Glock 22 grip and basic marksmanship

[timelinex]

So I just got my first full size handgun (only had rifles and a walther p22 before).

As far as handgun fundamentals, I know this much:
1. 90 degree trigger finger
2, riding up on the back as high as you can with the middle of the web of your hand
3. thumbs should apply no pressure and both should point forward towards the target.

Along with other general fundamentals like follow thru, I have done these with my walther and feel like I have done well with the handgun.

Now comes the glock 22. My problem is if I put the gun exactly on the web of my hand and have my thumbs pointed forward, then my trigger is definitely far from a straight back 90 degree pull.In fact, I'm barely reaching the trigger, and that's considering I don't have small hands by any means!

If I set up my hand for a 90 degree trigger pull, then my left hands thumb is still facing forward but my right thumb ends up resting on my left thumbs second knuckle, bladed off and facing away from the gun and target. Also instead of sitting in the middle of the web of my hand, the gun is on the left end of the web with my right hands second thumb knuckle touching the back/top part of the grip. It sits in the same place on my walther, and even though I feel like it gives me good control, the recoil definitely irritates the knuckle bone by the end of the shooting session. Considering the recoil is much higher on a 40 vs 22, I don't want it to completely bruise that area!

Any advice would be appreciated

 

[kraigWY]

First I'd suggest finding a gun, or switching grips until you get one that fits. Play with the gun (empty of course) until it feels as comfortable in your hand as a cell phone feels to a teenage girl.

For the latter I'd highly recommend getting one of those hard rubber, blue, training guns the same as what ever pistol/revolver you choose and constantly fondle it. Practice drawing and presentation.

As to grip, I'm a firm believer in most pistol shooting should be done one handed, two thirds with your weak hand, 1/3 with your strong hand.

You're finger should be able to reach the trigger. You need to be able to adjust your groups by trigger placement. If your groups are to the left (right handed shooter) pull your finger out of the trigger guard a bit. It its to the right, push your finger deeper into the trigger guard a bit (for left handed shooters reverse this).

This can best be observed dry firing using laser sights. Watch the dot, push your finger deeper and pull it out and see what the dot does when you drop the hammer.

Then, after you think you have it down, practice your 3-3-3 drills. Three shots in three seconds at three yards (from the holster, pocket or however you carry your handgun). Get good with that and then your ready to start learning to shoot a pistol.

This is for action style shooting, bullseye is a bit different but then you wouldn't use a glock 22 in bullseye.

Pay attention to the idea one handed shooting. Everyone seems to do all their pistol shooting with two hands. I've carried a pistol/revolver a lot, in the military and LE. I can think of a very few times when I needed (or prepared to need) a pistol/revolver I had two hands free. You always have something in your other hand, flashlight, door knob, wife or kid you're protecting, ticket book, mirror, bad guy you've apprehended. There is something always preventing you from using two hands.

I teach a womens firearms safety and self defense class, (as well as other SD/CCW classes) and I seldom let my students use two hands.

Remember the 3-3-3 is a starting place, based on the idea most SD situations are with 3 or less rounds, in three seconds at three yards. But that's starting. You have to move to other "unconventional positions" setting in chair/recliner/couch, in your car, on your butt (as if you were knocked down at an ATM or something). Hanging on to a child (we have a large rag doll for this), bag of groceries. The positions are endless.

First, the handgun needs to fit.

 

[gixxer822]

take a course man before you develop bad habits. if your interested ill be stateside in March. i help my kids train up at BenAvery if you wanted to say hi. if you pm me and i know of a few good guys in Az thtll point u in the right direction. well shit actually ill get u a free 2 hr course.

 

[timelinex]

First I'd suggest finding a gun, or switching grips until you get one that fits. Play with the gun (empty of course) until it feels as comfortable in your hand as a cell phone feels to a teenage girl.

For the latter I'd highly recommend getting one of those hard rubber, blue, training guns the same as what ever pistol/revolver you choose and constantly fondle it. Practice drawing and presentation.

As to grip, I'm a firm believer in most pistol shooting should be done one handed, two thirds with your weak hand, 1/3 with your strong hand.

You're finger should be able to reach the trigger. You need to be able to adjust your groups by trigger placement. If your groups are to the left (right handed shooter) pull your finger out of the trigger guard a bit. It its to the right, push your finger deeper into the trigger guard a bit (for left handed shooters reverse this).

This can best be observed dry firing using laser sights. Watch the dot, push your finger deeper and pull it out and see what the dot does when you drop the hammer.

Then, after you think you have it down, practice your 3-3-3 drills. Three shots in three seconds at three yards (from the holster, pocket or however you carry your handgun). Get good with that and then your ready to start learning to shoot a pistol.

This is for action style shooting, bullseye is a bit different but then you wouldn't use a glock 22 in bullseye.

Pay attention to the idea one handed shooting. Everyone seems to do all their pistol shooting with two hands. I've carried a pistol/revolver a lot, in the military and LE. I can think of a very few times when I needed (or prepared to need) a pistol/revolver I had two hands free. You always have something in your other hand, flashlight, door knob, wife or kid you're protecting, ticket book, mirror, bad guy you've apprehended. There is something always preventing you from using two hands.

I teach a womens firearms safety and self defense class, (as well as other SD/CCW classes) and I seldom let my students use two hands.

Remember the 3-3-3 is a starting place, based on the idea most SD situations are with 3 or less rounds, in three seconds at three yards. But that's starting. You have to move to other "unconventional positions" setting in chair/recliner/couch, in your car, on your butt (as if you were knocked down at an ATM or something). Hanging on to a child (we have a large rag doll for this), bag of groceries. The positions are endless.

First, the handgun needs to fit.

Kraig,

As usual, your post is filled with a bunch of knowledge and is very helpful. I never actually thought about your one handed argument and your absolutely right. I always associated 1 handed shooting as 'gangster shooting', but your explanation definitely changed that view.

I might have not explained myself correctly however. There is nothing uncomfortable about holding the weapon, after trying all the glock sizes and a couple other guns, this one was actually the most comfortable in my hand. I just believe I might be missing something, which is leading to me not having both thumbs pointing forward. I know it can't be the combination of the gun and me, since I have above average hand size, so if this common gun is too big for me it would be too big for most.


Maybe I will try taking a picture of my hand position, and that will help explain myself.

take a course man before you develop bad habits. if your interested ill be stateside in March. i help my kids train up at BenAvery if you wanted to say hi. if you pm me and i know of a few good guys in Az thtll point u in the right direction. well shit actually ill get u a free 2 hr course.

PM sent your way!

 

[timelinex]

Ok so here are some pictures, they aren't the best but should give you guys an idea of what I'm talking about.

Here is the comfortable position I have, when I am putting my focus on the 90 degree trigger pull. Notice how my right thumb isn't pointing fully forward and that the gun actually sits a little left of the center of my hands web. When I dry fire with this position, it feels solid and there is minimal sight movement:

Now heres what happens when I try to focus on making sure my thumbs are pointing forward. Notice how my trigger finger is bladed off and I'm dragging wood:

 

[kraigWY]

I think I see something here (from your pictures). You have two hands, even shooting two handed you have two hands.

Grip the pistol first with your strong or shooting hand, then grip your shooting hand with your none shooting hand. I'm looking at your thumbs. The thumb on your support hand should be on top of your shooting thumb. The picture has it backwards.

First, you get a firm but NOT HARD grip with your shooting hand. Your support had provides the hard grip but over the hand not the gun.

Again, grip you pistol with your hand. Now grip the shooting hand with the support hand. Get the firm grip with the support hand.

Remember it don't take much movement of the front sight to move the impat off the target.

Lets say you're shooting a pistol with a 4 inch sight radius at a target thats 15 yards away.

Thank about it, Crook your trigger finger, as if you were shooting the pistol. Now squeeze your fist as tight as you can and see if you can move your trigger finger without moving the fist. Now relax your fist and move your trigger finger. You'll see you get less movement of the fist when you move your trigger finger.

A little test I like to do is to lay a sheet of paper on the table, draw a line down the paper. Get a salt and pepper shaker and set them apart on the line (close enough you can grip one and put your trigger finger on the other).

Now grip one shaker as hard as you can and draw the second, with your trigger finger, back, keeping it centered on the line.

Now do the same thing with a more relaxes grip of the shaker in the fist. You'll see its easier to keep the second shaker on the line when you draw it back with your trigger finger.

It just impossible to not disturb movement of the gun by activating the trigger with a tight grip. Relax your hand and you'll get less movement.

Lets say you have a 4 inch sighting radius and are shooting 15 yards. Each .0074 movement of the sights moves your impact 1 MOA.

Another thing, look at your last picture. The trigger finger should not touch the side of the gun. The only part of that finger that tuches the gun is the part that sets on the trigger. Again, this will cause less movement of the gun while moving the trigger finger.

 

[kraigWY]

To add, I'm all for and highly recommend training.

The problem I have is most people can't afford them. Many instructors charge big bucks for short classes. Fine if you can afford it.

Not saying their wrong, they are trying to run a business and have overhead and families to feed.

Still, I hate to see SD become a rich man's game. I don't charge anything for my classes. I doubt I'd get the women I get on my weekly classes because most are single mothers.

The club wanted to charge a range fee for our indoor range but I fought that and got it waved.

The difference between me and most instructors is I have good pensions and I don't need the money. The Government (Fed, State, and Local) spent a lot of money on my "firearm instructor training" I'm just trying to pay the tax payer back.

Again, this is not to slam professional trainers. Use them if they if you can afford them, most I know about are exceptional instructors.

 

[timelinex]

Kraig,

I will rebuild my grip based on your advise, later today, and see how it is. I know that my grip looks tight in the picture, but I generally don't grip the weapon too tight. I was gripping it tighter than normal for the picture.

As for the dragging wood on the last picture, thats the picture of how I hold the weapon when I'm not doing a 90 degree trigger, so thats not how I actually hold it.

 

[gixxer822]

I thought the thumb over was more of a revolver grip. I see a few flaws. Practice drawing from a holster. Thenyoull see why ppl use the web as a reference. You look like your cupping it somewht. Correct, leave a lil space between trigger finger and frame so your not pushing it. Wht stance do you use?

 

[timelinex]

Ok, after watching alot more videos and doing more reading, I'm starting to realize something.... Is the 90 degree trigger pull that is taught so vigialantly for rifle, not apply for handguns?? I know you want to pull it back as straight back as possible. For rifles, that means the pad and second part of your index finger are locked completely straight and perpendicular to the trigger. The more I watch, I see that people are not doing this for handguns.

Have I been approaching this wrong? For rifles, I know the grip should be doing trigger back. For handguns am I suppose to first build my grip on the gun and then adjust my finger until I am pulling straight back?

 

[ShtrRdy]

I've been more of a pistol shooter and am learning rifle now. My trigger finger is not at a strickly 90 degree angle as is taught for rifle. It's important to press the trigger straight back but not as critical as with the rifle. Therefore I would recommend seating the pistol into the web of your shooting hand and hopefully you can reach the trigger with the pad of your index finger.

 

[Pat Harrison]

Two things. One, you need to figure out what it takes to pull the trigger straight back, you may need less or more finger on the trigger but you'll have to pay attention to the sights in live fire and dry fire to determine that. Try pulling the trigger at full speed and see if there is movement, if you see the front sight move side ways its likely your trigger finger causing it.
Two, your support hand is not being effective. It is too low on the gun and cocked on an angle. The base of the thumb and heel of the hand should be in full contact with the frame, the pad of the index finger on your support hand should be in contact with the under side of the trigger guard.
I don't have a Glock but let me try to show you with a 1911:
First the strong hand, high on grip, finger not touching frame:

Finger is not right at 90 and nearer to the tip but on this size of trigger its the best I can manage, the key though is I can still pull the trigger without moving the sights:

Middle finger tight to the trigger guard, thumb high and leaves grip panel open for support hand

Notice how high my support hand rides? Compare this to your pic. Thumb is straight along the frame, grip panel is completely covered, if I had my shooting hand on the gun the thumb would ride right on top of this (shown later)

See how my support hand index finger is in contact with the trigger guard? Not the knuckle and theres no gap, the pad between the knuckles is in complete contact

And when everything comes together it should look like this: