Fundamentals and gun setup

[seansmd]

The more I listen, learn, and practice a question keeps popping into my head. All of the great education and focus on fundamentals focuses on anchoring the stock into the shoulder pocket, properly loading the bipod with body position(not with hips and feet), proper cheek mold, and repeatable trigger position and not changing these once you are set.

If all of these are the keys to the shooter consistency wouldn't having the bolt and turrets be better suited for the off hand so you could maintain the cheek, shoulder, bipod, and trigger positioning?

 

[ShtrRdy]

Thinking about this a little differently - since we typically adjust elevation with the support hand on a rear bag, it's handy to leep that rear bag pressute while maintaining the cheek weld and bipod loading. I can easily re-establish my trigger hand position to be square on the trigger.

Another thing that's handy to do with the trigger hand is to adjust parallax while squeezing the rear bag for the correct sight picture.

 

[water_au]

this tacks onto somthing i was about to post about, with rifle setup is there a magic formula or a way to setup a rifle specifically for you?

ie. do you follow a formula or measurement of how far away the scope should be from your eye? how long your LOP should be? or do you put it together and play with it till your comfy or just put it together and run what ya brung kinda deal until your used to it?

so how do you setup a rifle or help someone setup a rifle for them! as newbie with my gun layed away until my safe is installed how do i get it perfect for me as a new shooter etc basically?

cheers! Jo.

 

[...]

The more I listen, learn, and practice a question keeps popping into my head. All of the great education and focus on fundamentals focuses on anchoring the stock into the shoulder pocket, properly loading the bipod with body position(not with hips and feet), proper cheek mold, and repeatable trigger position and not changing these once you are set.

If all of these are the keys to the shooter consistency wouldn't having the bolt and turrets be better suited for the off hand so you could maintain the cheek, shoulder, bipod, and trigger positioning?

If you shoot anything other than prone.... you will need your off hand to support the rifle.

It would also make shooting from a sling, or a hasty position impossible

 

[seansmd]

If you shoot anything other than prone.... you will need your off hand to support the rifle.

It would also make shooting from a sling, or a hasty position impossible

That makes sense for sure....

 

[Precision Underground]

this tacks onto somthing i was about to post about, with rifle setup is there a magic formula or a way to setup a rifle specifically for you?

ie. do you follow a formula or measurement of how far away the scope should be from your eye? how long your LOP should be? or do you put it together and play with it till your comfy or just put it together and run what ya brung kinda deal until your used to it?

so how do you setup a rifle or help someone setup a rifle for them! as newbie with my gun layed away until my safe is installed how do i get it perfect for me as a new shooter etc basically?

cheers! Jo.

If the rifle fits you properly you will easily be able to manipulate the bolt without breaking position. For me “pulling into the shoulder” happens last after I’m already on target. So letting go with the string hand should not break your on target position.

Having LOP, cheek weld, etc... correct for you is very important. I spent many hours over a few weeks on my man-room floor tweaking mine until I got it right. I still make a tweak here and there as well.

 

[Fig]

I don’t get it. Most scopes are operated by the off hand. Many have LH windage, top turret parallax, etc. to make it easier to operate off hand. Once the shot breaks it’s not that big a deal to work the bolt with your trigger hand... Recoil, unless it’s a .22, is going to be a lot more upsetting than working the bolt, and maybe even not a .22 if you have a slick, sixty degree throw... To me the “normal” way it’s done is by far the best way. What’s the alternative? I think I don’t understand.

 

[seansmd]

I think Mccameron nailed it, as a noob I was only thinking of prone and bench. Once you move or need to shoot with a sling you need the off hand. This is why we learn, thank you.



I was thinking that if the bolt was on the left, the cheek, shoulder, bipod load, and trigger hand could all be maintained. Less change, less introduction of error.

 

[Lowlight]

Nobody shoots with a sling anymore, even when forced like in a competition it's one stage with one target 99% of the time.


There is no need to speed to the controls of the scope, as most reticles today will adapt to a snapshot under time if needed. Most of the time the adjustments have been made to the optic before completing the sling up process anyway.

Distance is supposed to give you time and opportunity to line up the shot. The farther you shoot, the more the fundamentals come into play and the more time thanks to the distance you have to line up the shot.

Hell look at the stages in matches they dont' like, support side, and unsupported positions, they do everything they can to remove these unfavorable positions from the courses of fire to satisfy the ease. Even when asked to shoot support side, guys will do everything in their power to cheat this and just put the rifle in that shoulder but fire with the same strong side hand or eye. It's too much work for many to learn to transition to the support side correctly.

The support hand is just that, support to operate the rifle. Magazines should be loaded from the left, the only thing you want to do with your strong side hand is supporting the firing task and run the bolt. The other hand does the rest.

Any more alternate positions are supported, so the support hand does not have to hold the rifle up. Tripods, etc, hold the rifle for us. Balancing on a bag in the field, etc, the support hand is not supporting the rifle up, it's supporting the operation.

Inside danger close distances are where the holdover reticles were originally designed to operate. Man-sized or large dangerous game animals are close, hence bigger targets, so speed is necessary which comes from the hold, vs dialing the scope.

 

[308pirate]

Assuming that the support hand will never be needed to support the rifle because a rest of some sort will always be available is a myopic view of riflery.

And an incorrect view as well.

 

[Lowlight]

I never said, Never,

it's silly to consider it as a fundamental reasoning, it's old school thinking.

We never had a bipod on our M40A1, yet we consistently supported the front of the rifle with artificial support. To the point, we would rather use the shoulder of our spotter than consider shooting it slung up. I did not qualify using a rifle with just a sling and no bipod unsupported prone, I used a support even though there was no organic method.

Tactical Rifles are not designed to shoot slung up, it's a LEGACY SKILL and skills reside in the bottom of the toolbox.

 

[...]

I should have stated that my background is in NRA prone shooting..... where the whole game is essentially slung shooting..

But I agree, outside of NRA competition .... there is Limited value to slung shooting

 

[j-huskey]

If we are going to discuss current match and target shooting skills with tactical rifles in a non two way range situation, maybe legacy skills can stay in the bottom of the tool box.

Legacy skills are still and always will be the basic beginning, building blocks, foundation for any shooter and I strongly disagree that legacy skills belong in the bottom of the tool box.

When everything goes south, there is no time, and distance isnt your friend, and it's not a match or target range, the support hand just might be an essential component of actively getting the "working rifle" into play, rather a support component of a sporting event.

I have seen more people trained in the way implicated in posts 1-12 miss live moving targets almost every time because they are trying to get into a position "someone" taught them and basically "froze" their thinking process into,

Instead of their whole body and both hands actively manipulating the rifle into action quickly, and firing, using what Frank refers to as legacy skills.

The sling was designed first as a carrying strap, hasty sling was an aid to legacy skills to kill a battlefield opponent, or a game animal in field conditions, then competition slung was a competition tool for higher points,
in the days when emphasis was still on the shooter using body, arms, and hands as active components of manipulating the weapon, keeping training geared to rapid weapon presentation to a live target needing killing.

Many competitions and training schools today are not based on this thought process.

Legacy skills will never be obsolete.

IF the rifle fit to the shooter is not set up to first teach legacy skills, then is makes teaching any other mode much more difficult.
Rifle fit and and "fit to function" is absolutely critical for success, otherwise you fight the rifle.
That is a lose lose.

 

[Precision Underground]

If we are going to discuss current match and target shooting skills with tactical rifles in a non two way range situation, maybe legacy skills can stay in the bottom of the tool box.

Legacy skills are still and always will be the basic beginning, building blocks, foundation for any shooter and I strongly disagree that legacy skills belong in the bottom of the tool box.

When everything goes south, there is no time, and distance isnt your friend, and it's not a match or target range, the support hand just might be an essential component of actively getting the "working rifle" into play, rather a support component of a sporting event.

I have seen more people trained in the way implicated in posts 1-12 miss live moving targets almost every time because they are trying to get into a position "someone" taught them and basically "froze" their thinking process into,

Instead of their whole body and both hands actively manipulating the rifle into action quickly, and firing, using what Frank refers to as legacy skills.

The sling was designed first as a carrying strap, hasty sling was an aid to legacy skills to kill a battlefield opponent, or a game animal in field conditions, then competition slung was a competition tool for higher points,
in the days when emphasis was still on the shooter using body, arms, and hands as active components of manipulating the weapon, keeping training geared to rapid weapon presentation to a live target needing killing.

Many competitions and training schools today are not based on this thought process.

Legacy skills will never be obsolete.

IF the rifle fit to the shooter is not set up to first teach legacy skills, then is makes teaching any other mode much more difficult.
Rifle fit and and "fit to function" is absolutely critical for success, otherwise you fight the rifle.
That is a lose lose.

Are you talking slung shooting specifically? What would be your ideal order of teaching legacy skills before teaching more modern bipod/artificial support techniques?

 

[j-huskey]

Are you talking slung shooting specifically?

NO. On a 1-10 scale, slung shooting rates in at a half point, not a full number.

What would be your ideal order of teaching legacy skills before teaching more modern bipod/artificial support techniques?

What you refer to as "more modern", support tactics began as a dumbing down tactic in military sniping.
It was too slow to teach legacy skills to new recruits and get classes out into the field, so "they" taught, use sandbags (or the poor man's benchrest) to establish supported position rather than using body strength and triangulated arm and body holds to establish support.
That allowed emphasis on BRASS (breath, relax, aim, sight, squeeze) and getting accurate shots off with something besides the shooter holding the rifle.
The school taught carrying empty sandbags to field positions, filling the bag, build positions, shoot the enemy, and exfil. You could leave the bags filled if it was the fastest move, or you dumped the bag, erased your tracks, and took the empty bag with you...
The Brits taught making bipods and tripods out of broomsticks, and some schools used arrow shafts. Then there were Harris bipods, up to the specialty bags you now see in PRS.

Using support methods is still the fastest method of teaching beginners, but, any shooter who only knows "supports" is handicapped when that's all they know.

I use the support method to begin teaching legacy skills, and then show the student where it fails them, based on a number of real world shootings, and advance from there, into legacy skills that allow to, in the most extreme example, naked, pick up a working rifle and get a killing hit in 3 seconds.

A shooter with that ability is a much better prepared individual than one who depends on a bipod and bag, and hopefully terrain that allows bipod, bag, or a rest's use.

 

[Fig]

I typically shoot offhand, standing or kneeling, sling support whenever I’m on a stalk. Thats about the only time I use it, but I definitely prefer to have my elbow looped into a sling rather than not.

Supported, sandbag or otherwise, is simply a better, more stable position. IMHO you build the best (most stable) position with what you have, and get as low as you can. Nothing to argue about. I know guys who clean stages throwing their bag over the RRS tripod rather than locking into the AS rail. They’re good, and the bag is just as stable. Perhaps I’m a cur, it to me the value of a technique or skill is ONLY measured in the impacts it generates.

Sling shooting fits in to a greater or lesser extent depending on what you’re doing.

 

[Precision Underground]

What you refer to as "more modern", support tactics began as a dumbing down tactic in military sniping.
It was too slow to teach legacy skills to new recruits and get classes out into the field, so "they" taught, use sandbags (or the poor man's benchrest) to establish supported position rather than using body strength and triangulated arm and body holds to establish support.
That allowed emphasis on BRASS (breath, relax, aim, sight, squeeze) and getting accurate shots off with something besides the shooter holding the rifle.
The school taught carrying empty sandbags to field positions, filling the bag, build positions, shoot the enemy, and exfil. You could leave the bags filled if it was the fastest move, or you dumped the bag, erased your tracks, and took the empty bag with you...
The Brits taught making bipods and tripods out of broomsticks, and some schools used arrow shafts. Then there were Harris bipods, up to the specialty bags you now see in PRS.

Using support methods is still the fastest method of teaching beginners, but, any shooter who only knows "supports" is handicapped when that's all they know.

I use the support method to begin teaching legacy skills, and then show the student where it fails them, based on a number of real world shootings, and advance from there, into legacy skills that allow to, in the most extreme example, naked, pick up a working rifle and get a killing hit in 3 seconds.

A shooter with that ability is a much better prepared individual than one who depends on a bipod and bag, and hopefully terrain that allows bipod, bag, or a rest's use.

What specifically are the legacy skills you are teaching that others are missing with artificial support? Honest question.

I ask because once I got good with a bipod and rear bag all of my shooting got better. Barricade, sitting, kneeling, propped against a tree, etc... It's like once I found the right feel and pressures in my right hand and shoulder it carried over to almost any position I go to.

 

[j-huskey]

What specifically are the legacy skills you are teaching that others are missing with artificial support? Honest question.

I ask because once I got good with a bipod and rear bag all of my shooting got better. Barricade, sitting, kneeling, propped against a tree, etc... It's like once I found the right feel and pressures in my right hand and shoulder it carried over to almost any position I go to.

Fundamentals, post 1, old school. Without the bag or bipod, using your body and both hands, moving away from the crutch affect of supports and refining or mastering fundamentals "manual human".

You appear to have grasped that based on your posting.

Many instructors dont teach "past" mechanical support and the student never grasps fundamentals non mechanical support, in "manual human".

I work a lot of students in "manual human" finding that "spot and feel" you mention, and that's the best way I can try to answer your question.

 

[Lowlight]

It’s not realistic to teach it anymore, it’s a time and effort thing.

When I did 6 day classes at RO yes we did, but most now are 3 days or less. Teaching sling shooting is time consuming and you’d never see repeat business. First time you spend 4+ hours just to get started and then they see limited applications your class just died.

Things change, and context matters.

When talking the fundamentals in the classroom I show the original intent, sling vs bipod. Unsupported vs supported. Do you want to attend a class that teaches a sling unsupported or a bipod with recoil management?

Legacy skills take time, very few people are investing the same amount of time. If a guy comes to my class and I show you how to sling up vs a Free recoil class with a bag and balanced rifle, the FR crowd will improve faster and if both groups attend a PR held next week, the sling guy is at a disadvantage. It’s slow.

Instead you teach the basics within the context of modern use.