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Frustration! Lake city brass

Beepy

Beepy

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 18, 2008
156
0
The Northwest Mountains
#1
Hoping some of you guys have some answers.

Let me preface, I'm not new to reloading, I have been reloading for years. When guys in town have questions about reloading they ask me, so I'm going nuts!

I admit this is my first go around with lake city once fired brass. I'm loading .308, and have been using mostly Winchester and federal (as long as the primer pockets hold out)

This Lake city is mostly 2010 and 2011, obviously machine gun fired. I sized it first with my cheaper set of RCBS dies, trimmed to minimum, turned the neck.

Every case of the test ones it is really hard to close the bolt, it will close but not nice and easy like the Winchester brass. So I made sure that the die was setup right, checked that the shoulder was bumped back correctly (this is a FL sizer), and re tried. Still pretty hard to close the bolt. I then went through the whole process with some Winchester with the same setup, and the bolt closed nice and easy.

I next setup my Forster FL die and ran them through, same results.

I then ran it through my small base dies, same difficulty with closing the bolt resulted.

I then took a piece of this brass and made a 'perfect' dummy round. 2 thousandths neck tension, LESS than 1 thousandth bullet run out.

STILL HARD TO CLOSE THE BOLT!

I then took my calipers and tried to find where the measurements are different with this dummy round and a piece of the Winchester brass that had the same treatment that closes the bolt nice and easy. I couldn't for the life of me find a difference except the extractor groove is not as wide on the LC as it is with all military brass....

Anybody have any ideas before I lose all my hair?
 
#2
It sounds like you probably have more reloading experience than I do, but is it possible that since this was fired out of a machine gun that the brass is some how bent. I know your resizing it so it should be correct. What I mean by bent is if you set it on a flat surface does the case stand straight up, or does it lean to one side or the other? Also the extractor groove is it the same size all the way around the case? Obviously because they are round you may have to look at them from all sides to tell.
 
#4
I assume that when you say "checked that the shoulder was bumped back correctly", you measured the case with a comparator? How does the sized LC brass compare against new factory brass?
 
#5
^I agree with temp9 are you sure you bumped the shoulders enough? You might have to re-adjust your die to further bump it! I tried to resize mil brass without re-adjusting mine and while it was good for my win brass it wasn't for the mil machine gun shot brass. If you checked all that I'd go nuts too!
 
#6
Lake City .308 can be very tough to size, and they do sometimes "bounce back". Only reason I know this is because I use the same Lee Full Sizer die for all my brass, but the resized LC seems to fit tighter in my Dillon Case gauge tighter than the other brass. The cure I have found is to resize each case twice. Check out my Reloading process for LC .308 (and other stuff too) here:
Cartmann's complete .308 Win and .45 ACP Reloading step by step (with pictures) - Nevada Shooters
 
#7
If you small base sized them, then I am at a loss. Every once in a while, my bolt is a little hard to close on a piece if LC brass I SB sized. Your rifle may be set a minimum headspace.
 
#8
EricCartmann said:
Lake City .308 can be very tough to size, and they do sometimes "bounce back". Only reason I know this is because I use the same Lee Full Sizer die for all my brass, but the resized LC seems to fit tighter in my Dillon Case gauge tighter than the other brass. The cure I have found is to resize each case twice. Check out my Reloading process for LC .308 (and other stuff too) here:
Cartmann's complete .308 Win and .45 ACP Reloading step by step (with pictures) - Nevada Shooters
Click to expand...

That was a nice write up man.
 
#9
Another thought: There are two different chambers (note this is a generalization) in our 7.26 machine guns. M60s and the like had a big chamber resulting in brass being blown out more than bolt guns or more recent (M249). The more recent MGs have a smaller chamber and resize much easier. How to tell which you have? Good question. I know about mine because it was collected for the purpose of reloading and kept segreated for that reason.
 
#11
I used a RCBS small base die set on both .223 and .308 from linked fired brass, I "held" for a second or two when the brass was fully into the die to help alleviate any "bounce back" I used them both in semi's without issue. This brass is really worked hard when fired from the machine guns and small base sized.
 
#12
You may try an old trick, size the brass (imperial sizing wax, of course) then turn the case 90 degrees in the shell holder and size again. This is to say after you have double checked the shoulder length. Are you using a good case gauge?
 
#14
Redding makes a small base body only die. I've had to run all my LC brass through it before using the FL bushing die in order to get it to chamber. I don't know if the Redding is slightly smaller than the RCBS or what. I bought the body only cause I didn't want to over work the necks.
 
#15
I'm an M1A shooter with lots of experience with LC machinegun residue, and can tell you that I always have to adjust my dies for the 1st sizing of that stuff. You're problem is most likely in the headspace dimension (how far the shoulders were bumped) I usually anneal 1x fired LC before I size them. It helps tremendously. The problem is that the stuff is thick and hard. When this is coupled with being fired in an MG it makes for tough to size brass. You need a gage to check headspace if you're gonna use LC. You can bump the shoulders back down it just takes a die adjustment and, perhaps, a double bump.

A small base die doesn't do anything to change the headspace dimension above and beyond what a standard die does. It just squeezes the bodies down a little more than usual. I doubt your problem is the case bodies being too big. If the rounds slide freely into your chamber, but the bolt is difficult to close then you most likely just need to screw your die in a little more.

I hope you get it figured out. I know these things can be frustrating.
 
#17
chefcam864 said:
I'm an M1A shooter with lots of experience with LC machinegun residue, and can tell you that I always have to adjust my dies for the 1st sizing of that stuff. You're problem is most likely in the headspace dimension (how far the shoulders were bumped) I usually anneal 1x fired LC before I size them. It helps tremendously. The problem is that the stuff is thick and hard. When this is coupled with being fired in an MG it makes for tough to size brass. You need a gage to check headspace if you're gonna use LC. You can bump the shoulders back down it just takes a die adjustment and, perhaps, a double bump.

A small base die doesn't do anything to change the headspace dimension above and beyond what a standard die does. It just squeezes the bodies down a little more than usual. I doubt your problem is the case bodies being too big. If the rounds slide freely into your chamber, but the bolt is difficult to close then you most likely just need to screw your die in a little more.

I hope you get it figured out. I know these things can be frustrating.
Click to expand...

On the RCBS site they state it bumps the shoulder back to minimum headspace. All I know is with a standard FL die I can't chamber them in my rifle, but with a small base FL die they work great.
 
#18
The problem is many people screw down their FL die until it just touches the shell holder. Then when a case is being sized, it causes the press to flex, and the shell holder is no longer bumping to max capability. For whatever reason, small base dies tend to be set up to bump the shoulder back more, as well as size the base more (which is the intended purpose), so when the die is set up just touching the shell holder, the SB die may bump the shoulder a few thousandths more than a standard die. Often times, this several thousandths is enough to get headspace to where it needs to be. Bottom line is that SB dies are usually not needed if the standard die is set up properly. In my experience....
 
#19
I tried grinding 0.005 off the bottom of a FL die and it still would not produce LC brass the would chamber in either bolt gun. The headspace comparator was showing it to be 0.002 shorter than other brass that would chamber. The SB die is only needed for the first resizing after the brass comes out of a machine gun. This is only b/c the LC brass has so much spring-back it takes a SB die the first time. After I fire it in my bolt gun I only need to neck size it. The stuff is so hard some of the cases will grip a bullet after firing enough to just pour powder in and go. I think the smith got the neck dia. on the small side for the chamber. Some of the brass approaches 0.016 thick
 
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#20
LC brass is as tough as nails and pretty damn hard.
Normal headspace die settings wont work as the LC brass just bounces back significantly after resizing. Running the press fast will make the headspace BIGGER yet.
Doubting Thomas types try this before you open your mouths.

I would anneal a few cases and try resizing again...Only this time hold the press at the bottom of the stroke for a 3-5 count. Then swing the press until you can grab the brass, rotate it 90-180 degrees and size it for another 5 count.
Even without the annealing you will see a 2-5 thou increase in headspace using this method.

If the cases feed better, but remain a bit too snug have a machine shop remove some clearance from the bottom of the die.....Small base will not help headspace.
 
#22
With some machinegun brass, you have to really oversize it the first time. The grossly large chamber and the springback from the LC brass is probably getting you. I have a shellholder that I removed material off of just for this. I painted it, so it was easy to spot. Another trick is to deprime as a separate step, then cut a little shim to place under the case head, in the shellholder. A pair of tin snips and a scrap piece of roof flashing or siding will work fine. This takes up the small amount of slack present, and is sometimes enough to get it to chamber. I did all of this when I was young and broke, now I would rather buy better brass and skip all the extra work. Lightman
 
#23
Anneal it and fuhgetaboutit. Seriously, it works. If excessive headspace in a bolt gun is a problem, then it's a bloody disaster waiting to happen in an M1A. After trying 3 dies, (Lee, RCBS, Forster sb) I came to the conclusion that annealing was the best way of consistently resizing MG brass. Brass out of my M1A measures 1.622" base to datum line using a hornady comparator. I've seen lots of LC machine gun brass measure 1.633"-1.635". For comparison, new Win. brass measures 1.617". I know these numbers don't jibe with SAMMI drawings, but most comparators won't give an exact measurement, but rather a reference to see where you are and where you were. Anyways, if the shoulders have been blown out .016"-.018" over what new brass measures, then it's going to be tough to bump them back down to where you'd like them. However, if you anneal the necks & shoulders this can be done with much less fuss. If you don't want to anneal and you're still having difficulties, you may try removing the expander and sizing all your cases once, then replace the expander and size again. My expander tends to hang up a little more on the thick necks of LC, which causes it to pull the shoulders back out a thou or 2 on the upstroke. This is a PITA (which is why I don't do it anymore), but it is effective. I remember reading an article sbout 1x fired brass by Glen Zediker, and he suggested putting it all through a Wilson case gauge before sizing and tossing anything w/ excessive headspace. However, that was written in the early 2000's when 100 ct bags of Winchester brass could be had for $23. In today's climate I would be loath to toss brass if I thought I could make it work safely.
 
#24
You could always get a concentricity gauge to make sure the brass is perfect after coming out of the FL resizer. Personally I'd never shoot something from a gas gun in my bolt gun if I'm going for precision. Lapua brass is starting to show up at places. I realize this is not a cheap option, but in today's climate, nothing is cheap in the world of firearms.
 
#27
Annealing sounds like a good idea! It was not as popular to anneal, back when I shot surplus brass, as it is today, and I did not think about it. I don't think case concentricy is the issue here. Its more of a sizing problem. Lightman
 
#28
EricCartmann said:
Lake City .308 can be very tough to size, and they do sometimes "bounce back". Only reason I know this is because I use the same Lee Full Sizer die for all my brass, but the resized LC seems to fit tighter in my Dillon Case gauge tighter than the other brass. The cure I have found is to resize each case twice. Check out my Reloading process for LC .308 (and other stuff too) here:
Cartmann's complete .308 Win and .45 ACP Reloading step by step (with pictures) - Nevada Shooters
Click to expand...

Great info. Thank you for sharing.
 
#30
An acquaintance on another board who processes brass for service rifle shooters only accepts lots srted by brand/headstamp. Different brass sizes differently and he has to adjust his dies for each brand of brass.

Cartmann, nice write up.
 
#33
1lnbrdg said:
I'd remove material from the shell-holder before I removed it from the die.
Click to expand...

Why?

I have many rifles headspaced with a tight crush fit (much tighter than Saami spec and shooting factory wont happen). Often I have had to resort to having the sizer base trimmed...No big deal.
If you are running a Co-Ax (I am) you have no choice anyway.
 
#34
X-fan said:
Why?

I have many rifles headspaced with a tight crush fit (much tighter than Saami spec and shooting factory wont happen). Often I have had to resort to having the sizer base trimmed...No big deal.
If you are running a Co-Ax (I am) you have no choice anyway.
Click to expand...

Because for some chambers, you will need all that you can get out of the die. If you change the shell-holder height, that still works for all chambers. Not so if you change the die length.
 
#35
I have had issues with RCBS dies not bumping the shoulder back on 7.62 brass. I gave up, and use either Hornady dies or Redding dies on 7.62 brass. Consequently, the RCBS dies seem to work ok on 308 brass, so it has been a real head scratcher for me.
 
#36
280nosler said:
I have had issues with RCBS dies not bumping the shoulder back on 7.62 brass. I gave up, and use either Hornady dies or Redding dies on 7.62 brass. Consequently, the RCBS dies seem to work ok on 308 brass, so it has been a real head scratcher for me.
Click to expand...

We're they small base RCBS dies?
 
#37
I think you have bent brass. I am experiencing the same thing in my 300 and the brass is bent from being too hard. Anneal a couple of pieces and then size it, if that doesn't work, trash it and get Lapua.
 
#38
Over agonizing the problem. It hardly matters what the cases were fired in, any FL die used correctly will resize it properly. This stuff ain't rocket science, find where your problem is coming from and fix it there.

First, resize a case normally and see how it chambers; if the empty goes in okay you probably have a too thick neck or too long OAL problem. If it doesn't go in, you have a simple case resizing problem. To see where it's too tight, paint the case with a dark felt tip marker and chamber it 3-4 times, then check for where the marker is rubbed off all the way around. If it's rubbed off the shoulder - and I'd bet it is - turn the die down another 1/8th turn and FL size again. If that doesn't fix it, sand/grind the die mouth off 3-4 thou, meaning "fix" the die, not the shell holder. Dies are adjustable and I find it hard to comprehend the logic of changing a shell holder to fix a die problem!

So far as any commercial shell holders that permit additional sizing, they don't exist. Redding has a set of "competition" shell holders that limit sizing to LESS than normal.
 
Last edited:
#41
280nosler said:
Yes, which is why I am so confused. I think the dies are slightly out of spec, because I lent them out to another person, and he came back and told me he could not get the bolt to close on brass for his rifle either.
Click to expand...

let me guess, Savage Barrel? Savage chambers are dam tight. I can shoot Neck Sized Brass from Savage Chambers in all my semi autos and it reliably cycles LOL
 
Last edited:
#42
"Fuzz, Are we talking factory chambers or match chambers. This problem only occurs on my match chambers "

Guess it depends on your "match chambers" actual dimensions and the actual dimensions of your FL sizers. If your sizers are larger than your chambers you're likely to have problems with any cases, not just LC., but that's not what I consider normal because no chamber is supposed to be reamed smaller than a max case. In fact, I wouldn't have a rifle with a smaller chamber than minimum SAAMI specs for exactly that reason. So worrying about machine gun cases isn't the issue but the mismatch of chamber and sizer may be. Anyway, I've reformed surplus GI 30-06 into cases as small as .22-250 with normal cheep used flea market dies I modified for the purpose and that's a lot more challenging than resizing any 7.62 surplus cases, machine gun or not, with a normal .308 die.
 
#44
1lnbrdg said:
Because for some chambers, you will need all that you can get out of the die. If you change the shell-holder height, that still works for all chambers. Not so if you change the die length.
Click to expand...

Not true. We are only talking about 20 thou or less.
Even if you went crazy and wacked a full 1/8 inch off the bottom of the die it will still work fine.
I have a couple of 300Winchesters. One a match chamber min saami spec and a old Sendero with an incredibly sloppy chamber...and I use the same modified die for both

With a standard/factory chamber you end up with a die a squeak farther off the shell plate/shell holder....Nothing more.
The modification does not change the critical shoulder or neck area.
 
#45
Well, I'm just going to add more concern and another variable to this problem.

First, I was shocked to read this thread because it is identical to the problems I am having with some once-fired .223 LC brass that I fired myself form a bolt gun when it was new LC brass -- not from a machine gun!

Exact same symptoms, it all checks out but is mighty hard to chamber in a Tikka T3 varmint bolt action. Lapua and Winchester brass sized on same quality full-length Redding bushing dies chambered nicely. I checked the once-fired LC with a Wilson chamber gauge and a tight JP Enterprises chamber gauge and all seemed OK. I resized it again to fit these gauges and still the same result, really tight chambering. Just threw some away, now will go to check more from that batch. Hope it is not a LOT problem because I have 1,000 pieces of this stuff.

By the way, the pieces that I have that are still new will chamber ok, it is just the once-fired cases.
 
#47
Double cycle in SB RCBS die and it fits everything every time, if you read the rcbs manual it states to adjust the die until it touches the shellholder and then lower the die another quarter turn. Also if you are reloading in your garage at 60F the brass does not want to shape as well as let's say at 75F
 
#49
Been there, done that------I had the same experiences. I came to theses conclusions.
Military (guns) are all, widely different in chamber dimensions.
The brass is somewhat different in it's make up (I cut several apart lengthwise and examined them) from year to year.
Most dies size to proper spec most of the time---but can't always make up for "baloney" brass fired out of machine guns.
If you set your RCBS, Hornady or Redding die to the minimum----you start shoving the shoulder back too much and have a headspace issue; not always resolving the over sized O.D. near the base.-----I once tried grinding a few thousands off a RCBS FL die----(WRONG)---It shoves the shoulder back too much.
Small base dies will help in the most stubborn of situations.

I had a "lot" of brass (last month) that was mixed LC (different years (09, 10, 11---from different guns) and noticed that the lengths were a triffle different.
I acquired a Wilson cartridge headspace length gage to prevent having "loose" cartridges------and I'm glad I did---to prevent me from creating short, dangerous cartridges.
My standard RCBS die was able to size the cases acceptably, without over-sizing. I did not have to resort to using the small base die----however---if you drop the case into the Wilson headspace length gage and it fits properly but still tight to chamber---then go to the SB die-----Wilson says their gage is primarily designed to check the datum line from the shoulder to the case base and not so much the major diameter near the base----(Ah ha). You'll have to monkey with a few cases, as the SB die produces a slightly different case OAL than regular FL dies.
So far, I'm ok (now) and all my brass is right on.------------Good luck

PS.-----Redding makes a set of "progressive" shell holders; stepped in several thousands to correct headspacing issues with competition brass / competition chambers....
 
Last edited:
#50
As an after thought to my earlier post;
Speaking as if the problem were a machining issue (not a "gun" issue).
You said you compared 2 pieces of brass by measuring the external diameters----in the same spots---right?
The next issue would be thickness at the neck---(and O.D. after inserting a bullet).
The extractor groove can vary between lots---mine did---it had no effect on chambering, (in the M1A and in the Winchester Model 70)--although there were a few cases that did not want to fit in my RCBS competition shell holder--(while they fit the standard Hornady, Redding and RCBS shell holders easily). I don't see that as an immediate problem (it fired in a lot of other guns before).
As a last resort, you could cast the chamber, or check it with headspace gages------or gently cut a case in half through the middle; fit each piece to a dowel, and test fit to the chamber------It should reveal either a neck/shoulder issue, or a base/diameter issue; you could even fit a bullet to the neck/shoulder piece.
That's all that come to mind.
I would really like to know the outcome of your situation---as I use salvage brass now (like so many others) due to availability.
Thanks----and good luck.
 
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