Advanced Marksmanship Good shooting = What groupsize?

[Kenntexx]

I just started shooting longrange rifle, after getting my AI AW .308 last week.

I havent done any of that sort before, eventhough i have been shooting a lot and many different types of shooting, for many years.

I keep beating myself up over an average of .6 MOA average in 18mph crosswinds at 200M. I shot in prone with bipod.
I shot 5 groups of 5 and 20 dots of 1" size, and going through all the target data i had an average of .61 MOA according to on-target program.

So my thought is, what is a good group average, how tight does it have to be, to be good shooting?
As i said, i have no experience what so ever of, what is good precision shooting.. ^_^
-Kenneth

 

[blklabs]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

Welcome to the addiction. Your good enough for now and you need to start stretching the legs of the AI. Stop shooting groups and work on making each shot count and execute it perfectly. Since you are new, you should really subscribe to the online lessons here, they will help you more than I can express.

 

[seanh]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

.6 at 200 isn't bad.

How did you know it was 18? One of those gauges? If so, toss it and learn how to read the wind without it. They don't do any good past arms length.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenntexx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I just started shooting longrange rifle, after getting my AI AW .308 last week.

I havent done any of that sort before, eventhough i have been shooting a lot and many different types of shooting, for many years.

I keep beating myself up over an average of .6 MOA average in 18mph crosswinds at 200M. I shot in prone with bipod.
I shot 5 groups of 5 and 20 dots of 1" size, and going through all the target data i had an average of .61 MOA according to on-target program.

So my thought is, what is a good group average, how tight does it have to be, to be good shooting?
As i said, i have no experience what so ever of, what is good precision shooting.. ^_^
-Kenneth</div></div>

Anybody, through trial and error, can hit what they're aiming at eventually, unless they have an IQ under 77. And, since it appears you can now hit what you are aiming at, in conditions you control, you might want to develop knowledge in the arena of ballistics and trajectory to get good hits at distances and in wind and weather where you are no longer the director of it all. Also, you may want to just take your position from the ground to the unsupported standing position, replacing the scope with irons, to see how your 200 yard groups look then. There's probably room for improvement there.

Fact is, doing what you are now doing only indicates you can execute the two firing tasks. And, since even intuitive execution of the firing tasks at SR can get good results, making those who actually no nothing about good shooting perceive that they know how to do it, you may want to take your current exercise out to mid-range, something like 600 yards. At mid-range, any sight misalignment or inconsistency in the relationship between the shooter, gun, and ground will reveal angular error, that's in addition to error from less than perfect wind counters.

Also, although another poster suggested you stop shooting groups, I'm not in that camp. Shooting groups with the objective of zero dispersion measures the shooter's picture and motor memory development like no other method out there. Add scorable targets, rather than hit or miss ones, and you'll be able to make a meaningful record of progress, putting you on a path to reach the highest plateaus of good shooting.

 

[Kenntexx]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

The weatherstations i got report from, is pretty accurate as it is but a few miles from an airport to. That's how i knew the wind, and had to gage downrange and not only at an arms reach.

And i know about repeatability, making the shot count(hit/miss) and making progress data for my work, as i am used to profenssionel sport.

I keep focus on my basics of shooting, as they are the fundamentals for hitting anything at any range.

It still doesn't answer my question though... >_<

-Kenneth

 

[timelinex]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenntexx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The weatherstations i got report from, is pretty accurate as it is but a few miles from an airport to. That's how i knew the wind, and had to gage downrange and not only at an arms reach.

And i know about repeatability, making the shot count(hit/miss) and making progress data for my work, as i am used to profenssionel sport.

I keep focus on my basics of shooting, as they are the fundamentals for hitting anything at any range.

It still doesn't answer my question though... >_<

-Kenneth</div></div>
Nobody can accuratly answer your questions,because its too broad. If you ask a bench rest shooter or a tactical shooter you will get different answer. There are bench rest shooters tghat have gotten their grous below the .1moa mark, but tell that to a tactical shooter and they will laugh and just say its a waste of time because as soon as your out of your perfect environment it means nothing.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kenntexx</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The weatherstations i got report from, is pretty accurate as it is but a few miles from an airport to. That's how i knew the wind, and had to gage downrange and not only at an arms reach.

And i know about repeatability, making the shot count(hit/miss) and making progress data for my work, as i am used to profenssionel sport.

I keep focus on my basics of shooting, as they are the fundamentals for hitting anything at any range.

It still doesn't answer my question though... >_<

-Kenneth</div></div>

Here's your answer: Your ambition should be for zero dispersion at any distance and in any condition the bullet can get to nose-on. Unless that's the objective you'll fall short of much less.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?


....but don't get hung up on groups. Do dot drills also. Shot proximity to an aiming point achieves similar training results as groups without the adverse psychological affect of the group's size and shape on the shooter. Practice hitting an aiming point. Because you're shooting .6, practice firing on 1moa targets in atmospheric conditions at farther distances as Sterling suggested.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Casey Simpson</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
....but don't get hung up on groups. Do dot drills also. Shot proximity to an aiming point achieves similar training results as groups without the adverse psychological affect of the group's size and shape on the shooter. Practice hitting an aiming point. Because you're shooting .6, practice firing on 1moa targets in atmospheric conditions at farther distances as Sterling suggested. </div></div>

At one point, I lost interest in shooting groups, since high power competition got me to thinking more about bullet placement, in general, and score. So, for awhile, I was just concerned about properly triangulating my shot strings to have confidence in my suspected zero. But, now, I realize this was not the mindset for the best results. I should have been shooting for zero dispersion all along. And group shooting, with the goal of getting round after round in the same hole, inspires the sort of motor and picture memory development that can make zero dispersion possible. Taking this highly developed picture and motor memory skill to the firing line where a string of fire will be sent to one target, like NRA LR, assures a better score even though the group is not likely to ever be measured.

Also, shooting something like 20 to 40 shot practice strings at one bull I think better accommodates shooter/target analysis for an understanding about the shooter's position consistency. This is possible since the occasional bad shot has a corollary with other shots taken from the NPA adjusted for a specific bull, making it easy to discern the particular factor which was out of place to cause the shot to be misplaced. With dots, which require a new position as opposed to a re-built position, it is dificult to discern a particular factor as the source for any measurable dispersion since there is never a group from which triangulation would reveal the actual zero from such adjusted position; and therefore, there is no way to know if the singular shot is right-in-there or not, other than what can be discerned from the call, which is to vague to understand any but very gross errors, especially at short distances where small divergences in position from shot to shot do not reveal the effect of angular error.

My final word on the matter is that group shooting with the goal of zero dispersion is an excellent excercise for developing motor/picture memory skills as are useful in competitions such as NRA LR. For what is described here quite often as precision shooting, dot shooting may reveal enough understanding about good shooting when the target is scored hit or miss.

 

[Kenntexx]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

Thanks for the advice ! ^_^

That was a really good point sterling shooter, the bullet is always flying true... !

I will keep aiming for perfection, even though it's a moving target. I will just have to stay focused.

-Kenneth

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

The thing most important here is to develop what ever skills are needed to get good hits in conditions which you do not or cannot direct.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

I can sympathize with those who consider groups size to be irrelevent. But they are clearly important to some.

I see them as a means of performance comparison, telling me whether my tackdriving foo is good today, or whether the test loads I am shooting are any better or worse than the ones which went just prior. But for me, they are about me, and only me, and not a subject that relates at any distance or in any company.

For me, the measure of my performance among other is whatever comes out of a competitive shooting event. Scores tell that tale.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

I suggest to folks having an interest in becoming extraordinary marksmen that they get into some sort of competition, since becoming a really good shot requires extraordinary discipline; and without being rewarded for the effort, most folks are just likely to quit before getting to the highest plateaus.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

There is truth in that. Like all coins, it has another side.

When things don't go well and refuse to change, it can be uncommonly frustrating. For me, it brought a stark realization that between age and infirmity, some things were now part of an earlier stage of my life.

But I still shoot and compete, and I still enjoy it with a real intensity. I just do it different.

Basically, I've gotten up off the ground and now do it from the bench. That still works quite well enough for me.

No, it's not a direct competition, but my good fortune is such that there are others who have joined me in my odd little slice of the discipline, and that's very much good enough to keep me fully motivated.

So as I have been known to say in the past, there be many ways, My Young Sunny Jim, to defur yon felines...

Greg

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

depends on the conditions, the caliber, the distance, the firearm itself (off the shellf or accurazed / custom), is it a question of group size vs. shooter ability / experience or training. MOA or under seems to be the standard.

i believe a session of good shooting is not how many hits the shooter has made, but also the shooters ability to know and call his miss (f' up) before the spotter or spotting scope can confirm that is where the miss ended up. to me this really shows that the shooter knows him / her self and their equipment, and that they pulled a shot then knowing where and why it happened. of course the next shot is just as important - the ability to overcome correct what just happened and get back on track - now that's good shooting.

 

[seanh]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

I'll have to 2nd being able to call F'd shots. I had that happen today where I had shots go wild (an inch or so out). About 70% of them I was able to call before recoil was finished. You know the shots...soon as the sear trips you drop an f bomb and know what you did wrong.

Today for me it was me not being behind the rifle properly...bad npa trying to push the gun where I want it to go. Or simply bad trigger pull, or letting one go and just after you do forgetting to comp for wind.

My groups without the screw ups were .75 to 1.25 depending on amo but had a few that went 1.75 to 2.3" because my dumb ass couldn't mount the gun.

So what do I do. Start shooting dirt clauds at 300-400 and promptly went to 600 to shoot plate. Too easy...until I went prone, no bipod, just me and the sling. Now that shit was fun.

What did I learn today...I suck and need to shoot more. also 600 plate is too easy from a bench (I need smaller plate...all I had was 12" and torso size)

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: Good shooting = What groupsize?

IMHO being able to shoot a tight group is a sign of being a good shooter, but a tight group or two doesn't necessarily mean one is a good shooter.

Knowledge and the practical application of that knowledge is to me what makes for a good shooter. While fundementals are the prerequisite for making hits, at a distance it would seem that they are merely an elementary jump off point for a much more difficult subject - mastery of environmental conditions.

To me, a good shooter can do it all in any condition, with little, if any specialized gear.


Good luck