getting more out of an AR10?

[sled_mack]

I've got an AR10 that started out as a basic AR10-A4. It has a medium countour, stainless steel 20 inch barrel. I added a free float hand guard, a Geissele trigger, a heavy buffer, and Magpul PRS stock.

With hand loads, it is a 1 MOA gun. And that is single loading. The groups open up shot from a full mag. My hand loads are 178 Amax going about 2550 fps, lake city brass, Varget, FGMM primers.

I'd like to get more accuracy out of this gun, short of sending it to GAP for a full rebuild. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

Short of switching to a premium cut rifled barrel, you're pretty much there. You wouldn't need a full rebuild, just a properly headspaced Bartlein, Rock, Kreiger, etc barrel. However for a gas gun 1 moa isn't bad, depending on your own skills and the situation.

Look into why your groups open up when mag fed. Fire a shot and let it chamber the next round. Eject that round by hand and inspect it for damage. Make sure your bolt is going into full lock each time whether by hand or semi auto. If everything looks good, it may be you and your fundamentals. Large frame ARs are a known bitch to master, but can be done with work. I'd say continue to work on the fundamentals with what you have before sending it off, unless you just have money to spend on a new barrel. Trigger control, follow through and proper position are key.

 

[jasonZ]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I agree with the post above. I'd want to verify that everything is good, as it really should not open up when you're running a mag of the same ammo in it. Is it simply that you're not taking the time to settle back down and crack a good shot when you're running the mag. I bet it's something in you're brain that's saying go faster! Duplicate everything the same every time and take your time to see if that helps as well. I have that problem when running a gas gun sometimes and most of the time it's the shooter. Not saying that it is you, but I'd be thinking that it is.

 

[jakhamr81]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I experienced a similar problem out of my AR10. Groups were all over the place when shot from a mag, but when I slowed down and single loaded them my groups were much tighter.

Try shooting one round from a magazine, keep the gun loaded and completely break your position. Get your proper eye relief/ cheek weld and shoot again. I found that when I shot groups like this the result was about the same as if I was single loading them. My theory is that under the recoil of the .308 my position was getting jacked up and I was not consistently putting my face back in the same exact spot.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

How many different loads/projectiles have you tried at mag length?

 

[adam1122]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

Pretty typical for a .308...thats why the Army got rid of (at least one of the reasons) of the M14. Because as soon as you shoot a burst your barrel is already off target. Slow down...get a proper cheekweld...focus on your front sight and make sure you are properly squeezing the trigger.

I own an Armalite Ar-10A2 carbine and it shoots about 1MOA. If I start doing 20 round mag dumps the accuracy decreases exponentially. About a round a second is what you might want to try for. If you don't have a clear sight picture you have just wasted a round.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I've only tested it with the Amax and 175 SMK. The Amax was a little bit better, and since that is what goes in my bolt gun I stayed with it.

The mag fired rounds are not rapid fire. I'm not to the extent of breaking my position and getting back behind the rifle, but I am taking a few breaths to check NPA before taking the next shot.

I like the idea of un-chambering a few rounds to check for markings. Probably should do a few that are single loaded and a few that are from a full mag after a round is fired to compare differences.

I'm at the point where I'm trying to determine if the limit is me or the rifle. I certainly don't want to do any more to it if I am the limiting factor. For example, the new trigger made a huge difference. That was money very well spent. If I can determine that the rifle is limiting me, then a new barrel would be money well spent. But I may as well continue shooting this barrel out if I'm not going to shoot any better with a new one.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Kentucky Jelly]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I would test out some other components. Mine loves 165gr Game Kings. Have not gotten another combo with the 175 match kings to shoot as well.

 

[BCP]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

A buddy of mine had a 20" stainless version and it was pretty consistent at 1" with match loads. While it could be that bullets are getting messed up when mag fed causing poor accuracy I am betting you are pulling your shots or flinching when firing from a mag.

Maybe it's time for something like a noveske 18" barrel (bend over for 550 bills but they do shoot very well).

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?


Try this:
Have a good shooter buddy fire your rifle.

Fire test with Federal Gold Medal Match ammo.

Load ammo proven for auto loaders rather than bolt guns.

175 grain Sierra Match King bullet with your current load. If the Amax's are getting dinged on the ramp these might not.

168 '' '' '' '' '' '' a proven load. If the 175's don't shoot well, these might due to twist rate.

155 '' . If the 175's don't shoot well, these might due to twist rate.

Lubricate the bcg properly (grease).

Install a carbon silicon buffer spring.

 

[msalm]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

You have a good start, now you just need a better barrel. Call up Brux and buy one of their AR10 barrels, better yet, send them a BAT barrel extension and your bolt and have them headspace it to your bolt and re-assemble. You'll have a good shooter then.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

Hands down the best way to get more from a.308 auto is to run more ammo through it. Personally I think the "magazine" thing is in your head. Chambers/barrels are inherently stupid...they do not know or care where the round came from.

 

[Jumper]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I put an adjustable gas block on my AR10-T and turned down the gas. This helped reduce the movement induced by the cycling of the BCG and buffer and, made it easier to recover from shot to shot. It didnt help accuracy much. Its still about a 1MOA rifle.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Load ammo proven for auto loaders rather than bolt guns.

</div></div>

I thought when we were talking hand loads, tuning loads was similar to bolt guns? Obviously, I'm new to the gas gun thing, so I'd appreciate some insight.

Last I tried FGMM, it did terrible. That being said, I haven't tried it since I put the heavy buffer in. It was trying to rip the rim off the case with the standard setup. I'll try them again. What I've got is 168 gr.


As far as the mag issue, what I get is shots alternating left and right. When I single load my groups have a noticable vertical stringing to them more so than horizontal (group looks like an oval, not a circle). When I fire from the mag I end up with something more like two ovals on the target, side by side. But, I will try what was suggested eariler - load from the mag and completely break my position between each shot. I'll be curious to see what that does.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I thought when we were talking hand loads, tuning loads was similar to bolt guns? Obviously, I'm new to the gas gun thing, so I'd appreciate some insight.

Last I tried FGMM, it did terrible. That being said, I haven't tried it since I put the heavy buffer in. It was trying to rip the rim off the case with the standard setup. I'll try them again. What I've got is 168 gr.


As far as the mag issue, what I get is shots alternating left and right. When I single load my groups have a noticable vertical stringing to them more so than horizontal (group looks like an oval, not a circle). When I fire from the mag I end up with something more like two ovals on the target, side by side. But, I will try what was suggested eariler - load from the mag and completely break my position between each shot. I'll be curious to see what that does. </div></div>

It appears that your problem is that you're putting the cart before the horse. You said you're new to gas guns but you're trying to develop a load for a weapon that you're not proficient with yet. I'd take some 168's and shoot the crap out of them until you can reduce your group size by approximately 1/3. I'd guess that it takes running 800-1000 rounds through an auto before you get used to how it responds, and even then I'd wager that you haven't mastered it yet.

You're wasting time on load development that would be better spent on shooter development. TIFWIW

 

[BCP]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I used to get the "two groups" and vertical stringing a lot too. It is due to trigger control/follow through and inconsistent cheekweld.

 

[Hawk45]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

I'll 5th or 6th or whatever we are on here. You have to put the trigger time on the 308AR platforms. Trying to work up loads with inconsistant form will only dissappoint you and leave you rifle in the safe or in the formum "For Sale" section. Don't do that to yourself or your rifle. Put the bolts back in the safe for bit and really work on your fundamentals. Groups will shrink with practice. Make notes and review them.. often. I'm only saying this b/c I'm going through the same process. It can be very frustrating when things with a bolt gun seem much easier.

 

[rpk762]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

My AR-10T has a long throat and if I loaded them long it was a hammer with most loads but mag length it was lackluster at best. I kept trying different bullets, powders and primers until I got it right. It was very painful to get a mag length round that shot well. You might have to go back to the drawing board to get it to shoot well.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

BattleAxe - when you say take out some 168s and shoot, why 168 over anything else? Or do you mean something line FGMM 168? And why would that be better than my hand loads that were shooting better than FGMM (or any other 168) last I checked?

No argument that I need more time on it. The point of the question was that (for example) putting the new trigger in cut my groups in half. I wanted to be sure there is nothing else I'm leaving on the table that might give big gains for small price. It doesn't sound like that is the case. It sounds like once I have a lot more rounds through the gun I'll have to decide if it's time for a match barrel on it.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BattleAxe - when you say take out some 168s and shoot, why 168 over anything else? Or do you mean something line FGMM 168? And why would that be better than my hand loads that were shooting better than FGMM (or any other 168) last I checked?

No argument that I need more time on it. The point of the question was that (for example) putting the new trigger in cut my groups in half. I wanted to be sure there is nothing else I'm leaving on the table that might give big gains for small price. It doesn't sound like that is the case. It sounds like once I have a lot more rounds through the gun I'll have to decide if it's time for a match barrel on it. </div></div>

Because all things considered, 168's simply perform well in autos and in fact its been said that if your auto can't shoot 168's well...its broken. Whether you choose FGMM, SWA, or other factory ammo almost doesn't matter as long as its quality stuff. If you know with certainty that your hand loads are top shelf I'd say use them.

I currently have two .308 autos and recently got rid of one so I have a LOT of trigger time on them easily to the tune of 400+ rounds per month, pretty much all year long. I've found that in each of my autos that 168's are practically untouchable from a consistency/accuracy standpoint inside 600 yards providing you're not dealing with any crazy winds. Past 600...175's work best.

The key here is to use the same ammo until you feel that you've mastered your trigger/firing sequence. By this time you'll likely have reduced your grouping about as much as you're going to and the limits of your ammunition and barrel will become your limiting factor. Changing up ammo during platform familiarization could have you chasing your tail. It's not so much about eliminating variables (perfect world) as much as it is about having consistent and predictable variables.

 

[T2CH]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

Great advice BA, I could not agree more with the 168's. They shoot great in my GAP 10. The 175's fro SWA were less than stellar at 100 yds.
I was at the range today and upon starting my groups sucked. I knew the ammo would shoot better groups but I was off. When I finally got my shit together and concentrated on the basics everything fell in line. Groups tightened up although I still had a flyer in the best group that was purely my fault.

Try the FGMM 168's for a while and you should be able to get them below 1 moa consistantly doing your part. Research on here about shooting positions, trigger control, breathing and follow through. Practice them, get comfortable behind the rifle. Then when you have constant results, try different ammo.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

OK, I get it now.

I had written off the 168 FGMM when I first tried it because it did not shoot well and nearly ripped the rims off the case head. However, I since installed the heavy buffer which should have helped quite a bit with that issue.

Unfortunately, I'm not going to get 400 rounds a month through mine in the summer, and even less in the winter. This could be a slow process on my end.

Just out of curiosity - does the skill driving a gas gun transfer to a bolt gun? I am I going to be screwing myself up trying to get proficient with both?

Thanks again for all the help!

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sled</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just out of curiosity - does the skill driving a gas gun transfer to a bolt gun? I am I going to be screwing myself up trying to get proficient with both? </div></div>
I practice exclusively with an auto and when I pick up a bolt gun the results are amazing. Auto triggers are so much harder that a bolt gun will become childs play.

 

[alnkal00]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

Heres what Im running in my 18.5" MA-Ten w/SW Ammo 175 (standards)

CWS w/spring,enidine buffer and JP adj block & B. Cooley brake combo works like a dream.
I cant believe how easy she is to drive and how gentle she is on brass.
I actually have to spin the spent casing between two fingers to feel any kind of ejection scuff because there arent any visable marks.

I had the buffer/brake and adj block but it was after I added
the Tubbs parts that the spent casings came out in pristine condition and a big reduction in impulse.

Im really happy with the way she is set up right now.

Always from prone with tab rear bag & Atlas bipod.
When I load my bipod you can see the legs flex backwards.
Sometimes I think Im going to snap the legs back thats how much
pressure I actually put on the bipod

In order for me to do that I picked up one of those Voodoo Tactical shooters mat
that has a Data Book pouch with a velcro closer and pen holders underneath towards the front of the mat.
I picked up a piece of 1/16" thick 1/2" x 36" steel tubing and cut it down to 12"
and ran it through the pen holder.
Now I can load the bipod like it should be loaded.

My rifle does not move at all.

As soon as my Tab mat comes in Ill be sewing in a loop to hold
tubing in that one as well

If youve seen the vid of LL shooting out to 1k with a 18" barrel you see
that he has that bipod driven into a little ledge and the result is zero recoil impulse.
Thats where I got the idea from.

Ill post a pic later when I get home if you want to see how the bipod drives into the tubing.

I dont see how anyone can properly drive an AR on a bench.
As hard as I drive it,it would just slide. Ive tried it on concrete same effect,just slides.
Put it behind the pocket of the mat steady as a rock and it shoots lights out
now with the addition of the Tubbs parts...forget about it.

Hope this helps


AL

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I practice exclusively with an auto and when I pick up a bolt gun the results are amazing. Auto triggers are so much harder that a bolt gun will become childs play. </div></div>

That's encouraging. I was beginning to wonder if the two skill sets were separate from each other. Glad to hear they are not.

 

[sled_mack]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

AL,

I can visualize how you are loading the bipod. For a while I practiced using a similar setup. I was then advised not to practice that way, as it is unlikely I'd be able to duplicate that in a field setting. Made sense to me, so I went back to loading the bipod with what ever natural friction allowed.

I will try loading the bipod this way the next time out just to see the difference.

I shoot mostly prone. If I use a bench, it is usually as a barricade, not sitting behind it like a traditional bench position.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: alnkal</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I load my bipod you can see the legs flex backwards.
Sometimes I think Im going to snap the legs back thats how much
pressure I actually put on the bipod
</div></div>

I used to ride my bipod just as hard but as someone pointed out you don't always have that option depending on conditions. What I found over time was that excessive loading is merely a bandaid for a poor trigger squeeze. It will work to a degree BUT you can get unwanted movement imposed by your body against the rifle. In the end you'll likely find that once you refine your trigger squeeze you won't have to ride it so hard.

You really only want to ride it hard enough to keep the reticle on target and depending on how much natural muzzle jump or bipod hop you get it may not be possible to eliminate it completely depending on the rifle. Watching someone shoot an Atlas can be deceiving in that even when loaded lightly the legs will flex backwards. One thing I've come to realize is that keeping the reticle on target after the shot does NOT guarantee a good shot...only a perfect trigger squeeze will.

 

[magyarbetyar]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Because all things considered, 168's simply perform well in autos and in fact its been said that if your auto can't shoot 168's well...its broken. </div></div>

I have to disagree with this. Mine absolutely hates anything in the 168gr. However FGMM 175ers will shoot dime size groups all day. It is a bit of a frankenstien with Armalite upper and Noveske lower, but that should not matter. The barrel is a 24" tube with 1/11 twist.

Go figure.

However I do agree with what people are saying you do have to re-learn to shoot an auto loader. It took me a while, but it was worth it.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: getting more out of an AR10?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: magyarbetyar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have to disagree with this. Mine absolutely hates anything in the 168gr. </div></div> There's nothing odd about your situation and you can hardly call yours a "typical" AR10. Most shooters will progress past a point where they may find something their rifle likes better. That doesn't mean though that their rifle will spray 168's like a battle worn AK. For someone new to AR10's 168's generally can't be beat.