Ghetto ELR match?

[Sandow the Heretic]

So there were a number of interesting conversations at Greystone but one of them might have spawned a new class. I got asked about a "factory class" and pointed out that there were still excellent and expensive guns that come from factories. But diving into that the concept emerged, how about a cheap ass gun class. Maybe $1000 total cost including optics as the only criteria. Enforceable by anyone being able to buy someone else's gun for $1000 after the match. Having done a fair amount of 24 hours of lemons, I will say hands down that running cheap crap to its limits is fun on a bun and I can't bring myself to give a quintillionth of a fuck about 22 ELR (not that those are really all that cheap...).

My question to you guys is if I put a match together, would you guys be into it?

-Alex

 

[Mike Casselton]

I'm thinking it would be fun, but no way in hell would I be willing to sell a great shooting rifle just because someone else wants it.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Who the hell would put the time, money and effort into traveling to such a match to do shitty because of likely piss poor equipment? Then somehow someone else is entitled to your gear if they want it? Uhhhh, no.

I think canning my farts which currently smell like a rotting dumpster from avacado toast and sending them off to be replicated and made into candles sounds like a better idea.

 

[VinceY]

I think it sounds like a fun idea. Not sure you really meant someone would be entitled to buy your gun for $1000. Enforcement could be simple. Look up all the components for a competitors rig and put them in a shopping cart. If the total is under $1000 before shipping, good to go.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Who the hell would put the time, money and effort into traveling to such a match to do shitty because of likely piss poor equipment? Then somehow someone else is entitled to your gear if they want it? Uhhhh, no.

I think canning my farts which currently smell like a rotting dumpster from avacado toast and sending them off to be replicated and made into candles sounds like a better idea.

Must be my lemons background but doing the least shitty you can on a shoe string budget is a ton of fun. Everyone else has the same constraints so shitty will be relative to other matches not other shooters at the same match.

Buy out is clearly unpopular and probably unenforceable anyway. Purchase price is too easily fucked with to rely on and a smith could put something together for a grand in parts that would out perform a gun off the shelf. $1000 limit could be enforced with a bullshit inspection to have a few people estimate the value of a gun. Point penalty if it gets valued over $1000. Top prize for the highest score per dollar valued. Maybe run it as a prize fight with a good percentage of the match fee going to the top places.

-Alex

 

[redneckbmxer24]

No, chasing your tail with inferior equipment is not fun. But you do you.

 

[W54/XM-388]

Because the stupid "factory class" thing was not enough of a Cluster F***, let's make an even bigger mess?

How about just simply say run whatever you bring and let your shooting speak for itself.

 

[MarshallDodge]

It sounds like fun but the selling the rifle part might be a roadblock. Maybe have some kind of points system, judging, etc.

Hopefully all those guys who brag about their $400 Ruger American Predators will show up

You can buy a lot of decent used scopes these days that would be competitive for around $500. If you get into the Chinese stuff, probably haf of that.

Throw in some rings and a few other accessories and I think $1K might be doable.

 

[Dogtown]

Custom rifles vs Factory rifles could be a thing, in my opinion. Most of the top ELR shooters I've competed against were shooting custom rifles, while others like myself were shooting factory rifles (AI, DTA, etc). Granted, many of them would be considered high end >$4000 rifles, but there's still a difference there and in the grand scheme of things that difference is probably minor.

 

[stefan73]

You could always do a Vintage class, K98's and stuff along those lines.

Definitely not the sell off bit.

 

[357Max]

Must be my lemons background but doing the least shitty you can on a shoe string budget is a ton of fun. Everyone else has the same constraints so shitty will be relative to other matches not other shooters at the same match.

Buy out is clearly unpopular and probably unenforceable anyway. Purchase price is too easily fucked with to rely on and a smith could put something together for a grand in parts that would out perform a gun off the shelf. $1000 limit could be enforced with a bullshit inspection to have a few people estimate the value of a gun. Point penalty if it gets valued over $1000. Top prize for the highest score per dollar valued. Maybe run it as a prize fight with a good percentage of the match fee going to the top places.

-Alex

I’ve also done Lemons & more recently Champ Car. It’s a ton of fun for the $ spent. Going back a ways I also did dirt enduro & limited late model. It’s a very common practice to have an engine by out option & depending on track/series it would apply to only winner or top 3 & if refused it’s a dq with a ban on future comps.
I get why they did it but damn it caused a lot of drama.

I’d love to shoot a match where you had a rack of identical shitty rifle scope combo’s + factory ammo. You get x amount of time to nut & bolt it, zero it, and dope it. 1 bag all the same. Something like that could also draw a ton of new shooters & might need to be teamed like pro- am. I think it’d be a ton of fun & personally I would get as much enjoyment from mentoring a newbie as I did from competing.

 

[ChidJ]

Maybe tough to make a whole dedicated match out of it but it could be a fun side-match thing. Have pre-built setups ready for participants to grab and go. Cash buy in with a short course of fire. Best showing wins the pot or something like that

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Call it the “Top Poor Challenge”. The prize for the top poor is you divide the cost of an adult meal at Golden Corral by the number of shooters and everyone pitches in that amount and the top poor of the match gets a gift card for dinner.

 

[stefan73]

Call it the “Top Poor Challenge”. The prize for the top poor is you divide the cost of an adult meal at Golden Corral by the number of shooters and everyone pitches in that amount and the top poor of the match gets a gift card for dinner.

Winner gets a case of Pabst Blue Ribbon

 

[wildcats]

Winner gets a date with Nancy P.

 

[stefan73]

Winner gets a date with Nancy P.

 

[357Max]

 

[TripleBull]

Sometimes I like how sick you motherfuckers are.

Other times, not so much.

------

Can we just throw extra-long-distance horse shoes and call it Ultra-Poor-ELR? I have some high BC shoes I am ready to comp with.

 

[lash]

I like the idea, even if it might need some tweaking. Like the Lemon series, which is a freaking blast. Shake it out a bit and see what makes sense.

 

[db2000]

Where should I bring my Vanguard and Arken?

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Maybe tough to make a whole dedicated match out of it but it could be a fun side-match thing. Have pre-built setups ready for participants to grab and go. Cash buy in with a short course of fire. Best showing wins the pot or something like that

Doing it as a side match on the registration day for a real match would probably work. A single 15 string to keep the logistics simple.

Dunno about buying a pile of mediocre guns to run it off of. Would be a massive up front cost that would take a pile of matches just to break even on. Besides, half the fun is going to be seeing what solutions people come up with and most people here have a cheap bolt action laying around that would probably fit the parameter.

Hell the iron sights on my enfield have something like 3 degrees of elevation adjustment

-Alex

 

[MarshallDodge]

View attachment 7911713

I'd "hit" that so hard it would turn her and her family into libertarians

 

[spamassassin]

I'd be down. I've got a few rifles that were cobbled together from parts that are easily competition capable if a bit unrefined. Many of us have bug hole shooting Savage 10FP's that cost $500-$600 and have SWFA SS optics on top of them that we loan out to our friends when they want to come shooting long range for the first time. If someone wanted to buy that for a grand fine. Alternatively, we could just as easily have a match that only allows bottom end Primary Arms scopes or NCStar/Barska scopes or scopes can only be attached with hose clamps or you can only use solid chunks of styrofoam for front support or any of a zillion other rules designed to make missing lots of targets the expectation.

I think there's a big opportunity for vendors and the next paragraph is really for them:

Could just as well really eliminate the gear racing issue altogether and have each stage pre-equipped with the rifle to be used there. Sponsors of pro-teams can have a little bit of fun and do a solid to the community by putting together beater rifles and letting each non-sponsored competitor to run 10 rounds out of it at whatever stage it's stationed at. It should be pretty easy to get 10-20 rigs put together to equip a whole match with. Shooters benefit by being able to experience and compare the butter slick bolt operation of a Defiance action vs a Big Horn compared to the gritty chunkiness of a Remington 770 and the wiggle dunk of a Savage 10. They can experience the difference in the break of Bix-n-Andy vs. Timney C.E. vs. Huber Concepts triggers. They'll be able to try out the wicked cool reticles and top end glass from Vortex, Leupold and Zero Compromise. There's no need for any vendor to paper the walls with freebies for pro-shooters just for those pros to sell on the freebies to consumers only for the Vendors to lose out on the retail sale they'd earned. Vendors can not only advertise directly to qualified leads (real consumers) instead of just viewers and those consumers will be able to directly compare products to see what they like best without having to have gone through the fun and palaver of purchasing and selling on 3 actions, 10 scopes, 5 bipods, 3 triggers and 6 stocks.

 

[stefan73]

I'd be down. I've got a few rifles that were cobbled together from parts that are easily competition capable if a bit unrefined. Many of us have bug hole shooting Savage 10FP's that cost $500-$600 and have SWFA SS optics on top of them that we loan out to our friends when they want to come shooting long range for the first time. If someone wanted to buy that for a grand fine. Alternatively, we could just as easily have a match that only allows bottom end Primary Arms scopes or NCStar/Barska scopes or scopes can only be attached with hose clamps or you can only use solid chunks of styrofoam for front support or any of a zillion other rules designed to make missing lots of targets the expectation.

I think there's a big opportunity for vendors and the next paragraph is really for them:

Could just as well really eliminate the gear racing issue altogether and have each stage pre-equipped with the rifle to be used there. Sponsors of pro-teams can have a little bit of fun and do a solid to the community by putting together beater rifles and letting each non-sponsored competitor to run 10 rounds out of it at whatever stage it's stationed at. It should be pretty easy to get 10-20 rigs put together to equip a whole match with. Shooters benefit by being able to experience and compare the butter slick bolt operation of a Defiance action vs a Big Horn compared to the gritty chunkiness of a Remington 770 and the wiggle dunk of a Savage 10. They can experience the difference in the break of Bix-n-Andy vs. Timney C.E. vs. Huber Concepts triggers. They'll be able to try out the wicked cool reticles and top end glass from Vortex, Leupold and Zero Compromise. There's no need for any vendor to paper the walls with freebies for pro-shooters just for those pros to sell on the freebies to consumers only for the Vendors to lose out on the retail sale they'd earned. Vendors can not only advertise directly to qualified leads (real consumers) instead of just viewers and those consumers will be able to directly compare products to see what they like best without having to have gone through the fun and palaver of purchasing and selling on 3 actions, 10 scopes, 5 bipods, 3 triggers and 6 stocks.

That makes me think, Hunter Class.

 

[Geno C.]

Elr is a gear race. Top fuel racing doesn’t have anything to do with stock class.

 

[Bandit320]

Elr is a gear race. Top fuel racing doesn’t have anything to do with stock class.

Racers don’t step of the street into top fuel. I would think entry level ELR matches, though looked down on by top level shooters, would be a good way to grow the sport and equipment offerings for all involved.

 

[Geno C.]

The stepping stone to erl is long range shooting. You can still have a rookie class without neutering someone’s equipment. Spearpoint has proven that this season.

 

[Bandit320]

Don’t believe he was talking about neutering anyones equipment, just a shoot with entry level equipment.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

Don’t believe he was talking about neutering anyones equipment, just a shoot with entry level equipment.

This is more about just having a fun event that anything else. I don't even think it would be all that rookie appropriate cause it would still get won by people with their reloading and shooting techniques down.

-Alex

 

[W54/XM-388]

I think this concept is fatally flawed from the get go by the OP calling it an ELR match.
Lots of folks who toss around the term ELR don't actually understand what the actual ELR is today (the folks pushing the 2500 to 4000 yard+ shots)

The chances of you being repeatably accurate with $1k total of purchased gear is exceptionally unlikely.

For that matter even being accurate and repeatable at a mile with $1k total of purchased gear (as in NOT having more misses than hits) is iffy.

 

[jasent]

Even my vanguard with McGowan barrel and arken scope was over 1k total
My super budget 37xc build was almost 2k total.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

I think this concept is fatally flawed from the get go by the OP calling it an ELR match.
Lots of folks who toss around the term ELR don't actually understand what the actual ELR is today (the folks pushing the 2500 to 4000 yard+ shots)

The chances of you being repeatably accurate with $1k total of purchased gear is exceptionally unlikely.

For that matter even being accurate and repeatable at a mile with $1k total of purchased gear (as in NOT having more misses than hits) is iffy.

Yup. I of all people have no clue about ELR matches...

You can push limits in a lot of ways. 22 "ELR" isn't particularly popular in the states but it is a growing sport in the EU. They are only going to 600-700 yards but that is a big ask for a 22 LR. Optimizing for cheap is pushing limits in another way. Maybe 1 mile is the upper limit with a cheap ass gun, maybe not. 338 or 300 RUM are pretty easy to toss together for under a grand and have similar performance to 338 LM and 300 Norma which are reasonably capable at a mile. There are some low hanging fruit choices that would probably do ok, but I'm sure there are some diamonds in the rough that would end up as stand out choices after a few matches.

I think I'll run one as a sight in day match next year for Unholy Alliance. A single 15 shot string with targets at around 1000, 1400 and 1800. With a sloped rail that should be manageable on cheap glass.

-Alex

 

[spamassassin]

About any really properly ELR capable chambering is going to be either ridiculously expensive to load for due to high powder consumption and high projectile cost or just on barrel life alone or more likely on both fronts. I can build a .338LM for pretty cheap but shooting it is another matter entirely. My fast 6mm's will pretty easily reach out to 1700-1800m still being just barely supersonic but even then, barrel life on those is not spectacularly better than a .338LM or .375CT and they'll get just murdered by any kind of wind variability. I get a kick out of shooting 1400+ with the 6XC and doing pretty well but when we pass 1 mile the universe changes shape and starts looking a lot like a middle finger through a rifle scope. I vote we just ignore the ELR context and think about the LR context. If you want to play with the big kids doing real ELR then you need big kid money but you can play with the sandlot crowd for a TON less money and even be pretty competitive with run of the mill gear and people usually will get into ELR as a sort of graduation from standard LR when that gets less than challenging. I don't have the desire to part with the number of dollars that going beyond a mile would take so I'm happy to be a little less impressed with myself and a lot more financially afloat by accepting the distance limitation that comes with it.

 

[n2ishun]

If you're going to do a "ghetto" match you have to do it correctly.
Downtown Compton Ca.

 

[Sandow the Heretic]

If you're going to do a "ghetto" match you have to do it correctly.
Downtown Compton Ca.

I guess it is unlikely anyone would really notice a few more rifle shots wizzing by...

-Alex

 

[jpop8807]

No, chasing your tail with inferior equipment is not fun. But you do you.

I'll have to agree and disagree on that one. I volunteer at a range out here now and they just threw something together 2k max spent on the weapon and accessories. They basically just google the new price of both, (anything over gets time added to total time) they are doing a little competition coming up. Some navy seal guy that owns the range I haven't met yet thought of the idea something about new long range shooters being nervous to compete because they all think they need a custom gun or some 6k plus ai or mrad or they will lose. He did it more so to bring poorer/younger shooters into it. From what I heard this was the first competition that they had completely filled up at his little range (which you know for him brings in more money).

 

[jpop8807]

You could always do a Vintage class, K98's and stuff along those lines.

Definitely not the sell off bit.

That would be badass. After watching vintage shooters club, and 9 holes. Maybe a set up like that whoevers running the comp could do a whatever decade vintage for that month. K98/mosin time frame maybe another vietnam era time frame and so forth. Clones accepted to bring in more people. Have 2 separate ones maybe to draw in more people semi, and bolt or vs each other.

 

[Jackomason]

Sounds like a Top Gear episode (If you get a chance, watch the Bolivia special). Cool idea but I'm not quite at the point of having money to throw away.

I think cheating should be allowed as long as you don't get caught. Screwing with someone else's rifle should be off limits though. So maybe a penalty for improvements and DQ if you mess with someone's gear.

The price should include PX sales as long as the shooter can verify.

 

[cameljockey230]

Sounds like a good way to draw in new shooters to me.
They compete against similar equipment and if they like it they will stick around and upgrade.
We have guys with the greatest gear money can buy and guys with basically hunting gear with a good scope mount and it generally comes down to accuracy.
Never seen a factory barrel win unless that's all that was shooting that day.

 

[longrangelefty 94]

Yup. I of all people have no clue about ELR matches...

You can push limits in a lot of ways. 22 "ELR" isn't particularly popular in the states but it is a growing sport in the EU. They are only going to 600-700 yards but that is a big ask for a 22 LR. Optimizing for cheap is pushing limits in another way. Maybe 1 mile is the upper limit with a cheap ass gun, maybe not. 338 or 300 RUM are pretty easy to toss together for under a grand and have similar performance to 338 LM and 300 Norma which are reasonably capable at a mile. There are some low hanging fruit choices that would probably do ok, but I'm sure there are some diamonds in the rough that would end up as stand out choices after a few matches.

I think I'll run one as a sight in day match next year for Unholy Alliance. A single 15 shot string with targets at around 1000, 1400 and 1800. With a sloped rail that should be manageable on cheap glass.

-Alex

3 targets 3 shots each, light target 1,2,3 on the mountain would be fun with the transitions , make it a 20$ entry and first gets the money. I would put something together for shits and giggles.
-Hunter