Good, bad shooter (fundamentally)?

[Pete B]

I understand the context of this statement, but am interested in the thoughts of others regarding its real world validity.
In a competition are we more concerned with the journey/process or the destination/result?
In real life, we are certainly more concerned with the result........

Is the bad shooter aspect solely stemming from "if the shooter had better fundamentals, he would be an even better shooter?"
Though if he is kicking everyone's asses, why should he change his successful process, on just the assumption that it would make him better.
And it is an ASSUMPTION....
Repeat-ability is our goal, personally if a bloke can have a perfect trigger press every time, whilst having his pinky finger inserted in his right nostril...?
Why change........
I don't think there is any argument in that Fundamentals are the place for all shooters to start, but is it necessary that all shooters remain with what is considered fundamentally sound, or in reality once they become more experienced chose their own versions of "what works for them"
Cheers
Pete

 

[hlee]

Some would say "it's not stupid if it works." The obverse of this is also true- "it is stupid if it doesn't work."

The trick is knowing what is what. Some balk at free recoil. It violates a lot of fundamentals- or the perception of many as to what the fundamentals are. Then again, what are the fundamentals? Breath control. Sight alignment. Trigger control. Recoil management.

Can you be a good shooter while not being good at these? I'd argue no. But, you could accomplish those fundamentals in a way that outwardly appears unorthodox. Your prone may be "way too high" or you kneeling position may violate what is generally seen on the line at a high power event. Hell you might "violate the fundamentals" in order to accomplish them. I've found that a bit of free recoil (low recoil management) on wobbly props allows me to eliminate wobble from accelerated heart rate (enhanced sight alignment).

You just can't consistently hit your target if your sights are all over the target, or your trigger press is erratic. Off a bench? Yeah, you could probably get to where you could consistently make small groups at 100 yards with poor recoil management, or a trigger press that is not 100% straight back.

I've rambled a lot but don't think I've come to a point. I don't think you can be a "good shooter" without applying the fundamentals of marksmanship. If a "good shooter with poor fundamentals" is consistently kicking ass in practical precision rifle comps, I'd argue his/her fundamentals are probably sound.

An an analogy... An instructor of mine once said "there is no wrong jiu jitsu, just jiu jitsu that works for you."

 

[seansmd]

I don't know why my analogies lately are about golf, but here we go. No one can watch Jim fuyrk seeing a golf club and say do it like that! Yet he is extremely successful in the largest stage. Equally you can go to any golf course and find pure and natural golf swings attached to shitty golfers. For me this is in the realm of conscious competence, vs unconscious competence.


The person with the proper training, the drive, and the feel will rise up, there will always be the Furyk exceptions.

Four stages of competence - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[morganlamprecht]

I don't know why my analogies lately are about golf, but here we go. No one can watch Jim fuyrk seeing a golf club and say do it like that! Yet he is extremely successful in the largest stage. Equally you can go to any golf course and find pure and natural golf swings attached to shitty golfers. For me this is in the realm of conscious competence, vs unconscious competence.


The person with the proper training, the drive, and the feel will rise up, there will always be the Furyk exceptions.

Four stages of competence - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

i was going to make a golf reference also

in golf, the only thing that REALLY matters is club path/impact mechanics...theres a new young guy out there from OK St...Matt Wolff, interesting swing...but even the guys with wild swings, if you pause a tour players swing at impact, theyre all really close to the same

to me it similar with shooting, if the trigger is pressed without the sights moving...the bullets gunna go were it goes, the supporting fundamentals are more about spotting shots and being solid for follow ups to me...ill post some pics from my phone of 2 groups i shot yesterday

group 1 was 5 shots...i turned my trigger down to ounces and i set the rifle on a bipod with a firm rear sand bag, aligned it on target and touched NOTHING but the trigger...not even looking thru the scope

group 2 was 3 shots i had left over...trigger was dialed back up to 1lb or so, and i shot like normal fundamentals

group 1, obviously i couldnt see where the bullets impacted and it took me about 5 min to shoot it realigning each shot...group 2 my sight picture never left the target and it took me about 18 seconds

 

[Deleted member 10043]

The good-bad shooter is kicking ass because everybody else is worse.

 

[seansmd]

The good-bad shooter is kicking ass because everybody else is worse.

Smartest kid in summer school!

 

[pmclaine]

I don't know why my analogies lately are about golf, but here we go. No one can watch Jim fuyrk seeing a golf club and say do it like that! Yet he is extremely successful in the largest stage. Equally you can go to any golf course and find pure and natural golf swings attached to shitty golfers. For me this is in the realm of conscious competence, vs unconscious competence.


The person with the proper training, the drive, and the feel will rise up, there will always be the Furyk exceptions.

Four stages of competence - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Good point about conscious/subconscious abilities.

Some people are a total soup sandwich but they are tapped into the Force......

(Obligatory golf analogy)



If an inviolable muscle memory develops and "consistency" matters as much as it seems to in shooting do repeatable bad fundamentals create small groups on target?

 

[hlee]

If an inviolable muscle memory develops and "consistency" matters as much as it seems to in shooting do repeatable bad fundamentals create small groups on target?

Sure. You ever shoot someone else's rifle and it doesn't hit the same point of impact as when the owner shoots it?

 

[Deleted member 10043]

I used to work on a golf course as a young man. Turns out regulars don't like setting the hole change on a green in an odd spot. It is not a stretch to figure out why. It fucked up their handicap. Good-bad golfers only familiar with the heart of the green over time. Out of their comfort zone and loss of fundamentals as much as some kid getting a kick out of pissing off the resident pro. An incidental intended reaction.