Ghost guns

[pmclaine]

First I saw a post on the CMP forums ask each other section from someone apparently "shocked" that someone could build their own gun "with no serial number, unregistered, and without the govt knowing about it" which was than likely to be used by criminals.

While I was responding to that BS two workers seperatly came to me and said "Have you heard about Ghost guns?"

Apparently some news org must have dome something nationally regarding 80 percent lowers or frames.

They must have spread a lot of fear and disinformation so stand by for the next attack.

My understanding is that all 80 percent guns built must have a unique serial number. I figured the ATF has to be made aware of the serial number. I thought the builder must maintain possession of the gun as selling it would seem to be a route to possible income and in that case you had better be a licensed manufacturer.

Than the idea that 30 minutes in the shop with a makita cordless results in a functional gun is total fallacy. Word is the "reporter" built a gun on his own. I doubt the guy even knows how to use calipers so that is a stretch and even if he could build his own there are few criminals that can.

Whats the legit info regards 80 percent guns and the ATF so I can be armed with facts if this becomes a topic?

 

[FatBoy]

I wish I had better info for you, but this varies state by state. We can make our own firearm in TN. Name and address as to be on the firearm and it can't be sold. I have never heard of the need for a serial number or to report to ATF. I'm sure the Fed's have at least 20 laws or regulations that counter that state law, only to be used by a DA if they feel the need to send you to prison.

 

[Zugzug]

I saw a piece from Buzzfeed, so you know that is has a hard left slant, where a reporter built and 80% lower. He made three tries and only succeeded once when he took it to a gunsmith to fix his screw ups. The media periodically tosses these stories up to gain traction for the anti gunners.

 

[bigdaddydmd]

I saw the "hit piece" on CBS Evening news last night. They pushed the ghost gun angle and that "criminals who can buy them use ghost guns, or people who don't want the government to know they own guns". It was a dumb ass news piece that parroted the usual gun paranoia and calls for stricter gun control.

 

[...]

yup....saw the news story......some dong-hopper rep from MA wants to make 80% illegal unless the parts are serialized and you have to get a background check...which would essentially ban any firearm components from being sold in MA.

im not quite sure how they expect to have serial numbers and a BG check for things that arent firearms.......but then again, this is MA

ive literally built firearms with pipe from HomeDepot.......so unless they are going to require a BG check pipe.....the laws are useless.

 

[pmclaine]

This is pretty clear but it leaves out whether or not the firearm must be maintained by the builder, never sold...

also seems to maintain some Obama era language

https://www.atf.gov/qa-category/receiver-blanks

 

[...]

as far as making your own firearm is concerned....so long as you are not a prohibited person, you can make anything you want (NFA rules apply)

contrary to popular belief, YES, you can in fact sell it......but you cannot manufacture it with the INTENT to sell it........so if i want to make myself a gun, then sometime later i lose interest or just dont want it, i can sell it.........but i cant make 10 of them and sell them at the local gun show.

it doesnt even need a serial number.....it only required a serial number when you go to transfer it. (state laws vary)

in MA, it does require a serial number and must be registered with an FA10 within 7 days.

 

[pmclaine]

Does an 80 percent builder have to file one of these...

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...-and-register-firearm-atf-form-53201/download

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...ufactured-or-imported-atf-form-53202/download

 

[...]

Does an 80 percent builder have to file one of these...

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...-and-register-firearm-atf-form-53201/download

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/f...ufactured-or-imported-atf-form-53202/download

i beleive that is only required on NFA firearms, SBRs, SBS, ect.

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

I believe this is the missing context you seek bud.. gives me a laugh everytime LOL fckn hilarious

 

[Supersubes]

Cali laws are a bit hard to follow as they seem to change regularly. Here we can build them, without a number. Come this July, prior builds must be numbered(could actually be for lowers which have been carved but not assembled, not sure). Builds after that need to be applied for through the cali DOJ, and they’ll supply the number.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

I had a friend ask me about it yesterday... I figured some group or organization has made up a term and then made it all scary....

Fortunately, his reaction was "I'd love to build a Luger." He was fascinated by the idea of fitting and finishing parts into a finished gun!

So the stupid article may, in fact, have backfired in his case... because now he is all fired up to try the craftsmanship side of gunsmithing.

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

I had a friend ask me about it yesterday... I figured some group or organization has made up a term and then made it all scary....

Fortunately, his reaction was "I'd love to build a Luger." He was fascinated by the idea of fitting and finishing parts into a finished gun!

So the stupid article may, in fact, have backfired in his case... because now he is all fired up to try the craftsmanship side of gunsmithing.

Cheers,

Sirhr

Id suggest he pick an easier first project than the machinists dream that the Luger is.

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

So what I'm hearing is that it depends on state law? I wonder what the law looks like for traveling with one across state lines?

 

[...]

So what I'm hearing is that it depends on state law? I wonder what the law looks like for traveling with one across state lines?

federally speaking, it should be no different than any other firearm.......to my knowledge, i do not know of any state that prohibits "homemade" firearms specifically.

theres nothing special about homemade firearms....once its made, its literally the same as a gun you bought at the store.......generally the only thing you need to pay attention to is if your state has a requirement to register firearms......then all you need to do is stamp a number on it, and register it as normal.

the other caveat is some states have a "zip gun" law, which prohibits crudely made/ improvised firearms.......generally 80% do not fall into this category.

 

[pmclaine]

It still boils down to in order to use it unlawfully you have to break laws in order to break the law so adding additional layers of law will only stop the law abiding from pursuing their freedoms while the law breakers still break laws.

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

federally speaking, it should be no different than any other firearm.......to my knowledge, i do not know of any state that prohibits "homemade" firearms specifically.

Good to know, I've been fiddling with the idea of getting an 80% and jig kit. Not sure the benefit vs. just buying one, except staying off the radar? I heard with the right 80% lower and kit they are easy to make, however I'm sure its quite costly and if I have to end up registering it in some way, is it worth it???

 

[...]

Good to know, I've been fiddling with the idea of getting an 80% and jig kit. Not sure the benefit vs. just buying one, except staying off the radar? I heard with the right 80% lower and kit they are easy to make, however I'm sure its quite costly and if I have to end up registering it in some way, is it worth it???

theres really no benefit to buying an 80% over just buying a premade lower.

the whole "staying off the radar" thing is just a bunch of BS.......unless you are a prohibited person.....there is no "radar" so to speak.

people who buy 80% do so because they enjoy building stuff, and have pride in making something themselves......but the end results are almost always worse than a ready made lower.

now with the right jigging, AND the right tools they can be pretty easy to make.........for AR lowers, you generally need a mill to get it to look halfway decent...........ive seen the ones made with just a drill press, and they all look like dog shit.


the other benefit is if you live in a state like MA, we have an "approved handgun list".....which is a list of guns that are approved for a dealer to sell.......however, this does not mean you can only own guns on that list......

for example, i cannot go to a dealer and buy a new glock, because they arent approved for sale.......i can however legally own a glock(stupid law i know)....so i can legally make my own glock lower, and build a glock with an 80% kit.

regarding registering, you only need to register it if your state requires you to register firearms in the first place.........i dont know of any state that requires you to register firearms just because they are homemade

 

[pmclaine]

There was a Colt 6920 in the Hide classifieds for $695 last week.

I dont see making a "quality" gun cheaper than that.

The under the radar thing only matters if you see the possibility of confiscation and assume that will not cause an immediate backlash.

In my state you would have to "register" it to be in compliance. Some other places perhaps not.

The idea interests me but my standards would require some expensive tooling, I would obsess over it so much Id have hundreds of hours of my time in it which does have a value but when it comes to reloading I seem to think it doesnt, Im guessing anodizing would cost as much as the frame or more, Id probably do some thing foolish like slap an HCS Mk12 Mod0 upper on it and say "Yes I saved a bunch on building this".

 

[sirhrmechanic]

LR31. It's not worth it from a financial perspective. There are plenty of cheap lowers out there. It's not worth it from a 'keep off the radar' perspective... because the radar isn't that good.

It is totally worth it from a personal satisfaction point of view... and knowing that you've done something with your hands.

I've never built an 80 percent AR. No point from my perspective.

Here are a couple of 'non-ghost guns' I did a couple of years ago. BREN receivers. I didn't do any welding. Because to join the parts before putting in the bolt-blocking bars... would have made it a Class III. So I did all the milling to fit the parts perfectly, set it up on jigs. And sent to a restoration specialist who put in the receiver blocks that make it into a legal, serialized semi-auto receiver.

The satisfaction of taking a pile of torch cut junk and restoring two classic WW2 British BREN guns to working (albeit semiautomatic) condition... priceless! That's why people build guns... not because the voices under the tinfoil hats say... "You need a ghost gun" But because doing stuff with your hands... is way cooler than doing things with a Mastercard.

Enjoy and cheers, Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Id suggest he pick an easier first project than the machinists dream that the Luger is.

Yup, I even offered him for free a very worn out and not-great-condition Smith Chiefs Special. Would require a ton of work to make it right. But, nope.... And there is someone making Luger's from scratch these days! Lugerman or similar. But doubt he sells partial guns. Or 80 percent. But apparently, he has been making reproductions of the U.S. Army trials .45 ACP Luger. For $7K.

That said, my buddy is fully capable of doing it. He has built telescopes from scratch and built his own Orrery... not from a kit. Guy is insanely talented with a file and stones. But he was never into firearms... until he saw that story! Love it!

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[pmclaine]

Orrery......

There is a nerd word, had to look it up.

Thank you for expanding my vocabulary.

My wife works for the Smithsonian. Ill have to drop that at the next function and cause them to suspect cro magnon man.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

theres really no benefit to buying an 80% over just buying a premade lower.

the whole "staying off the radar" thing is just a bunch of BS.......unless you are a prohibited person.....there is no "radar" so to speak.

people who buy 80% do so because they enjoy building stuff, and have pride in making something themselves......but the end results are almost always worse than a ready made lower.

now with the right jigging, AND the right tools they can be pretty easy to make.........for AR lowers, you generally need a mill to get it to look halfway decent...........ive seen the ones made with just a drill press, and they all look like dog shit.


the other benefit is if you live in a state like MA, we have an "approved handgun list".....which is a list of guns that are approved for a dealer to sell.......however, this does not mean you can only own guns on that list......

for example, i cannot go to a dealer and buy a new glock, because they arent approved for sale.......i can however legally own a glock(stupid law i know)....so i can legally make my own glock lower, and build a glock with an 80% kit.

regarding registering, you only need to register it if your state requires you to register firearms in the first place.........i dont know of any state that requires you to register firearms just because they are homemade

Very informative. +1 props for the explanation. Thanks!

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

There was a Colt 6920 in the Hide classifieds for $695 last week.

I dont see making a "quality" gun cheaper than that.

The under the radar thing only matters if you see the possibility of confiscation and assume that will not cause an immediate backlash.

In my state you would have to "register" it to be in compliance. Some other places perhaps not.

The idea interests me but my standards would require some expensive tooling, I would obsess over it so much Id have hundreds of hours of my time in it which does have a value but when it comes to reloading I seem to think it doesnt, Im guessing anodizing would cost as much as the frame or more, Id probably do some thing foolish like slap an HCS Mk12 Mod0 upper on it and say "Yes I saved a bunch on building this".

Lol

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

LR31. It's not worth it from a financial perspective. There are plenty of cheap lowers out there. It's not worth it from a 'keep off the radar' perspective... because the radar isn't that good.

It is totally worth it from a personal satisfaction point of view... and knowing that you've done something with your hands.

I've never built an 80 percent AR. No point from my perspective.

Here are a couple of 'non-ghost guns' I did a couple of years ago. BREN receivers. I didn't do any welding. Because to join the parts before putting in the bolt-blocking bars... would have made it a Class III. So I did all the milling to fit the parts perfectly, set it up on jigs. And sent to a restoration specialist who put in the receiver blocks that make it into a legal, serialized semi-auto receiver.

The satisfaction of taking a pile of torch cut junk and restoring two classic WW2 British BREN guns to working (albeit semiautomatic) condition... priceless! That's why people build guns... not because the voices under the tinfoil hats say... "You need a ghost gun" But because doing stuff with your hands... is way cooler than doing things with a Mastercard.

Enjoy and cheers, Sirhr

View attachment 6874603

View attachment 6874601

This Brens are sexy! Look great, amazing job. Also, thanks for the info! I want to see those things in action, any videos?

 

[pmclaine]

View attachment 6874607

Oh Mars has no moons..........slacker.

 

[FS1]

You are traveling in another dimension. A dimension not only of sight and sound, but of lunacy. A journey into the wonderful land of insanity. Next stop, the Liberal zone.

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

Speaking of ghost guns, look how my mint app clarifies my gun spending... ghost spending. Lmfao, this just came through.

 

[pmclaine]

Speaking of ghost guns, look how my mint app clarifies my gun spending... ghost spending. Lmfao, this just came through.

Looks like they have it right.....buying gun stuff generally results in a happy ending, being 0311 Im sure you are aware what happens in Olongapo stays in Olongapo......or gets taken care of at BAS when you get back to Oki anyway.

 

[LRSHOOTER0311]

Looks like they have it right.....buying gun stuff generally results in a happy ending, being 0311 Im sure you are aware what happens in Olongapo stays in Olongapo......or gets taken care of at BAS when you get back to Oki anyway.

Lmfao, to true... to true. Don’t forget the first rule of Olongapo club...

 

[oneshot86]

View attachment 6874607

wow...
he made one of those????
its on my bucket list now
real cool

 

[buffalowinter]

Fat, dumb and happy. Always thought that an Orrery was an Astrolabe...been wrong all my life.

 

[pmclaine]

I thought Orrery was a generic cookie manufactured of two chocolate pieces with creme filling.

You know "Mmm this tastes Orre(o)ry


and isnt astrolabe the point between a females gentalia and the anus?

 

[Rthur]

I thought Orrery was a generic cookie manufactured of two chocolate pieces with creme filling.

You know "Mmm this tastes Orre(o)ry


and isnt astrolabe the point between a females gentalia and the anus?

I thought astrolabe was a new version of astroglide.

R

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Preverts... You're all a bunch of deviated Preverts... and you're going to have to answer to the Coca-Cola company.....

Cheers,

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

 

[Threadcutter308]

Speaking of ghost guns, look how my mint app clarifies my gun spending... ghost spending. Lmfao, this just came through.

Haven't I seen this before ? SPAM ?