Advanced Marksmanship Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

[Barn Side]

In the offhand position I find this impractical.

However centerline of the bore is over the shoulder and recoil over the top of my body making it hard to control.


Should all of the butt of the rifle have contact with the shoulder?

Do other forum members achieve full contact with the butt of the rifle with the shoulder when shooting offhand for precision?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In the offhand position I find this impractical.

However centerline of the bore is over the shoulder and recoil over the top of my body making it hard to control.


Should all of the butt of the rifle have contact with the shoulder?

Do other forum members achieve full contact with the butt of the rifle with the shoulder when shooting offhand for precision?
</div></div>

Bring the rifle to the head, with head remaining vertical and erect, then place butt in pocket formed in the shoulder. Since the rifle will be parallel to the chest, the rifle butt, fired from standing position, will end up above the shoulder with just the toe of butt making contact, or, if the firing hand elbow is not laid in a muscular relaxed condition, the butt will actually end up somewhere on the shooter's arm.

 

[Graham]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do other forum members achieve full contact with the butt of the rifle with the shoulder when shooting offhand for precision? </div></div>It depends on the rifle, and on the shooting discipline.

I don't shoot an iron-sighted AR for NRA hi-power the way I shoot a scoped .338 in a tactical competition.

 

[Barn Side]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

Thanks for the replies.

In relation to rifle setup wouldn’t it be better if it was so as to have more of the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder?

Olympic shooters seem to have such a setup.

 

[Barn Side]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

It seems like less of the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder.

 

[Graham]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

Consistent cheek weld is key.

 

[seanh]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

as mentioned, consistent cheek weld is the key but a solid anchor is also necessary.

Get an adjustable butt plate. When you shoot offhand, simply drop the butt plate down a little and you'll maintain that full pocket contact.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: seanh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">as mentioned, consistent cheek weld is the key but a solid anchor is also necessary.

Get an adjustable butt plate. When you shoot offhand, simply drop the butt plate down a little and you'll maintain that full pocket contact.
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There are 5 factors to a steady position: stockweld, elbows, non-firing hand, grip, and butt-to-shoulder.

 

[Graham]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are 5 factors to a steady position: stockweld, elbows, non-firing hand, grip, and butt-to-shoulder.</div></div>NPA trumps.

 

[stranded]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

DKealty, if that picture is you,could you go with higher scope mount and raise the cheeck? That would lower the bore to the shoulder. I know it might change all other position fit. Sometimes compromise work. Just another thought from a non-competetor.

 

[Barn Side]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

No that’s not me mate. The higher scope mount and raised cheek piece does make good sense.

Cheers

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">There are 5 factors to a steady position: stockweld, elbows, non-firing hand, grip, and butt-to-shoulder.</div></div>NPA trumps.</div></div>

They're all important; and, they are all connected to the concept of control. The idea is consistent recoil resistance. NPA is not a factor of a steady position. NPA is an element of a steady position, which also includes muscular relaxation, and support.

Typically, the rifle will be shouldered cognisant of the 5 factors of a steady position, but without consideration of target. Then, NPA will be adjusted for desired sight picture. So, it's not about this or that trumping one thing or another; rather, it's just about building the position in an orderly process which can be realized repeatedly through muscle memory.

 

[Graham]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA is not a factor of a steady position. NPA is an element of a steady position,</div></div>Not a factor; just an element. Hmmmm....... I'm seeing an argument without a position
(pun intended).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rather, it's just about building the position in an orderly process which can be realized repeatedly through muscle memory.</div></div>Perhaps in NRA hi-power shooting it is. However, sometimes it's also about getting behind something solid when a bullet cracks by your left ear and effectively returning fire.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NPA is not a factor of a steady position. NPA is an element of a steady position,</div></div>Not a factor; just an element. Hmmmm....... I'm seeing an argument without a position
(pun intended).

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">rather, it's just about building the position in an orderly process which can be realized repeatedly through muscle memory.</div></div>Perhaps in NRA hi-power shooting it is. However, sometimes it's also about getting behind something solid when a bullet cracks by your left ear and effectively returning fire.</div></div>

You might want to look at it as particular body stance (factors) producing particular effects(elements). I don't see the sort of shooting, NRA High Power or other, to be a modifier of the elements and factors of a steady position. The lesson for Soldiers or Juniors in context to basic marksmanship is the same.

As always, knowledge, skill, and implementation opportunity will determine the outcome for what ever the shooting scenario.

 

[Graham]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't see the sort of shooting, NRA High Power or other, to be a modifier of the elements and factors of a steady position. The lesson for Soldiers or Juniors in context to basic marksmanship is the same.</div></div>I disagree: I don't see standing in the wind as a good idea when the bullets are coming your way.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">As always, knowledge, skill, and implementation opportunity will determine the outcome for what ever the shooting scenario.</div></div>You just contradicted yourself: What, exactly, is your argument? Is it that the 'factors' and 'elements' you listed are always the same; or is that are they subject to changes in emphasis and in their nature based on knowledge, skill, and implementation opportunity?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

The elements and factors of a steady position are what they are. You either contemplate to put it all together or you don't.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

In the context of the rifle above, especially in a combat situation, the unsupported standing is the last shot you would want to take.

People practice it because they see it done in other regards, but really it should be only used as a last resort or in a very close in snap shot situation.

Using an 8LBS M4, different story, you can make shots standing all day long, a 15-18LBS sniper rifle with a high powered telescope on top, not so much. At least you can't compare the two the same way, like driving an 18 Wheeler tractor trailer vs driving a Ferrari. Sure both are standard shift and move the same but how you maneuver the truck through traffic is not how you drive your Ferrari.

Sure given time and opportunity, you can build a decent position, get some hits on an 18X30 inch target from 400 yards, but it's not fast, nor is it effective, when you think about the time it takes to build the position. In a combat / tactical situation you would be better off finding support than attempting to "build" a successful standing position. Which is why you see snipers even on the battlefield using a partner for support. In fact partner supported shots from the standing are taught much more than unsupported standing.

Practical

Posing

In Sniper School, they never had us take a standing shot. In classes of late, the only standing shots taught are snap shots for targets that are immediate and close --- example you come around a corner and 25 yards out you have a threat and the only rifle you have is your sniper rifle.

We do this because we have seen it done, not because it was practical to do.

We do this in certain competitions because time and opportunity are plenty, as noted with bullets flying past from a guy with a full auto AK, you don't want to stand there, and build a position. You have a bolt gun in a machine gun war, so cover and concealment are your best friends.

So consider the use, and the practical application of the task before committing to the idea that this will work anywhere but the square range in your home town, there is no time and opportunity anywhere else, that is not smarter to seek support and cover.

 

[SniperCJ]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dkealty</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the replies.

In relation to rifle setup wouldn’t it be better if it was so as to have more of the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder?

Olympic shooters seem to have such a setup.
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You cant even compare an Olympic set-up with a tactical (or any other real world) rifle. The Olympic rifle is so highly adjustable that you could conceivably adjust the buttpad down to achieve more shoulder contact and still keep proper cheek weld. No so with a Tac rifle.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

Look at that Olympic Shooter, that is a 10LBS rifle and still they never move more than a few inches from that Stand... the rifle is rested every chance they get.

The stand is set up so that way they only have to adjust a few inches off it for the shot then they can rest on the stand. Not to mention they are wearing a FULL Shooting Jacket and Pants set up... they are strapped in to that leather clothing which is designed for "their sport" ... Pants and Jacket.

Finally, optics matter too, iron sights don't have the wobble area of a magnified optic. Start adding magnification and you start seeing the movement grow by leaps and bounds. It's a different animal shooting iron sights from the standing vs shooting a magnified optic.

Not a good comparison

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

OP,

The purpose of any position is to support sight alignment and trigger control. In the standing position, with head remaining vertical and erect for balance, a proper stockweld, to maintain sight alignment, will place the butt of the fixed stock higher in the pocket formed in the shoulder than when shooting the same non adjustable stock rifle from the prone position. That's the big picture. The sort of rifle you are shooting may accommodate execution of the firing tasks from the standing position, or cause difficultly, as can be discerned by the photos earlier posted on this thread. BTW, the sort of stock designed for muscularly relaxed prone shooting, with or without artificial support, will not likely be satisfactory for a multitude of reasons when shot from the standing position. That's to say, practicing the standing position with a prone rifle is futile. On the other hand, something like an AR with A2 butt stock is very good for position practice and for developing marksmanship in general.

 

[Barn Side]

Re: Full contact of rifle butt with the shoulder

Thanks for the replies, I am learning a lot. Cheers