Suppressors Getting around a County Sheriff

P

PFCSkoug

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Apr 10, 2008
268
4
35
SE Wisconsin
#1
Hey,
Ive heard that there is a way to get around a county sheriff who doesn't want to sign off on a suppressor. I'm not sure if this is true or what. Any info is appreciated. Sorry if this has been brought up before but my searches where unfruitful. By the way i live in southern CO

Thanks
 
#4
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

You can have the chief of police sign or head of a state police post. I havent went the trust route yet but seems to be the way to go. Check out the BATF web site or talk to a class 3 dealer in your area. You can also due a LLC but dont know much about it.
 
#6
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

If you can't get signoff, then the Trust or LLC is the way to go.

One attorney sold me on a Trust. Another experienced attorney explained why the LLC is the way to go and the Trust could have problems down the road.

Whatever you decide to do, find an experienced firearms attorney.

And check with local class 3 dealers and ask them what their experiences have been.
 
#7
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

A local dealer should be able to let you know what is the best route to go in your area.
Its their buisness to sell the stuff, so they need to know.
That takes alot of the headache out of the process for you.
You will have to find the dealer to broker the transfer anyway and he will charge you for the transaction.
 
#9
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

Can you explain why he said a Trust might have problems?



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KMCM110</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can't get signoff, then the Trust or LLC is the way to go.

One attorney sold me on a Trust. Another experienced attorney explained why the LLC is the way to go and the Trust could have problems down the road.

Whatever you decide to do, find an experienced firearms attorney.

And check with local class 3 dealers and ask them what their experiences have been. </div></div>
 
#10
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

The trust is the best way to go. No signature, photo, or prints to deal with and for your next item you just print off another 12 pages or so and you are ready to go. The other way you have to jump through all the hoops every time you want to add an NFA item.
 
#11
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

A trust is very easy to do and saves a lot of hassle. You can get the forms online. I paid $39 for the forms on some legalforms.com (or something like that) website. The forms that I found take you through the entire process step by step. I'm sure there are cheaper forms (likely even free), but in my opinion the $39 was money well spent. You insert names of people in the trust and print the paperwork. It was very complete and had great explanations. They had different forms if you are married and if you had children.

I spoke to a couple patients of mine that are lawyers and none of them had any bad things to say about a trust. Not really sure what the poster above was referencing. LLC is also an option, but I think there are tax implications with an LLC.

Just don't use your full name when you make the trust. I set the trust name as my wife's full name and my full name. Getting all of that engraved into a lower is a PIA when building a SBR...

CWJ
 
#12
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

FYI
A trust or LLC transfer cuts your stamp time in half as there is no fingerprint or back ground wait. As of today 8/23/2010 2vs4 months, your mileage may very.

There are pro's and con's to each but most are what if type things.
 
#13
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

Robozero is right.I did mine in a trust and used my whole name "bla bla bla nfa firearms revocable living trust"
I have a long name to add to that, so, It will take a 14 foot tube for my form 1 home made can !!!!!!
 
#15
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DaveWells</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FYI
A trust or LLC transfer cuts your stamp time in half as there is no fingerprint or back ground wait. As of today 8/23/2010 2vs4 months, your mileage may very.

There are pro's and con's to each but most are what if type things. </div></div>


Thats not true at all. When I first got into NFA I sent a form 1 SBR in as an individual, took 7 weeks door to door. Now, I can send about anything in under my Trust and it takes 2-3 months to get back. Things have slowed down dramatically. Really depends on when you catch them in the year. Its not the fact that they take long to approve, it only takes a few minutes. You have to let the paperwork in front of you clear out.
 
#17
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

PFCSkoug,

Make an appointment with your CLEO and explain a few things to him. First he is not responsible for anything when he signs, he is only saying he has no evidence that you are a criminal; he can do a background check to make sure.

Then tell him that if he does not sign, you will use a trust to own the silencer for you. He can know who owns a silencer in his jurisdiction, or he can remain ignorant. His choice. If he is smart, then he will sign.

I made a trust using Quicken Willmaker. Very easy. No sheriff's sig, photo or fingerprints needed. It has not made a difference on the amount of time for approval though.

Ranb
 
#18
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PFCSkoug,

Make an appointment with your CLEO and explain a few things to him. First he is not responsible for anything when he signs, he is only saying he has no evidence that you are a criminal; he can do a background check to make sure.

Then tell him that if he does not sign, you will use a trust to own the silencer for you. He can know who owns a silencer in his jurisdiction, or he can remain ignorant. His choice. If he is smart, then he will sign.

I made a trust using Quicken Willmaker. Very easy. No sheriff's sig, photo or fingerprints needed. It has not made a difference on the amount of time for approval though.

Ranb
</div></div>

Pretty poor advise if you would like to keep the sheriff on your side. Calling him ignorant and then telling him you are going around his authority is an easy way to land on his shit list. Create the trust and mind your business. Why broadcast what you are doing? It's none of their business.
 
#20
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a simple plain English explanation of what a trust is and how it works?

</div></div>

No. That's why it's the subject of an entire class in law school.

I would not create a trust that is going to hold NFA items without the assistance of a lawyer. The ATF will issue a tax stamp without verifying the legitimacy of the trust. If it's later discovered that something was awry with the paperwork, one could go to prison for a long time. Even if victorious, one would spend a lot of money defending himself.

I would seek the assistance of an attorney if I wanted to create a trust. I'd imagine it wouldn't be that complicated or expensive for him to do so. And if it was screwed up, at least you'd have some legal recourse.

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. It is merely a statement of what I'd do in a similar circumstance.
 
#21
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

I paid a Houston attorney $750 for my trust.

I'm considering Form 1'ing a couple of baffle stacks for a couple of air rifles just so I never have to worry about the possibility of a hassle. $400 worth of stamps is about 15-30 minutes worth of a federal defense attorney's time if for whatever ATF or a local LEA decides to jack with me.

LOTS of air rifles among enthusiasts have sound moderating appliances of one sort or another. If it isn't integral, there is significant potential legal risk (ATF holds rightly that they have no jurisdiction over air rifles; but if the appliance can conceivably be removed and installed on a firearm, there's trouble).
 
#22
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Downzero</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Derrick300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is there a simple plain English explanation of what a trust is and how it works?

</div></div>

No. That's why it's the subject of an entire class in law school.

I would not create a trust that is going to hold NFA items without the assistance of a lawyer. <span style="color: #FF0000">The ATF will issue a tax stamp without verifying the legitimacy of the trust. </span>If it's later discovered that something was awry with the paperwork, one could go to prison for a long time. Even if victorious, one would spend a lot of money defending himself.

I would seek the assistance of an attorney if I wanted to create a trust. I'd imagine it wouldn't be that complicated or expensive for him to do so. And if it was screwed up, at least you'd have some legal recourse.

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. It is merely a statement of what I'd do in a similar circumstance. </div></div>

Not correct. They actually do review state laws in which the trust resides. The examiners themselves do not but are constantly updated with new information. That is coming straight from Mr. Howard at the NFA branch.

I had my trust created on Quicken and just recently went to a lawyer in FL which was sent on to a KY based lawyer for her review. When a law firm drafts it, it is concrete.
 
#23
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PFCSkoug,

Make an appointment with your CLEO and explain a few things to him. First he is not responsible for anything when he signs, he is only saying he has no evidence that you are a criminal; he can do a background check to make sure.

Then tell him that if he does not sign, you will use a trust to own the silencer for you. He can know who owns a silencer in his jurisdiction, or he can remain ignorant. His choice. If he is smart, then he will sign.

I made a trust using Quicken Willmaker. Very easy. No sheriff's sig, photo or fingerprints needed. It has not made a difference on the amount of time for approval though.

Ranb
</div></div>

Pretty poor advise if you would like to keep the sheriff on your side. Calling him ignorant and then telling him you are going around his authority is an easy way to land on his shit list. Create the trust and mind your business. Why broadcast what you are doing? It's none of their business. </div></div>

I Agree,not really smart to have LEO against you.Better to just do it and not worry about it.

I would love to be in the audience while someone is explaining this to a Sheriff in that manner.
 
#24
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

I saw alot of replies about a trust being faster.

From what Ive heard through lots of searching through the internet, is that the BATFE is cracking down on trusts therfore making it longer, now remember this is the internet talking so take it FWIW.

 
#25
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

1) Be careful about a lot of the replies you are getting here. Like you, I am based in colorado. Recognize that these folks are coming from other places and some of them may be able to ask a city chief, etc but that does not apply in Colorado. In CO, by state statute the Sheriff of your county is the Chief LEO for that county. He (and his agency) is the one that should complete this process for you in this state.

You may find this useful as it is specific to CO:
http://www.douglasturner.com/2010/03/15/faqs-about-colorado-nfa-trusts/

2) Do you have reason to suspect the Sheriff will not sign? If you are in CSPrings, then yeah you are screwed. Other than that, it varies widely county to county.

3) Its hard to find a local attorney who will tackle a trust for you. The ATF has given grief (and recieved some) to/from some of the "known" gun friendly attorneys who do this kind of stuff so do not be surprised if you have to check with a few before you find one who will do it for you.

4) Quicken is a way to go but remember that at the end of the day if you go a trust, you need to make sure someone who is more legally versed than you (preferably a licensed attorney) ensures the validity of the trust.

Contrary to what some of the posters above have asserted, the examiners will not validate your trust in the respect of ensuring it "holds water" and will "hold up under challenge". More of what they are looking for is "is this really a trust" and "is someone trying to dodge the law here who shouldnt really have this". There is a BIG difference between the two types of review.

And -- word at two local gun clubs i frequent is that the ATF is doing a lot more sabre rattling about trusts so you need to just make sure you are protecting yourself by doing it right and getting the right people involved.

5) LLC IS an option but if you dont understand what an LLC is or its tax implications, etc, then do not confuse yourself by going down that road.
 
#27
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

I used a Revocable Living Trust made with Quicken Willmaker. Submitted 06/03/10 , approved 07/31/10, paperwork in hand 08/06/10

Easy as pie. LEO sign off here is easy. Just didn't want anyone to know what I have.

In some areas, a County Judge can sign as well.
 
#29
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

My town doesn't have a Chief of Police. The Mayor is the CEO and <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">will not </span></span> sign anything for anyone! We have a Resident State Trooper and several part time officers who do not have the authority to sign anything. I know of several people who asked for the Mayors signature on an NFA item, and he flat out refused in every case. If you have a similar situation, I'd be willing to bet that any ammount of explaining and reasoning will not get you far, and no agency in existence (BATFE, State Police, DPS etc...) will tell them otherwise.
Spend the money and form a Trust. There are other advantages besides getting around the signature.
 
#31
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 300WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">can't you have a judge sign it? </div></div>

Coroner can sign it as well, so can a judge and chief district attorney.
 
#32
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PFCSkoug,

Make an appointment with your CLEO and explain a few things to him. First he is not responsible for anything when he signs, he is only saying he has no evidence that you are a criminal; he can do a background check to make sure.

Then tell him that if he does not sign, you will use a trust to own the silencer for you. He can know who owns a silencer in his jurisdiction, or he can remain ignorant. His choice. If he is smart, then he will sign.

I made a trust using Quicken Willmaker. Very easy. No sheriff's sig, photo or fingerprints needed. It has not made a difference on the amount of time for approval though.

Ranb
</div></div>

Pretty poor advise if you would like to keep the sheriff on your side. Calling him ignorant and then telling him you are going around his authority is an easy way to land on his shit list. Create the trust and mind your business. Why broadcast what you are doing? It's none of their business. </div></div>

I Agree,not really smart to have LEO against you.Better to just do it and not worry about it.

I would love to be in the audience while someone is explaining this to a Sheriff in that manner. </div></div>

When I said a person could tell the sheriff that a trust could be used, it was advice for someone who is not able to get a signature. This means the sheriff is already against them, and for no good reason too.

I do not give advice that I am not willing to act on myself. I actually did tell (in a letter) my local sheriff that I could use a trust and not obtain his signature, but I was polite about it. He actually signed the forms and sent me a thank you note along with them.

So there, you were there when I told my sheriff that he could know who owns silencers in this county or not. It was very boring wasn't it? I do not know if he would have signed them otherwise, but it did not hurt me one bit.

Ranb
 
#33
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

I don't care how you told him. But they way you explained it made it sound like you were trying to rub it in his face and as an advice based forum, that would be poor advise. I informed the OP that it was a poor choice in which to inform him of his unwillingness to sign the forms.

Some departments have a long standing order to NOT sign the forms. Thats why I went with a trust, created by a law firm. I had a judge that would sign them but I hated to always bother him and it was a pain and waste of money to get pictures made and fingerprints done.

My post was to show that no matter what you do, why broadcast it? Do what you want and don't throw it in their face that their are misinformed. If you have such a problem with the LEO not knowing the laws, set up a meeting with him and explain why it is legal to own them and provide documentation. But above all be polite. Men of high authority do not appreciate being told what is and what is not legal. You will land on their bad side.
 
#34
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

A wise man once told me to make an appointment with the Sheriff and approach him as you would a job interview.
I did so with highlighted copies of NC Firearms statutes, my credentials, photos of what I was getting, and was very honest with why I wanted them.

We sat down and spoke for almost an hour as he proceeded to tell me what I needed to look out for in my neighborhood.
Made a new friend out of the deal.
 
#37
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

in Texas if the local law enforcement officer in charge of such things did not sign you went in front of judge and he asked only
1 question--"have you ever been convicted of a felony"--and then
paper work was approved --many people just gave up when sheriff
or whoeverwas in charge wouldnt sign----last time for this was over 10 yrs ago for me so ck with a knowledgeable atty
 
#38
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">PFCSkoug,

Make an appointment with your CLEO and explain a few things to him. First he is not responsible for anything when he signs, he is only saying he has no evidence that you are a criminal; he can do a background check to make sure.

Then tell him that if he does not sign, you will use a trust to own the silencer for you. He can know who owns a silencer in his jurisdiction, or he can remain ignorant. His choice. If he is smart, then he will sign.

I made a trust using Quicken Willmaker. Very easy. No sheriff's sig, photo or fingerprints needed. It has not made a difference on the amount of time for approval though.

Ranb
</div></div>

Pretty poor advise if you would like to keep the sheriff on your side. Calling him ignorant and then telling him you are going around his authority is an easy way to land on his shit list. Create the trust and mind your business. Why broadcast what you are doing? It's none of their business. </div></div>

I Agree,not really smart to have LEO against you.Better to just do it and not worry about it.

I would love to be in the audience while someone is explaining this to a Sheriff in that manner. </div></div>

When I said a person could tell the sheriff that a trust could be used, it was advice for someone who is not able to get a signature. This means the sheriff is already against them, and for no good reason too.

I do not give advice that I am not willing to act on myself. I actually did tell (in a letter) my local sheriff that I could use a trust and not obtain his signature, but I was polite about it. He actually signed the forms and sent me a thank you note along with them.

So there, you were there when I told my sheriff that he could know who owns silencers in this county or not. It was very boring wasn't it? I do not know if he would have signed them otherwise, but it did not hurt me one bit.

Ranb </div></div>

You are doing a bit of "Word Smithing" I see.Your post read as though he was supposed to march right in to the Sheriffs office and tell him "How the Cow Eats the Cabbage".And you know damn well it did.Now you are playing the innocent card since I called you out on it.Or maybe it is the Stupid Card?

Did your letter tell him he could remain "Ignorant" if he so chose? And which County was this in? Yes,I'm throwing the Bullshit flag on you.

BTW,even with a Trust,a suppressor is called in to the Sheriffs office the same as a handgun before you can pick it up from the dealer.So he knows who owns one in his County regardless of whether he signed or not.
 
#39
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ranb said:
SANDRAT said:
KYshooter338$ said:
Ranb said:
PFCSkoug,

BTW,even with a Trust,a suppressor is called in to the Sheriffs office the same as a handgun before you can pick it up from the dealer.So he knows who owns one in his County regardless of whether he signed or not. </div></div>

Is this true?
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#40
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lovetsx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ranb said:
SANDRAT said:
KYshooter338$ said:
Ranb said:
PFCSkoug,

BTW,even with a Trust,a suppressor is called in to the Sheriffs office the same as a handgun before you can pick it up from the dealer.So he knows who owns one in his County regardless of whether he signed or not. </div></div>

Is this true? </div></div>

Yes,I was so happy the Form 4 came back in 9 weeks I was ready to walk right out the door but they stopped me as I had to fill out the forms and have the call it in.

The "They" was One Shot Firearms in Wenatchee,WA. if anyone wonders.Great guys to do business with.
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#41
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lovetsx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ranb said:
SANDRAT said:
KYshooter338$ said:
Ranb said:
PFCSkoug,

BTW,even with a Trust,a suppressor is called in to the Sheriffs office the same as a handgun before you can pick it up from the dealer.So he knows who owns one in his County regardless of whether he signed or not. </div></div>

Is this true?</div></div>

not in Oklahoma, and definately not if you buy it in another county
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#42
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

These threads are always great, some one always chimes in whith the " Batfe is cracking down on trust" stuff. Someone chimes in withthe "I wrote the CLEO and told him hwo I can/got around him", etc....

That said it's interesting to read he finds out anyway when they call it in, this is a WA thing I assume?

I'm a huge fan of the trust route.

Hit print on the PC, cut a 200 buck check, sign 2 form 4s. It's so easy, then when you pick it up,you just fill out the 4473, they don't even call it in. Easy.
 
#43
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

I paid an attorney to form an LLC for me so that I could get a type 7 FFL.... What tax implications are there with an LLC as far as owning NFA Items? I was going to form a living trust for the NFA items but if an LLC works why would I?
 
#44
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KYshooter338$</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Not correct. They actually do review state laws in which the trust resides. The examiners themselves do not but are constantly updated with new information. That is coming straight from Mr. Howard at the NFA branch.

I had my trust created on Quicken and just recently went to a lawyer in FL which was sent on to a KY based lawyer for her review. When a law firm drafts it, it is concrete. </div></div>

They make no warranty that your trust is "legal." They might "check" but that is meaningless if you're in violation of the law.

If your lawyer says Quicken makes a legit trust, I wouldn't have any reason to doubt him or her. As long as a lawyer in your state has looked over it, I'd imagine you're GTG.
 
#45
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do a Trust,no Chief LEO in this state will sign off,won't take the responsibility. </div></div>

This is not true at all. 100 miles north of you is one that I know of. I am sure there are others.

That said, I agree that a trust is the way to go for a variety of reasons.
 
#46
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lovetsx</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SANDRAT</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Ranb said:
SANDRAT said:
KYshooter338$ said:
Ranb said:
PFCSkoug,

BTW,even with a Trust,a suppressor is called in to the Sheriffs office the same as a handgun before you can pick it up from the dealer.So he knows who owns one in his County regardless of whether he signed or not. </div></div>

Is this true? </div></div>

Yes,I was so happy the Form 4 came back in 9 weeks I was ready to walk right out the door but they stopped me as I had to fill out the forms and have the call it in.

The "They" was One Shot Firearms in Wenatchee,WA. if anyone wonders.Great guys to do business with.
</div></div>

Great now you own a can in a state where you cant use it , sounds like fun .


As for the sign off , its not getting permission from On High LEO , its simply acknowledgment you are getting some C-3 item . If the Sheriff wont sign , find any other person who can issue an arrest warrant to sign off .
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#47
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

But thanks to those new inventions called airplanes and automobiles, I can bring my cans across the state line to use them. The law sucks and I am trying to change it (anyone here want to help me), but at least I can make them.

Ranb
 
#48
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ranb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But thanks to those new inventions called airplanes and automobiles, I can bring my cans across the state line to use them. The law sucks and I am trying to change it (anyone here want to help me), but at least I can make them.

Ranb </div></div>

I Agree,we had a member here a while back in WA that was talking about how we go about getting a State Legislator to sponsor it.I offered to go with him in person and never heard back.Count me in on this.
 
#50
Re: Getting around a County Sheriff

Go to my website under downloads. Be sure to send the whole thing in. Before they did not need the Schedule A sent in. Now most examiners are asking for it.

Trusts are being looked over by the legal team @ NFA.
 
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