Gunsmithing Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

[eboggs]

Should i request to have aluminum pillars installed on my new stock?

or can i do it myself and (save money) and not sacrafice workmanship?

If i bed it later..it seems most put pillars in at that time?

Can i bed it (if neccissary with the pillars already installed?)

JW if its worth the extra $

Thanks,

Ethan

 

[nashlaw]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

I have done it myself and it looks like poop compared to a professional installation. Of course, I am the same guy that loses bottom metal screws, has made a glue-in out of a simple bedding job, etc.

If you have a drill press, it should not be much of a problem to get a functional job done. I just get misty-eyed when I see the beautiful work GAP and KMW have done for me.

 

[18Echo]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

I've been researching this extensively because I thought pillars were a MUST for bedding and accurizing a rifle. Then I read a long piece by Kelly McMillan who stated that pillars are good for wood stocks that can compress but in his and other quality synthetic stocks they are not really needed to to the materials, strength, etc., just a good bedding job.

Now this will probably send some people into fits, and I know very little about bedding period which is why I was researching and found the article, but it sounded good to me and made sense when you read it.

The article is HERE, it's 11 printed pages and kelly starts on page 6 or about halfway down the web page. It's a very informative read i thought.

 

[7mmRM]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

The fiberglass in McMs will/can compress too. IMO, pillars are a must.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

If ordering a McMillan Stock just have the holes drilled out 5/8" and add your own pillars. Like 7MMRM said, pillars are a must.

 

[dmgreene]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

I make and use my own pillars. I like to fit my pillars so that the bottom metal is a perfect fit to the action before action is ever bedded. Attach the pillars to the action and glue the pillars in and bed it all at one time.

 

[18Echo]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> pillars are a must. </div></div>


Below is from Kelly McMillan:

<span style="font-style: italic">One last item on pillar bedding. I'm often asked by customers who would
like to bed their own stock but lack the confidence to try "pillar"
bedding, "Do you need pillars?" Because of the construction techniques
and materials we use in making our stocks it is not necessary to use
pillars. With the exception of benchrest stocks which are almost always
glued in and use a lighter fill in the action area than all other
stocks,
pillars are unnecessary. Test have proven that the materials we use to
fill the action area of of stocks have less than 1% compression at 100lb
psi. What that means is that there is not way you are going to be able
to torque your guards screws tight enough to compress the material under
the action. Why do we put them in every bedding job we do when
installing our stocks? Because it's state of the art. It's what has
become the excepted way to do things. It's not a fad. It is a valuable
technique that is necessary when bedding stocks that use a different
method of construction (which almost all other synthetic manufacturers
do). It's just that with ours it is not really necessary.
</span>

Like I said before, what I know about bedding you could fit in a shot glass, but after reading the whole article that Kelly wrote I find myself asking if it's really necessary, or the last "next best thing" that everyone is all hot on.

I don't have enough trust in my skills to pillar bed in a DIY situation, which is why I'm keen on this article and just bedding. Maybe I'll do what he talks about in his article and just make DIY pillars out of the bedding compound.

 

[MinorDamage]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

The main deal is not inducing stress into the action. If you use pillars and then bed the action PROPERLY you will have a nice stress free bedding job that will mate up right every time. If any portion of the fiberglass compresses (it can) it will induce stress into the action and may not give you the best results. But seriously, if you do it yourself you are going to cost yourself the extra money just on the pillars. If a smith does it it will not be that much more. Best to err on the side of caution and have a bedding job that will last a long time. my $.02

Josh

 

[KAZ]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

I found a killer tiger stripe maple stock that was a copy of the original 40X stocks. It came unfinished so it required several(10) coats of Tung oil. I thought about "learning" how to pillar bed and would have enjoyed being able to do the job myself. After looking into the process I received some good advice, and that is to find the craftsman that everyone recommends near you and deliver your rifle for a professional job. The rifle came back to me in approx a week and the pillar bedding job is flawless. He said to torque the action screws to 40 inch lbs when I took the action in and out. He also showed me a tool that he used to assure that the barreled action was perfectly centered in the stock. If, it doesn't pass this final test he starts over again. After I applied three layers I installed the action, and fired some test groups which were perfect. This went on several times until I got the finish I wanted. So, I can take my rifle out of the stock with no fear thanks to a perfect bedding job. Not trying to dissuade you from learning a new skill, but the charge was less than a $100, and I didn't take the chance of ruining a rare stock.

 

[ArcticLight]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

I"ll see if I can dig up the pillar photo's of my M40a1 stock -

You should get it done, they will be rounded and fit to the action - doing it yourself without experience will absolutely be a problem down the road...

My smith uses 9/16" stainless.

Is the Rem 700 aluminum action or steel?

 

[exhogflyer]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

where can one obtain the pillars?

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 18Echo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> pillars are a must. </div></div>


Below is from Kelly McMillan:

<span style="font-style: italic">One last item on pillar bedding. I'm often asked by customers who would
like to bed their own stock but lack the confidence to try "pillar"
bedding, "Do you need pillars?" Because of the construction techniques
and materials we use in making our stocks it is not necessary to use
pillars. With the exception of benchrest stocks which are almost always
glued in and use a lighter fill in the action area than all other
stocks,
pillars are unnecessary. Test have proven that the materials we use to
fill the action area of of stocks have less than 1% compression at 100lb
psi. What that means is that there is not way you are going to be able
to torque your guards screws tight enough to compress the material under
the action. Why do we put them in every bedding job we do when
installing our stocks? Because it's state of the art. It's what has
become the excepted way to do things. It's not a fad. It is a valuable
technique that is necessary when bedding stocks that use a different
method of construction (which almost all other synthetic manufacturers
do). It's just that with ours it is not really necessary.
</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Like I said before, what I know about bedding you could fit in a shot glass, but after reading the whole article that Kelly wrote I find myself asking if it's really necessary, or the last "next best thing" that everyone is all hot on. </span></span>

I don't have enough trust in my skills to pillar bed in a DIY situation, which is why I'm keen on this article and just bedding. Maybe I'll do what he talks about in his article and just make DIY pillars out of the bedding compound.

</div></div>

So what’s your point? You highlight me saying that pillars are a must then you cut/paste an article saying different.

Do you not think it's possible for fiberglass to compress over time?

Some guy’s kill me, receiver truing isn’t necessary and now pillar bedding is just a fad.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Exhogflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">where can one obtain the pillars? </div></div>

For the DIY'r Sinclair has adjustable pillars made by score high. They're GTG.

 

[7mmRM]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some guy’s kill me, receiver truing isn’t necessary and now pillar bedding is just a fad.


</div></div>

Im guessing you didnt get the memo.........................LOL!!!!

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 7mmRM</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Some guy’s kill me, receiver truing isn’t necessary and now pillar bedding is just a fad.


</div></div>

Im guessing you didnt get the memo.........................LOL!!!! </div></div>

Yea, I missed that one for sure.

 

[7mmRM]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

Dont worry... I just got it too... (grin)

 

[18Echo]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 18Echo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: wnroscoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> pillars are a must. </div></div>


Below is from Kelly McMillan:

<span style="font-style: italic">One last item on pillar bedding. I'm often asked by customers who would
like to bed their own stock but lack the confidence to try "pillar"
bedding, "Do you need pillars?" Because of the construction techniques
and materials we use in making our stocks it is not necessary to use
pillars. With the exception of benchrest stocks which are almost always
glued in and use a lighter fill in the action area than all other
stocks,
pillars are unnecessary. Test have proven that the materials we use to
fill the action area of of stocks have less than 1% compression at 100lb
psi. What that means is that there is not way you are going to be able
to torque your guards screws tight enough to compress the material under
the action. Why do we put them in every bedding job we do when
installing our stocks? Because it's state of the art. It's what has
become the excepted way to do things. It's not a fad. It is a valuable
technique that is necessary when bedding stocks that use a different
method of construction (which almost all other synthetic manufacturers
do). It's just that with ours it is not really necessary.
</span>

<span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">Like I said before, what I know about bedding you could fit in a shot glass, but after reading the whole article that Kelly wrote I find myself asking if it's really necessary, or the last "next best thing" that everyone is all hot on. </span></span>

I don't have enough trust in my skills to pillar bed in a DIY situation, which is why I'm keen on this article and just bedding. Maybe I'll do what he talks about in his article and just make DIY pillars out of the bedding compound.

</div></div>

So what’s your point? You highlight me saying that pillars are a must then you cut/paste an article saying different.

Do you not think it's possible for fiberglass to compress over time?

Some guy’s kill me, receiver truing isn’t necessary and now pillar bedding is just a fad.


</div></div>

Mr. Roscoe I'm not calling into question your knowledge or abilities so don't get sensitive, I know you're a very good gunsmith from the work you've displayed on this site.

I stated that I don't know much about bedding a rifle and was doing as much research as I could about the subject before I try a DIY with an expensive stock and massaged over action.

I provided a point of view about the subject that consisted not only of the point of view but also of the reasoning behind it.

You provided "pillars are a must" with no explanation as to why you thought so and then obviously became upset about it, thinking mistakenly that I was calling in to question your expertise when I cut and pasted that article onto this thread.

If we can't discuss, like gentleman, different points of view or explore different methods of doing things for this sport without getting upset and taking things to a personal level than this might as well be another AR15.com.

I think a better post from your last may have started out with, "Pillars are a must because........."

I apologize if you think I was questioning your skills, I wasn't. I'll make it a point to be more careful in the future and not post in the gunsmithing forum as I'm not a gunsmith. Merry Christmas.

 

[Clark]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

It is all but impossible to measure any accuracy improvement from chasing action threads.

It is hard to measure the accuracy improvement from glass bedding.

It is easy to measure the accuracy improvement from tightening the action screws.

The maximum radial and/or tangential expansion of wood as function of equilibrium moisture content, that is itself an S shaped transform of relative humidity over months of exposure, is ~ 4% ~ 7%.
The length of an action screw is ~ 1".
The change is a wood stock's dimension between receiver and bottom metal could then, theoretically approach .040" to .070".
A 1/4" screw stressed with 1000 pounds of tension will only stretch .002". The gun might fall apart if the wood did not have elastic compression.

What does it all mean?
Pillars are worth it in wood stocks.

I make pillars from 3/8" tubing from MSC part number 01414556:
Metal - Tubing Inside Diameter: 0.305 In. Outside Diameter: 3/8 Wall Thickness: 0.035 In. Length Ft.: 6 Material: Alloy Steel - 1010
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=01414556

The Aluminum and brass pillars have dissimilar metals problems.
The stainless steel tubing is not as easy to machine in the lathe.

The 1010 steel tubing is cheap and easy to machine.

Like Wagner:
http://www272.pair.com/stevewag/turk/turkbed1.html
I score the pillar with a hack saw so the epoxy will grip the pillar.

I also score the hole in the stock with a 7/16-14 tap, so the epoxy will grip the stock.

 

[wnroscoe]

Re: Get Pillars installed...or DIY?

18,

Thin skin I have not, no problem. I was just curious as to the point you were trying to make.

The reason I feel pillars are a must is because any material used in the manufacture of stocks is softer than steel or aluminum. With the constant pressure of torqued guard screws stocks will compress over time whether they be BR or Tactical stocks. When the compression of said material is present the torque value of the guard screws is compromised resulting in movement between the receiver and stock. I started doing my own stock work about 20 years or so ago when I was still sending out my Gunsmithing. I noticed that with either wood or fiber glass stocks over time the bottom metal would put impressions into the bottom of the stock where it had been in constant, torqued contact. I also noticed a POI vs POA change during the year as humidity rose and fell. Up until this point I had skim bedded only but tried pillar bedding as a possible cure to the compression issue.

It worked, stock compression was gone and POA vs POI remained same/same. There are rifles here locally that I pillar bedded several years ago, their POI has remained the same year after year.

Based on my own personal experiences and observations pillar bedding is a must. I admit I have high expectations and standards where precision rifles are concerned and base 99% of my comments and opinions on that. I'm sure there's some one that will say they've had just as good a result with skim bedding as I have with pillar bedding.

Remember, there's more than one way to skin a cat or build a rifle. Once we get past the machining and mechanics of it all it's more about personal preference. Very few things are etched in stone and opinions vary. For me, my way works great and has given me very good and repeatable results. I'm not interested in changing anything but its good to see the opinion of others...................even if they're wrong

(just kidding on that last comment)