemed to malfunction more than anything else in those courses, both in extreme cold and the middle of summer. Malfs I specifically recall with the AKs were FTExtract/double feed shooting Russian steel case ammo.
If I was going into the arctic and had that whole assortment of blasters to choose from, I would immediately reach for a properly-built 11.5” or 12.5” AR-15 carbine. I would stay away from skeletonized hammers. They actually use generous lube of varying types. A good buddy of mine said they were issued WD40 in the Finnish Army with their Rks, but I’m not sure what they do now.
I never saw a selector or ejection port door seize up on any AR-15s, AKs, or the articulating cover on the FNC.
Some of the Finns who scheduled and conducted a lot of their training were keeping records of what guns actually experienced malfunctions, what type of malfunctions, ammo, magazines, etc. over several years when I started working with them. From many years of their records at that time, it seemed that Arsenal AKs and Bushmasters had about the same level of reliability (there were a lot of Bushmasters imported into Finland that they were using, after having been run through Riihimäki proof-testing facility and given proof stamps on the bolts and barrels after successful containment of proof-test loads).
My 2 cents anyway.
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I’d be more focused on what kinds of boots, socks, base layer, quick-don/doff mid layers, fleece, outer layer shells, glove types, balaclavas, and hats you’re wearing.
For shooting in real extreme cold, you need to figure out what kinds of gloves you’ll be using that allow trigger finger manipulation. I’ve tried all kinds of hunter’s mittens, usually worn over my Nomex.
I also run regular winter DM and LR courses in the mountains here in Utah, and have seen more corrosion issues on steel fasteners in scope rings and handguard fasteners on AR-10s and AR-15s. Hasn’t affected performance, but just looks nasty. I like my fastener heads Cerakoted for that reason. I’ve noticed that whatever NightForce uses on their fasteners, at least on my Unimount, doesn’t seem to suffer the same effects as most other scope mounts. These are quirks that most manufacturers would never think of or see in their testing.
I also had one guy shear his bolt handle off his TRG in .308 in Feb, 2015, which was interesting. I had a loaner rifle for him in .308 provided by another hide member.
Winter in the mountains in UT isn’t as cold as it gets in Finland unless you get wind chill, but you still have the sun. Whatever sunlight that made it through the clouds from maybe 0930-1630 in Finland is gone the rest of the “day” in the sub arctic.
You guys that live up in Alaska and Canada know what that’s all about. Some of the Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota folks see pretty bad low temps as well.
Anytime we get snow in Utah, I just tell people that are shivering, “Tis a nice spring day in Finland."
For shooting in real extreme cold, you need to figure out what kinds of gloves you’ll be using that allow trigger finger manipulation. I’ve tried all kinds of hunter’s mittens, usually worn over my Nomex.
I also run regular winter DM and LR courses in the mountains here in Utah, and have seen more corrosion issues on steel fasteners in scope rings and handguard fasteners on AR-10s and AR-15s. Hasn’t affected performance, but just looks nasty. I like my fastener heads Cerakoted for that reason. I’ve noticed that whatever NightForce uses on their fasteners, at least on my Unimount, doesn’t seem to suffer the same effects as most other scope mounts. These are quirks that most manufacturers would never think of or see in their testing.
I also had one guy shear his bolt handle off his TRG in .308 in Feb, 2015, which was interesting. I had a loaner rifle for him in .308 provided by another hide member.
Winter in the mountains in UT isn’t as cold as it gets in Finland unless you get wind chill, but you still have the sun. Whatever sunlight that made it through the clouds from maybe 0930-1630 in Finland is gone the rest of the “day” in the sub arctic.
You guys that live up in Alaska and Canada know what that’s all about. Some of the Wyoming, Wisconsin, and Minnesota folks see pretty bad low temps as well.
Anytime we get snow in Utah, I just tell people that are shivering, “Tis a nice spring day in Finland."
One thing I have had fail on me in true extreme cold in Finland was my first gen polymer MIAD grip. I was shooting high-volume over a 3-day course, suppressed with an Ase Utra suppressor on the end of a Rock River 16” MLGS rifle.
Noticed my grip felt loose, looked down and saw a crack up at the top of the grip. The little tabs that retained the backstrap and grip core insert were gone-broken off.
I went back to the barracks to get a spare grip I had in my Pelican case. When I pulled the MIAD (1st gen had a conical screw head, which acted like a lever to crack the grip), the selector detent dropped out and was fizzling with corrosion.
Turns out RRA used a really cheap LPK with zinc-plated detents, rather than Cadmium like the Mil-STD Technical Data Package calls for, which I didn’t know at the time. It wasn’t until I spoke with Bill A. about this years later and he looked up the specs in the TDP where Cadmium was called out for coating on detents.
The more you actually put guns in extreme conditions, the more you learn how different a TDP gun is than the vismod-15s. I’m not talking about that silly list people had years ago either where they were focused on barrel steel, parkerizing under the FSB, and crap like that.
The main thing I and others don’t like about the TDP that should be eliminated is the HPT proof load, non-destructive testing on bolts. That’s an ill-advised thing to do to both the AR-15 and M110 bolts. I’ve confirmed that with the Colt Canada/Diemaco and KAC engineers.
Noticed my grip felt loose, looked down and saw a crack up at the top of the grip. The little tabs that retained the backstrap and grip core insert were gone-broken off.
I went back to the barracks to get a spare grip I had in my Pelican case. When I pulled the MIAD (1st gen had a conical screw head, which acted like a lever to crack the grip), the selector detent dropped out and was fizzling with corrosion.
Turns out RRA used a really cheap LPK with zinc-plated detents, rather than Cadmium like the Mil-STD Technical Data Package calls for, which I didn’t know at the time. It wasn’t until I spoke with Bill A. about this years later and he looked up the specs in the TDP where Cadmium was called out for coating on detents.
The more you actually put guns in extreme conditions, the more you learn how different a TDP gun is than the vismod-15s. I’m not talking about that silly list people had years ago either where they were focused on barrel steel, parkerizing under the FSB, and crap like that.
The main thing I and others don’t like about the TDP that should be eliminated is the HPT proof load, non-destructive testing on bolts. That’s an ill-advised thing to do to both the AR-15 and M110 bolts. I’ve confirmed that with the Colt Canada/Diemaco and KAC engineers.
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My bad.... I left my computer prior to finishing my post, meanwhile he was answering. ( " New post's" since I finished mine ) and I always appreciate LRRPF52's advice and experience.
LRRPF52 offers a wealth of valuable info... every time he posts.
Snow in extreme cold doesn’t feel like the soft stuff you make snowballs out of. Its’ very crystalline, crunchy, with multiple days/weeks/months of dew cycle layer freezes on it.
When you spend time overnight in such conditions, you’ll see very thin layers of opaque snowflake-looking patterns frozen to the surface of any mad-made metallics, which comes from moisture in the air freezing to the surface. Because it’s so thin and barely-noticeable, it doesn’t seem to affect any mechanical functions of the weapons. One rule of thumb when spending time overnight in these conditions is to break the seal of the cartridge in the chamber as part of Stand-To (before dawn preparations to avoid being attacked unexpectedly).
I have seen blanks seize in chambers in extreme cold in Korea and maybe in Virginia in the mid-1990s, especially in filthy guns that had been fired a lot doing OPFOR.
The Swiss, Germans, and Swedes figured out long ago that a nice electrostatic-coated surface on firearms is about the best approach for preventing surface corrosion, so if you’ve ever handled a true SIG 550 series, true German Hk, or Swedish AK5 (licensed FNC), you’ll see what I mean about the coatings they use.
Cerakote provides the same type of protection, but isn’t electrostatic-bonded. With Cerakote or any coatings, you have to be careful on the AR-15 family with the magazine catch because if you reduce the tolerances, you can get binding even on a dry gun in the summer. You can test-fit and drop an empty magazine and it works fine, then insert a loaded magazine and it won’t drop due to the weight/swell pushing it over the edge into binding. I learned that on one of my first Cerakote jobs on an AR, ended up having to lightly sand the inside of the mag catch slot on the left side to get it to function.
Finland apparently is getting a new AR-10 type DMR/Sniper System. Notice the coatings:
great stuffI’ve spent many years shooting in the sub-arctic and Arctic with the Finns from 2005-2016, doing high-volume, multi-day courses in far colder conditions than that nice spring day in the video. Every time I flew back to the US in the dead of winter from up there, as we broke through the clouds landing in CO or UT, it would be the first time I had seen the sun since leaving the US. I was there for a whole year from 2005-2006, then went back 3-4 times per year up until 2016.
For some reason, every multi-day course in the winter we did was around -30˚C (-22˚F) as the norm. I never saw the ground in the winter, just ice and snow piled up pretty high on any of the range complexes we used, as well as into the forest for overnight treks on skis with rucks.
I’ve seen hundreds of various types of AKs, Rks, AR-15s, some weird frankenguns, at least one FNC, Hk33s, Hk53s, MP5s, AR-10s, and one Bushmaster ACR come though those courses.
Never once did I see any weapon soaked in water and left to freeze. The Finns said it’s SOP to store rifles outside of heated tents in the winter for the reasons mentioned by some posters above. Finnish officers built the US Army Arctic Warfare training program back in the 1950s after the war when they left Finland once the Soviets put pressure on Finland internally, so the actual war-fighters who were continuing a contingency plan for follow-on Soviet invasion were arrested and thrown in prison. Lauri Törni was one such officer, arrested and imprisoned multiple times in Finland his service, even as a Mannerheim Cross recipient (equivalent of CMH). Many Finnish officers had already escaped to the US and joined the US Army under the Lodge Act, which allowed ex-pats to get US citizenship after faithful military service.
This is a Russian overwhite set that copied the new Finnish Defense Forces M05 pattern. Russians make copies of all their neighbors’ camo patterns so their special troops units can conduct false flag operations. These Russian-made overwhites are utter garbage with no breathability by the way. They accumulate your perspiration and coat the insides with a layer of moisture, which is not good in -30˚C conditions as you would imagine. The Finnish M05 overwhite/digitial snow camo uniforms are actually well-made with breathable fabric.
Anyway, I just have never seen rifles in that condition at any time over the past 3 decades of taking issued or military rifles into extreme cold conditions. Korea was really freaking cold and wet, and the most I saw there was that frosty snowflake texture that would accumulate on the surface of our weapons.
As far as reliability goes, the Rk62, Rk92, and Rk95 Finnish rifles fed Finnish brass-cased 7.62x39 were extremely reliable, followed by TDP-built AR-15s. 11.5” AR-15s did extremely well over many years of high volume arctic condition courses in Finland. I don’t ever recall seeing one of the guys with 11.5”-14.5" ARs having any malfunctions.
High volume courses are really hard on a firearm in -30˚C conditions because you take a rifle, magazines, and ammo that are at that temperature, then run it hot in volume through various drills, then it immediately drops back to ambient temp quite rapidly. It really illustrates how far we’ve come with the metallurgy and QC on TDP-built rifles.
Vismod rifles like Bushmaster and DIY builds with questionable parts are the only ARs I saw that occasionally malfunctioned. Arsenal AKs seemed to malfunction more than anything else in those courses, both in extreme cold and the middle of summer. Malfs I specifically recall with the AKs were FTExtract/double feed shooting Russian steel case ammo.
If I was going into the arctic and had that whole assortment of blasters to choose from, I would immediately reach for a properly-built 11.5” or 12.5” AR-15 carbine. I would stay away from skeletonized hammers. They actually use generous lube of varying types. A good buddy of mine said they were issued WD40 in the Finnish Army with their Rks, but I’m not sure what they do now.
I never saw a selector or ejection port door seize up on any AR-15s, AKs, or the articulating cover on the FNC.
Some of the Finns who scheduled and conducted a lot of their training were keeping records of what guns actually experienced malfunctions, what type of malfunctions, ammo, magazines, etc. over several years when I started working with them. From many years of their records at that time, it seemed that Arsenal AKs and Bushmasters had about the same level of reliability (there were a lot of Bushmasters imported into Finland that they were using, after having been run through Riihimäki proof-testing facility and given proof stamps on the bolts and barrels after successful containment of proof-test loads).
My 2 cents anyway.
what lube were they using if you recall? I know you said wd40 but that is the antithesis of lube so curious.
thx
For lubes, I think there was a mix of CLP and whatever they use up there. I honestly don’t recall. Several of the guys are really dialed-in to the M4 TDP and might have been using LSA, I just don’t know.
I know at least on several of the trips I was using Slip2000. I specifically remember the DHS folks at the airport trying to tell me I couldn’t fly with petroleum-based lube, so I pointed out to them on the ingredients that it wasn’t. (Slip2000 folks had given me a trash bag full of their stuff at SHOT in 2008 before I left for Finland in the summer.) I didn’t come back from that trip until spring of 2009.
In another multi-day tactical pistol course put on by them, we actually did have caked-on snow and ice on the guns and mags. There was a culmination test on the last day where students waited in a holding area before being able to go through the gauntlet. Once it was your turn, you passed through a barrier onto the range without a pistol, and had to run to some pallets with various pistols set up with different malfunctions on them. As you ran towards the firing points, the instructors were pelting you with snow/ice balls, so you and the guns got wrecked with snow and ice.
Most of the pistols in that course were Glocks, followed by M&Ps, some 1911s, and a CZ-75. The one major failure I remember from that course was the CZ-75’s slide stop shaft snapping in half, gun was deadlined. I think that happened on either day 1 or night 1. I was shooting a G17 for that course. 1911 was a little dicey trying to shoot with gloves on for one guy.
The Glocks and M&Ps ran like raped apes, even caked with snow and ice from snowball impacts and general lack of care for their condition during the culminex. It was the most fun pistol course I ever did, at well below freezing.
I know at least on several of the trips I was using Slip2000. I specifically remember the DHS folks at the airport trying to tell me I couldn’t fly with petroleum-based lube, so I pointed out to them on the ingredients that it wasn’t. (Slip2000 folks had given me a trash bag full of their stuff at SHOT in 2008 before I left for Finland in the summer.) I didn’t come back from that trip until spring of 2009.
In another multi-day tactical pistol course put on by them, we actually did have caked-on snow and ice on the guns and mags. There was a culmination test on the last day where students waited in a holding area before being able to go through the gauntlet. Once it was your turn, you passed through a barrier onto the range without a pistol, and had to run to some pallets with various pistols set up with different malfunctions on them. As you ran towards the firing points, the instructors were pelting you with snow/ice balls, so you and the guns got wrecked with snow and ice.
Most of the pistols in that course were Glocks, followed by M&Ps, some 1911s, and a CZ-75. The one major failure I remember from that course was the CZ-75’s slide stop shaft snapping in half, gun was deadlined. I think that happened on either day 1 or night 1. I was shooting a G17 for that course. 1911 was a little dicey trying to shoot with gloves on for one guy.
The Glocks and M&Ps ran like raped apes, even caked with snow and ice from snowball impacts and general lack of care for their condition during the culminex. It was the most fun pistol course I ever did, at well below freezing.
The biggest problem with these videos where guys purposely sabotage the rifles with warm water and then let it freeze is, where are you going to get warm water in extreme cold conditions?
Some of the answers might include freezing rain/sleet in a more temperate climate, but keeping the guns lubed really prevents debilitating accumulation of rain on them. If you left a rifle out with one side up in the freezing rain, maybe you could get it to go somewhere close to that condition, but I just haven’t seen that. Maybe for the North Easterners, but I just grew up in a culture where you got physically abused if you left your weapon unattended, so keeping it on you/close to your body in the rain seems to have always prevented that for me.
I can remember times in hide sites in the winter where conditions were sucky. Our weapons looked rough, but they still ran when generously-lubed. Lube your weapons, no matter what design they are. That includes AKs.
Some of the answers might include freezing rain/sleet in a more temperate climate, but keeping the guns lubed really prevents debilitating accumulation of rain on them. If you left a rifle out with one side up in the freezing rain, maybe you could get it to go somewhere close to that condition, but I just haven’t seen that. Maybe for the North Easterners, but I just grew up in a culture where you got physically abused if you left your weapon unattended, so keeping it on you/close to your body in the rain seems to have always prevented that for me.
I can remember times in hide sites in the winter where conditions were sucky. Our weapons looked rough, but they still ran when generously-lubed. Lube your weapons, no matter what design they are. That includes AKs.
I wish he hadn't done a video just to do a video and would've tested lubes to gather some meaningful data. His conclusions are pretty much worthless this time.
I think that he was trying to be fair in his test.... but really far to many variables. The way he was flipping the guns over and dumping water on them..... some could have drained as he flipped them- others got the water in different spots etc. Get ice in the right spot on a trigger and you are done- even if the rest of the gun is good to go.
The scenario is not feasible to me. Even if I did submerge a rifle /myself there is no way I’d leave my shit soaking wet, in one position in freezing conditions unless I was fucking dead from hypothermia.
I like his videos, but I agree there was no real value to this one except entertainment, which is certainly a good enough reason to watch.
I agree, a lube comparison would have been nice. We had a squad of rifles only get one shot off on a squad live fire in Germany as they CLP appeared to be so thick the BCG dragged to the point that it would not cycle for the first 3-5 rounds, then they warmed a touch and ran like a top. Likely it was too much CLP in sub-freezing conditions and that’s easy enough to emulate. Issue would be the time it would take to do all the different lubes on one control rifle. I’m not sure how you could keep the weather conditions consistent long enough to make it meaningful.
I like his videos, but I agree there was no real value to this one except entertainment, which is certainly a good enough reason to watch.
I agree, a lube comparison would have been nice. We had a squad of rifles only get one shot off on a squad live fire in Germany as they CLP appeared to be so thick the BCG dragged to the point that it would not cycle for the first 3-5 rounds, then they warmed a touch and ran like a top. Likely it was too much CLP in sub-freezing conditions and that’s easy enough to emulate. Issue would be the time it would take to do all the different lubes on one control rifle. I’m not sure how you could keep the weather conditions consistent long enough to make it meaningful.
Piss on it is about all I can think of. Whipping out your dick when it's 11 degrees and snowing is always fun. Just pray it's not windy.
Speaking from experience, having to piss outside in -10, -15ish F (give or take a few degrees) in January in 20-30kt winds on Mt. Rainier is very uncomfortable. Pretty sure my balls were tucked up into my stomach.....10/10 would not recommend
I honestly think that he was shooting to make a video that would draw clicks and get people talking and go viral and for that he succeeded. I am not 100 percent sure what his background is but I think he has some experience with survival in the AF and I am fairly confident that he has an idea what works and does work during cold weather training. Does this mean he is an expert in arctic operations, of course not, but between a trip to Bridgeport many years ago, and spending weekends in the mountains of WV in the dead of winter I even figured out that the stuff that Garand Thumb and the Kalashnikov group do are really not a thing. its fun to watch and gets people talking but its not really a thing.
At least in the US real cold weather test involve placing weapons in a cold chamber at -60f for a period of time and shooting a number of cycles to establish base line performance. Once baseline performance is established, that is when the artic SME types figure out what needs to be done to keep stuff running in the cold temps. At no time during these test does anyone start dumping water in weapons system to test function.
He was a sere instructor at Fairchild. Now is an ALO. His cold weather survival background is legit.
I'm sure but here he looks like someone that really doesn't know about what really happens to weapons via real world cold weather conditions. As I said earlier and other posters chimed in on; his test is just a fun youtube and has no real world applicability as it's simply a parts freeze. Cold weather survivability training and weapons training in cold environments are not one in the same. I always pay attention when LRRPF52 chimes in as he is one, throughout the years, that is really on point with his experience and commentary not just here but on other forums as well.
The only thing I see that I learned and experienced differently was the generous lube but then again, I've not had to endure prolonged periods at -40.
I do find lubes and the testing and applicability to them of keen interest. I was in northern seskastachawan for 3 weeks and a guy in my group was running penn oil (used on fishing and marine equipment, and that stuff kept his rig running very well dare I say better than clp and my beloved mobil 1 lol
fun stuff regardless.
"grand uncle" said it was SOP in WW2 to wake up in the morning and piss across your M1 a little, then put 1-2 rounds in the dirt.
grandfather in-law said it was the same in korea.
but they actually cleaned their rifle...before it told them lolol
edit...all kinds of F'd up words and spelling
grandfather in-law said it was the same in korea.
but they actually cleaned their rifle...before it told them lolol
edit...all kinds of F'd up words and spelling
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Look at the bright side the enemy's rifle will be frozen as well. Lol
Lol, yeah it is cold up in the mountains in WA. But we didn't have weapons. We had a roll of Lifesavers. As far as ALO goes didn't they get reduced (not pilots, navigators, weapons officer) due to ROMADS going to JTAC.
Another thing I would point out is that there’s a difference in how weapons present when taken from warm conditions into the extreme cold for the purpose of conducting high volume live fire, vs carrying and living with weapons in extreme cold and not knowing when they will be fired.
When you’re working in -30˚C/-22˚ F, the ambient temperature does a great job of taking the weapons back down to that ambient temp very quickly and closely-replicating extended duration conditions.
One of the most overlooked aspects about any small arms TDP in the US is the fact that we have spent more effort on making sure weapons will function in arctic conditions, as well as other extreme climates and environments. There are small armies of engineers and technicians who have covered down on these trials for generations, with more infrastructure to that end than any other army on the face of the earth.
It’s one of the reasons why military rifles and machine-guns are gassed so hard. You’ll notice different cyclic rate in extreme cold vs warmer weather, for example. An M4, vehicle engine, and any number of mechanical devices needs to work in extreme cold. US Army has used the CRTC (Cold Regions Test Center) at Fort Greeley, Alaska since the 1940s. Fort Greeley is over 63˚ N latitude in the deep interior of Alaska, so it gets very cold up there. For those who have studied the history of the AR-15 saga, early AR-15 prototypes were sent to Fort Greeley along with other SCHV candidates in March, 1958.
The evaluation process started at Fort Benning, then Fort Greeley, then Aberdeen Proving Grounds, even as Dr. Carten from the Ordnance Board tried to get control of the SCHV and bring it to Springfield where he could sabotage the SCHVs and rig the testing to show the M-14 to be superior. At Fort Benning already, the prototype M14s (T44E4s) demonstrated a fairly high malfunction rate of 16/1000 rounds, while prototype AR-15s had 6.1/1000 rds.
Word got back to Stoner that the AR-15s weren’t doing so well in Alaska, so he flew up there personally and found that technicians had removed the taper pins on the FSBs, and replaced them with sections of welding rod, which threw the Point of Impact way off in the accuracy tests. Stoner repaired the rifles with the correct parts and got them back into proper function, then reported on how it seemed as if the rifles had been sabotaged.
There are NATO standards that are constantly updated that are extremely difficult to meet for a military small arm. The metallurgy, materials science, coatings, gas system performance, ammunition, and mechanical interface tolerances are all closely controlled to optimize performance in these extreme conditions.
When I was a junior enlisted soldier, I took so many things for granted about what went into the design and functionality of our weapons, and I had been studying the history and technical details of the AR-15 more intently than anyone else I knew at the time. It takes many years to become familiar with and more learned about any subject really, so the initial journey of 2 decades is just your required dues for entry, doesn’t grant you anything but a seat to try to learn more.
Most of what I thought I knew was either wrong or I didn’t have the long-term experience to really place it in the correct context. Take the 1/14 rifling as a very relevant example to this discussion.
There was this idea floating around that we went from 1/14 to 1/12 to make the 5.56 less lethal. The truth was that 1/14 was the main twist rate for centerfire .224 bores in the 1950s with the new (1950) .222 Remington being the only popular cartridge that fit that bill, used for varmint-hunting and benchrest shooting.
The original prototype barrels made for the AR-15 rifles for Hollywood ArmaLite had a 1/14 twist, as did the first production AR-15 Colt Model 601 rifles for the USAF and US Army. 1/14 twist doesn’t keep the 55gr FMJBT stable well past 200m in extreme cold conditions, so the twist rate was tightened to 1/12 with the Colt Model 602 and stayed that way on the Colt 603 (M16A1) and USAF Colt 604. The claim was made that 1/12 kept the projectiles too stable in tissue, reducing their explosive performance demonstrated by the 1/14 twist rifles. Modern access to ballistics testing has shown that velocity and jacket thickness play the critical roles in projectile fragmentation, not 2” difference in twist rate.
The problem then was limited access to written information. The problem now is people who make compelling videos established as a legitimate source of technical data, when their motive is getting more clicks for the algorithms. Fundamentally, we have a generation of kids who received participation trophies in childhood, which created a series of dopamine addiction highs that need a basis for continual validation into adulthood. Making videos and getting likes plus high viewership metrics drives the information flow, which is about as far from anything scientific as you can get.
I think that’s the real basis for this problem, but it’s an interesting subject to think about for those of us that actually use firearms in extreme cold.
When you’re working in -30˚C/-22˚ F, the ambient temperature does a great job of taking the weapons back down to that ambient temp very quickly and closely-replicating extended duration conditions.
One of the most overlooked aspects about any small arms TDP in the US is the fact that we have spent more effort on making sure weapons will function in arctic conditions, as well as other extreme climates and environments. There are small armies of engineers and technicians who have covered down on these trials for generations, with more infrastructure to that end than any other army on the face of the earth.
It’s one of the reasons why military rifles and machine-guns are gassed so hard. You’ll notice different cyclic rate in extreme cold vs warmer weather, for example. An M4, vehicle engine, and any number of mechanical devices needs to work in extreme cold. US Army has used the CRTC (Cold Regions Test Center) at Fort Greeley, Alaska since the 1940s. Fort Greeley is over 63˚ N latitude in the deep interior of Alaska, so it gets very cold up there. For those who have studied the history of the AR-15 saga, early AR-15 prototypes were sent to Fort Greeley along with other SCHV candidates in March, 1958.
The evaluation process started at Fort Benning, then Fort Greeley, then Aberdeen Proving Grounds, even as Dr. Carten from the Ordnance Board tried to get control of the SCHV and bring it to Springfield where he could sabotage the SCHVs and rig the testing to show the M-14 to be superior. At Fort Benning already, the prototype M14s (T44E4s) demonstrated a fairly high malfunction rate of 16/1000 rounds, while prototype AR-15s had 6.1/1000 rds.
Word got back to Stoner that the AR-15s weren’t doing so well in Alaska, so he flew up there personally and found that technicians had removed the taper pins on the FSBs, and replaced them with sections of welding rod, which threw the Point of Impact way off in the accuracy tests. Stoner repaired the rifles with the correct parts and got them back into proper function, then reported on how it seemed as if the rifles had been sabotaged.
There are NATO standards that are constantly updated that are extremely difficult to meet for a military small arm. The metallurgy, materials science, coatings, gas system performance, ammunition, and mechanical interface tolerances are all closely controlled to optimize performance in these extreme conditions.
When I was a junior enlisted soldier, I took so many things for granted about what went into the design and functionality of our weapons, and I had been studying the history and technical details of the AR-15 more intently than anyone else I knew at the time. It takes many years to become familiar with and more learned about any subject really, so the initial journey of 2 decades is just your required dues for entry, doesn’t grant you anything but a seat to try to learn more.
Most of what I thought I knew was either wrong or I didn’t have the long-term experience to really place it in the correct context. Take the 1/14 rifling as a very relevant example to this discussion.
There was this idea floating around that we went from 1/14 to 1/12 to make the 5.56 less lethal. The truth was that 1/14 was the main twist rate for centerfire .224 bores in the 1950s with the new (1950) .222 Remington being the only popular cartridge that fit that bill, used for varmint-hunting and benchrest shooting.
The original prototype barrels made for the AR-15 rifles for Hollywood ArmaLite had a 1/14 twist, as did the first production AR-15 Colt Model 601 rifles for the USAF and US Army. 1/14 twist doesn’t keep the 55gr FMJBT stable well past 200m in extreme cold conditions, so the twist rate was tightened to 1/12 with the Colt Model 602 and stayed that way on the Colt 603 (M16A1) and USAF Colt 604. The claim was made that 1/12 kept the projectiles too stable in tissue, reducing their explosive performance demonstrated by the 1/14 twist rifles. Modern access to ballistics testing has shown that velocity and jacket thickness play the critical roles in projectile fragmentation, not 2” difference in twist rate.
The problem then was limited access to written information. The problem now is people who make compelling videos established as a legitimate source of technical data, when their motive is getting more clicks for the algorithms. Fundamentally, we have a generation of kids who received participation trophies in childhood, which created a series of dopamine addiction highs that need a basis for continual validation into adulthood. Making videos and getting likes plus high viewership metrics drives the information flow, which is about as far from anything scientific as you can get.
I think that’s the real basis for this problem, but it’s an interesting subject to think about for those of us that actually use firearms in extreme cold.
