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Gas vs bolt gun?
- Thread starter louu
- Start date
Gas guns are harder to drive because of the buffer and bolt carrier inertia going back AND forward for each shot. But hey, you can miss faster with a semi-auto. Same concept with a semi-auto pistol versus a revolver...with a bolt action or single-action revolver, you have less moving parts...ie the trigger tripping a sear and a firing pin or hammer moving forward when you break the shot, recoil is just from the bullet leaving the barrel.
Same reason the trend has migrated towards 6mm and heavy rifles. Can you do the same with a 14lb 6.5? Yep. But you work harder for it.
precision requires reduction of variables. bolt action introduces less variables than semi auto action thus easier to isolate down and wring consistency out.
Another important factor that hasn't allready been mentioned is lock time.
I'm not aware of any semiauto fire control that even comes close to the short lock time of a bolt action rifle.
I'm not aware of any semiauto fire control that even comes close to the short lock time of a bolt action rifle.
I think it depends all on what the goal is. If you are talking about competition use or military use or any other number of scenarios each has a benefit.
If you are talking about various forms of competition it's going to depend on what the competition really is. If we are talking bench rest shooting that's a completely different animal than say PRS or whatever.
Bolt guns are actually a lot more diverse than semi auto guns. When is the last time you saw a semi auto 6 dasher or something like that? With a semi auto you are confined largely to a predetermined caliber combination that have had the kinks worked out to make it run (hopefully) whereas with a bolt gun you are not seeing those kinds of restrictions really.
Also I think a lot of the top competitors realize that less moving parts means more reliability in adverse competitive conditions. That said gas guns are used all over the world by the military in what I can call 'adverse conditions' as well. That said, the aims are totally different between taking out a terrorist and shooting a steel plate.
Also like it or not those who are skilled in rifle building can make the tolerances on a bolt gun way more than they can on a semi automatic. That's not saying a bolt gun is always more accurate. Not at all. But if you are comparing a top of the line X to a top of the line Y you can built bolt guns to extremely tight specifications. That said it's not always the arrow. Most of the time it's the Indian. If you took a top tier shooter and gave him a decent gas gun he will kick ass against a mediocre shooter with a top tier bolt gun.
I would say most people never get to a level where they genuinely see advantages of one over the other. The simple ability to create ammo is independent of almost any rifle design but is needed to get to that top level. True, people can make great ammo, and shoot 1/4 minute groups, but when you start stretching that out to 800 or 1000 yards it's a different game. I should also mention that brass can get mangled in a gas gun and in a bolt gun ammo can be pushed to 'that next level' without a lot of serious concerns (up to a point).
Long story short most people only after they get to a certain level of competency will have a real world benefit to using one system over another.
If you are talking about various forms of competition it's going to depend on what the competition really is. If we are talking bench rest shooting that's a completely different animal than say PRS or whatever.
Bolt guns are actually a lot more diverse than semi auto guns. When is the last time you saw a semi auto 6 dasher or something like that? With a semi auto you are confined largely to a predetermined caliber combination that have had the kinks worked out to make it run (hopefully) whereas with a bolt gun you are not seeing those kinds of restrictions really.
Also I think a lot of the top competitors realize that less moving parts means more reliability in adverse competitive conditions. That said gas guns are used all over the world by the military in what I can call 'adverse conditions' as well. That said, the aims are totally different between taking out a terrorist and shooting a steel plate.
Also like it or not those who are skilled in rifle building can make the tolerances on a bolt gun way more than they can on a semi automatic. That's not saying a bolt gun is always more accurate. Not at all. But if you are comparing a top of the line X to a top of the line Y you can built bolt guns to extremely tight specifications. That said it's not always the arrow. Most of the time it's the Indian. If you took a top tier shooter and gave him a decent gas gun he will kick ass against a mediocre shooter with a top tier bolt gun.
I would say most people never get to a level where they genuinely see advantages of one over the other. The simple ability to create ammo is independent of almost any rifle design but is needed to get to that top level. True, people can make great ammo, and shoot 1/4 minute groups, but when you start stretching that out to 800 or 1000 yards it's a different game. I should also mention that brass can get mangled in a gas gun and in a bolt gun ammo can be pushed to 'that next level' without a lot of serious concerns (up to a point).
Long story short most people only after they get to a certain level of competency will have a real world benefit to using one system over another.
I shoot a gas gun at the club match level (at least I have been this year), and the scores tell the story plainly. Even if you're not shooting to the capability of your equipment, it doesn't take many matches to see that gas guns are shooting at a disadvantage.
The question is simple... Bolt actions are easier to build into precise rifles, and are easier to shoot well.
Oh, and AR-15 style gas guns (small and large, and other) can be had in calibers from 204 ruger, to 243 wssm, to 6mm creedmoor, to 300 WM. I'll be shooting a 6.5 grendel tomorrow, but have a 224 predator and a 308 win in the safe. Yes, there are more wildcats being built into bolt action rifles, but to think that gas guns are all 5.56, 308, or 6.5CM is more than a bit myopic.
yeah, folks can build pretty much whatever they want if they have the time to get the gas/buffer balance right for reliable timing.
although i don't compete, and with my bad knees probably won't, i am disappointed they apparently got rid of the "tactical" division that was limited to 5.56 or 7.62 guns. it just seems more fair to compare apples to apples. i suppose if they has enough shooters it would have survived.
i think something like the 21 gun salute (1 position, 21 targets at various distances 100-600 yards as fast as you can) is something that would be fun to shoot and watch. and it is something i can do without good knees.
We had over 80 shooters at the last club match, and 5 were gas gunners. The top gas gun shooter at this event has switched over to the dark side- at least he was running a broken rifle at the last match. You know, he had to open, load, and lock the thing manually. The horror. I think his score was up from his gas gun, but I'd have to ask him... @Darqusoull13 Why'd you leave us?
PRS still has tac division although there are only 31 members who have a tac score. NRL doesn’t have a tac class.
Aside from other reasons already given here, dollar-for-dollar you can buy more accuracy (and arguably more distance) with a bolt gun.
This. Take an off the rack bolt gun and an off the rack gas gun, for the same cost. See which one shoots better.
can't speak for anyone else, but i wasn't looking for the rifle with the potential for the smallest moa.
i wanted a .308 semi-auto rifle that was as reliable as possible, preferably military proven, that was sub 2 moa with good quality M80 ball ammo that can be bought (normally) for as little as $0.40/round or less in bulk, and sub moa with factory Federal GMM in 168gr. or 175gr. SMK.
i wanted this because where i live, it is possible i won't be able buy one next week, month or year.
once i had a rifle capable of all these things, i was obligated to train myself to use it.
every patriot should own a .308 or equivalent, and my lever gun has some limitations i'd rather not have if it's necessary to defend the homestead.
My opinions, and for the record my go to for everything but small bore is gas guns.
The average shooter will likely shoot a bolt gun better due to a number of factors. Good shooters will be able to shoot a semi as well as they can a bolt gun (this is me). Great shooters can shoot a bolt gun better than a gas gun because they can squeeze all the capabilities and consistently out of the bolt gun the gas gun can’t/doesn’t offer (this is my second daughter).
If you want to shoot really far getting bullets to go faster is going to be a lot easier out of a bolt gun. Also, loading hot is difficult due to magazine capacity restrictions on COAL and you’ll tear up the gun faster if you over charge it.
But, inside of 600 it’s going to take an above average shooter to outshoot me with my gasser and in all likelihood I can shoot a lot faster. All depends on the application and how much time you have.
The average shooter will likely shoot a bolt gun better due to a number of factors. Good shooters will be able to shoot a semi as well as they can a bolt gun (this is me). Great shooters can shoot a bolt gun better than a gas gun because they can squeeze all the capabilities and consistently out of the bolt gun the gas gun can’t/doesn’t offer (this is my second daughter).
If you want to shoot really far getting bullets to go faster is going to be a lot easier out of a bolt gun. Also, loading hot is difficult due to magazine capacity restrictions on COAL and you’ll tear up the gun faster if you over charge it.
But, inside of 600 it’s going to take an above average shooter to outshoot me with my gasser and in all likelihood I can shoot a lot faster. All depends on the application and how much time you have.
The division has not been eliminated
The tactical division isn't any more apples to apples than open division when anyone who wants to do well in open builds a rifle in the same (or equivalent) cartridge that most everyone else is using.
Caliber/scope/gun brand isn't why new shooters get smoked.
Unless you find a private seller, you can forget finding anything with the letters "AR" in front of it. By your description here, you've narrowed it down to one of the M1A varieties. There aren't that many guns out there that can shoot 7.62x51 (M80) and .308win equally well. Contrary to popular belief, they are NOT the same cartridge. I have a slew of .308 guns, and the Springfield M1A's are the only ones that don't seem to have any issues shooting both. I can't say that for my other guns. Though, both my M1A's shoot 7.62x51 better than .308win cartridges. Also, the terms "good quality M80 ball ammo" and "$0.40/round or less in bulk" don't fit in the same sentence. Most M80 ammo out there uses bi-metal projectiles. The really good stuff does not.
i am referring to a scar 20s, and by "good quality" i am referring to (for example) serbian PPU, but many scar owners report decent results with 1980s surplus.
The cheapest I can find any M80 right now is about 70 cents/round. New PPU is going to run you about 70 - 75 cents/round. And, that's not counting shipping. The new PPU is good stuff and not-bi-metal. My 7.62x51 guns seem to shoot the PMC X-TAC a bit better. You pay about a nickel more per round for that though.
Prepare to spend a lot of money to get a “military proven semi auto that’s sub 2MOA with military M80ball.“
yeah that sucks right now.
you used to be able to get 1000 rds of PPU from sgammo for around $525+shipping and i bought a bunch when it was even cheaper.
those same battle packs are $724 today.
It is your money, but I’m not seeing the logic in spending $4k on a primo gas gun in order to shoot cheap ammo. You don’t need a .308 to defend your home, either. I’d reevaluate and think what you really want to do with this rifle. There’s no reason why you couldn’t spend $2k and buy decent ammo.
It's not so much the gun as it is the ammo. M80 performance varies quite a bit between manufacturers and different lots. I've found the more accurate M80 ammo is from manufacturers that build to M80 specs but with more consistent bullet weights, cases, and powder charges.
A couple disadvantages from a competition standpoint - the biggest is trigger and lock time, I have a top dollar AR trigger that I’ve spent time tuning up and it still doesn’t touch the unmodified factory trigger on the 30 year old bolt action I also shoot. That’s a light year behind a Timney I have in another rifle and a light year and a half behind the Triggertech.
From a safety/rules standpoint, it’s easier to open a bolt when moving than take the mag out and lock a semi auto back.
Finally, the recoil impulse is easier to manage on a bolt. I don’t think the mechanical accuracy difference between bolts and gas guns is nearly as much as people think it is out of a rest, but between recoil control and triggers the practical accuracy difference is significant.
From a safety/rules standpoint, it’s easier to open a bolt when moving than take the mag out and lock a semi auto back.
Finally, the recoil impulse is easier to manage on a bolt. I don’t think the mechanical accuracy difference between bolts and gas guns is nearly as much as people think it is out of a rest, but between recoil control and triggers the practical accuracy difference is significant.
logic? you don't understand my powers of rationalization
csb time?
i didn't buy the scar for "home defense", but rather i bought it to fill a gap in my general defense and survival capabilities.
been shooting handguns seriously since the 80s, and my primary home defense weapon is a handgun (small condo like place).
also shot a lots of clay out in the desert on riding trips, so shotguns have also been part of my shooting for decades.
12ga. buckshot and slugs are my secondary defense options, good for well past 50yds and beyond capable for my "home defense".
but my only centerfire rifle was by dad's Winchester model 88 (in .308 Win) with a weaver scope. good accuracy, kicks like a motherfucker.
i'd trust it to hit anything inside 150yds, but with a 4rd magazine, it isn't really part of any home defense strategy except as backup if there is nothing else.
when i said "defend the homestead", i meant defend ourselves beyond the confines of our residence to the surrounding land.
so, why did i need a semi-auto rifle all of a sudden. not to mention such an expensive one?
first thing Mr. Poors did after my daughter graduated college (and i had paid it off) was retire my 25 year old P226 and replace it with a new one along with a P229 backup that i had wanted forever.
i also wanted a semi-auto rifle while it was still legal, basically just because libtards didn't want me to have one.
my wife asked me where i would even shoot the rifle, since i didn't even ride dirtbikes anymore and we don't live close to any outdoor ranges.
i told her that it wasn't for "fun" but as a precaution against tyranny, and to give the finger to democrat scum. it was my patriotic duty. and zombies.
she was right though, i would have little opportunity to get out to a real range, and so she sort of guilted me into saying i would only get one.
"i would only get one." that was an important statement
don't get me wrong, my wife doesn't control the purse strings, and she never tells me what i can or can't buy. i am the cheap one.
but the informal promise to only buy one opened up my own devious rationalization method for a larger budget than i had been previously considering.
t took another 2 years before i pulled the trigger. during that 2 years, i researched 100s of options, from home builds to bullpups.
but i still had no idea what i would get. KAC, LMT, Tavor? LWRC?
i came up with basic requirements to narrow down the search.
7.62x51mm (.308) - because of reasons cited, and i already owned a .308.
Piston driven - arguments put aside for another time.
"military or law enforcement" proven reliability and durability.
effective to 800+ - to extend my range as far as practically possible (unless i just suck).
"easy to shoot follow up shots" - i had to be able to rely on volume over accuracy. i had no idea if proficiency with handguns would carry over.
i even started a thread in another forum for "One Gun". what would be reliable, durable, and capable of shooting thousands of rounds on target 0-800 yards away without malfunction or requiring cleaning to keep it running in a zombie invasion, shooting M80 or factory match ammo?
the answer i came up with (for me) after all that research was the MK20 SSR.
everything i read told me this was the easiest semi-auto to rain fire down on an enemy 800 yards away with little experience.
FN® MK 20 SSR | FN® Firearms
Get long-range precision and close-in protection with the long range sniper rifle, MK 20 SSR.
fnamerica.com
but of course, i couldn't buy one, even if i didn't live in commiefornia. so pipe dream and i kept looking.
until FN released the limited edition Scar 20S!
but of course, all of them were sold immediately to FN VIPs, so still a pipe dream.
but then one of the packages came up for sale on calguns!
for $11k!
no thanks. even i could not rationalize $11k, lol. still a pipe dream.but then somebody got a hold of one from a VIP and his fiance had a fit. he was desperate to sell asap for MSRP.
boom! i ended up with a Scar 20S because i had no time to talk myself out of it. i told myself i could sell it for a profit.
i wouldn't actually shoot a limited edition 1 of 200 collectable rifle would i?
hahahahahahahahahaha!
of course i had no idea FN would go on to sell thousands...oh well <shrugs>
little did i know this purchase would lead to so many more things i didn't know i "needed".
i think for a complete newb like me, the recoil impulse of a gas gun, one like a scar with the massive bolt carrier in particular, was less of a problem because i had no experience or technique based upon the bolt action rifles, or even a regular AR-10.
it isn't "odd", "different" or "violent" to me, it is just soft. whatever the limitations, it doesn't keep me from shooting accurately enough for my purposes.
btw, the 2-stage super scar trigger on the Scar 20S is pretty good to me.
One thing about those 10-12 lb rifles. They're not easy to wield and "run through the jungle" with. Don't get me wrong, I have three heavy long-barreled rifles, and I like shooting them. But, the one I have at arm's reach when my alarm says I have unannounced unfriendly company coming up my road is an ultra-lite AR10 clone with a good optic and 18" barrel that weighs less than most AR15s and is plenty good out to 1,000 yards. Fast-handling and maneuverability is important to me. Plus, I don't want them to get too close before I announce a welcome. And, I might want to do that from the roof of my barn, or running and gunning through my fruit tree orchard.
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yeah, i am too old and broken down to run around, even with a 7 pound rifle.
no, i'll let the young guys run around with their lightweight small calibers and i will provide cover fire from here. i'd only be a liability on foot.
After working out in the 100 degree heat today, I've decided I'm almost there myself LOL!
Top shot at local match today hit 71 of 74. Bolt gun. Only 4 of 74 shots were beyond 700 yards. 3 of 74 were < ~500. Top gas gun hit 39. Would the top shooter have hit more than 39 with that gas gun? As likely as not. Would the top gas gunner have won shooting the winners bolt gun? Somehow I doubt it. I don’t know what calibers of either gun. But, the top shooters shoot bolt guns for a reason.
Are the cartridges themselves dimensionally different? How about the chamber drawings?
According to SAAMI publication Z299.4-2015, the 308 Winchester's MAP (maximum average chamber pressure) is 62,000 PSI. And according to the Army's Ammunition Data Sheets (TM 43-0001-27) the maximum chamber pressure for both 7.62X51 M59 and M80 ball is 50,000 PSI.
SAAMI Z299.4 also has cartridge and chamber dimensions. I don't have the military 7.62X51 chamber dimensions drawing to compare.
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.308 is like 5.56
7.62x51 is like. 223
I don't know anything about dimensions but that's the basic parallel as I understand it.
I'm looking for factual answers backed up by source documents, not internet folklore.
the barrel of the Scar20S is clearly marked for 7.62x51mm, however match ammo in 7.62x51mm is difficult to find for me any many others that don't have a hook up for it when it is available (i'll take any tips). instead we are mostly forced to use .308 match ammo, and most of us can shoot groups under 1 moa with FGMM in 175gr. SMK. i have heard people have done even better with the real thing.
i found no difference in accuracy between aguila .308 and aguila 7.62x51mm (with me behind the rifle.)
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No folklore here. Google is your friend.
An Official Journal Of The NRA | .308 Win. vs. 7.62 NATO: What's the Difference?
There's not a lot of big differences with .308 vs 7.62 nato, but they are there.
The pressure listed for 7.62 in that article is wrong. What else did they get wrong?No folklore here. Google is your friend.
An Official Journal Of The NRA | .308 Win. vs. 7.62 NATO: What's the Difference?
There's not a lot of big differences with .308 vs 7.62 nato, but they are there.www.shootingillustrated.com
Milspec allows for a .002 difference in length from base of the neck to base of the cartridge. I now have three 308win guns that won't even chamber a 7.62 NATO round. I also have an HK91 that will blow primers out of their pockets if you shoot .308win in it.
do you know where i can get some shipped to california? i want to try it for sure.
My friend, that I don't know. I only keep noticing that the online sources I buy from say they don't ship to CA. I hope you find a source that does. What you might also do is try and find some that would meet the M118LR spec but not advertise it. It would seem to me the most important components would be the 175 grain SMK match bullet and match grade 7.62x51 case. IMI makes a round like this. Though, there have been some complaints about it, all my 7.62x51 guns shoot it with no problems, and is the best ammo out of my M1A NM. The only problem is, the $1.10 per round price tag. But, that's still .20/round cheaper than the equivalent FGMM and my M1A guns shoot it better.
500 round case - 7.62x51 NATO 175 Grain BTHP SMK OTM Razor Core Match Ammo by IMI | SGAmmo.com
SGAmmo.com, bulk ammo sold by the case at the best lowest prices for sale anywhere online
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That's why I bout my new gun because the only PRS style match near me is a gas gun only match. There's F-class here but I have no interest in that.
the biggest issue is how most of the shooters, specifically newer ones are addressing their techniques/skills
theyre chasing the points as skills validation...lighter triggers, 10 lbs of extra weight, free recoiling as much as possible...it adds up to points, but soon as those things go away...theyre in a bind
take their triggers and turn them up to 3lbs...give them a 308, suppressed instead of a brake, remove the weights...scores would drop just as fast id bet
you have to actually shoot a gas gun, cant just sit it there and touch the button...someone used to doing the same thing on a bolt gun, will shoot either very similar long as both guns are capable, which isnt as easy to do on a gasser with all the extra moving parts and pieces, but its very doable
I have a very accurate gas gun:
Craddock/Rock Creek 6.7T 224Valk
Other good parts
I can shoot groups like this with it all day long:
At my local match I have won the gas gun division a couple of times. Best I’ve done overall was about halfway up the standings. When you get in a match setting and your fundamentals understandably don’t remain perfectly perfect, as you’re shooting positionally and/or under a time crunch, a bolt gun is a lot more forgiving.
In addition, I would guess inherent accuracy potential is about a quarter of an MOA less with a bolt gun versus a gas gun.
Craddock/Rock Creek 6.7T 224Valk
Other good parts
I can shoot groups like this with it all day long:
At my local match I have won the gas gun division a couple of times. Best I’ve done overall was about halfway up the standings. When you get in a match setting and your fundamentals understandably don’t remain perfectly perfect, as you’re shooting positionally and/or under a time crunch, a bolt gun is a lot more forgiving.
In addition, I would guess inherent accuracy potential is about a quarter of an MOA less with a bolt gun versus a gas gun.
When I had all this gear I had to elaborate on the subject.
Same time and date, same ammunition, different rifles:
www.thefirearmblog.com
Same time and date, same ammunition, different rifles:
Precision Rifle Series: Gas Gun vs Bolt Action - Which is better? -
Gas Gun vs. Bolt-Action. Can a gas gun beat a bolt-action in terms of precision, or is the author on very thin ice here? Let's see!
www.thefirearmblog.com
love them both for what they are , get some of both semi auto , and bolt action use them both and tell us what you liked or disliked . Why choose between get both .
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