Got Testosterone?

Will Brink

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Oct 13, 2010
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www.optimalswat.com
Got Test?
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by Will Brink

As hormone replacement therapy (HRT) has become much more common place, and there is a growing understanding that keeping men in the “healthy” range for testosterone (T) has various benefits, I wanted to briefly address the issue. For those who need a refresher on the basics of blood work, see my article “It’s in your blood."


To review the general issues of low T in men, according to one recent review by a Dr. Shabsigh and colleagues:

“Hypogonadism (low testosterone) is associated with central obesity; insulin resistance; low levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL); high cholesterol levels; and high levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL), triglycerides, fibrinogen, and plasminogen activator-1. Some observational studies show a correlation between low testosterone and cardiovascular disease (CVD), and others show no correlation. Interventional studies do not reveal a direct long-term relation between testosterone therapy and CVD. Short-term data suggest cardiovascular benefits of testosterone.”•

The above review also leaves out other known effects of low T, such as loss of libido, depression, loss of muscle mass and decreases performance, as well as other issues best avoided.

Most studies find clear health benefits for men with hypogonadism treated with HRT. However, some fears of long term side effects such as cardio vascular disease (CVD) and prostate cancer have been raised. These fears appear to be unfounded, with benefits to the cardio vascular system for men low in T.

So what of the risks of CVD or prostate cancer with HRT?

The jury is still out, but most data does not find an association between HRT and CVD or prostate cancer. For example, a retrospective analysis by researchers at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center published in The New England Journal of Medicine found no causal relationship between testosterone replacement and prostate cancer or heart disease risk. According to Dr. Abraham Morgentaler:

“We reviewed decades of research and found no compelling evidence that testosterone replacement therapy increases the incidence of prostate cancer or cardiovascular disease.”••

This review of 72 studies puts to rest-at least for me- that there is any risk of testosterone replacement therapy, at least where it concerns CVD or prostate cancer. Not everyone would agree with that opinion however and anyone considering HRT should get full blood workup done and talk with their doctor about it.

But what about healthy men with normal testosterone levels taking additional testosterone? That’s a little less clear at this time. Studies are conflicting whether or not adding additional testosterone to men with normal levels presents an increased risk. However, a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) – considered one of the most prestigious medical and scientific journals in the world – found healthy men given 600mg per week of testosterone enanthate did not suffer any side effects, negative changes in lipid profiles, and did not see a rise in prostate-specific antigens, or increased aggression. •••

But what if the person has already had a heart attack? Interestingly, one study suggests testosterone therapy may actually help after a heart attack, but it’s preliminary research done on animals. ••••

This is just a sample of the many studies published on the topic. Finally, what about the very high doses used by high level bodybuilders and other athletes? That’s petty much an unknown at this time. As with many hormones, below a certain levels, health issues arise and above a certain level, the same thing happens, though the health issues may or may not be the same. For example, very high levels or very low levels of T may present an increased risk for cardiovascular disease (CVD) but far more is known about too little vs. too much when it comes to testosterone and CVD or prostate issues, etc. At the very high doses used by some athletes it would not surprise me if there was an increased risk of CVD but data is scarce here. So what’s the take home?

• For men with low testosterone, studies are quite clear the benefit of HRT outweigh the risks by a long shot.

• In men with normal testosterone who take moderate doses (defined here as 600mg per week or less), there appears to be little risk, at least in the short term. Other side effects, such as acne, hair loss (if genetically susceptible) and others are still possible however and should not be ignored

• In bodybuilders and other athletes taking very high doses, say above 1000mg per week or more, the risks are unclear and not recommended without very close medical supervision, especially if other risk factors are involved, such as a family history of CVD, etc.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the issue.

Cites:

• Cardiovascular issues in hypogonadism and testosterone therapy.Am J Cardiol. 2005 Dec 26;96(12B):67M-72M.

••http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases…0129072631.htm

••• “The Effects Of Supraphysiologic Doses Of Testosterone On Muscle Size And Strength In Normal Men (vol.336, July, 96).

•••• Cardiovasc Res. 2003 Feb;57(2):370-8.

Effect of testosterone on post-myocardial infarction remodeling and function. Cardiovasc Res. 2003 Feb;57(2):370-8
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

Thanks for the info Will, certainly glad to have such an expert like you aboard. I think this Fitness section is getting better by the minute.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deerhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 600mg per week of testosterone enanthate is a low dose? I thought hrt was 200mg. </div></div>

It's not a low dose, it's a moderate/high dose as outlined above. 200mg <span style="text-decoration: underline">per week</span> would be high for HRT in most cases, but you didn't mention dosing schedule. 200mg every 2 weeks is not uncommon, but not an optimal schedule.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dagsta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the info Will, certainly glad to have such an expert like you aboard. I think this Fitness section is getting better by the minute. </div></div>

Glad to help.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deerhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 600mg per week of testosterone enanthate is a low dose? I thought hrt was 200mg. </div></div>

600mg per week is a high dose, if you re-read what he's posted, all it says is that in body builders who use that high of a dose, there may or may not be negative effects. Normal dose for HRT is 100mg per week.

ETA. delayed post.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deerhunter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> 600mg per week of testosterone enanthate is a low dose? I thought hrt was 200mg. </div></div>

600mg per week is a high dose, if you re-read what he's posted, all it says is that in body builders who use that high of a dose, there may or may not be negative effects. Normal dose for HRT is 100mg per week.

ETA. delayed post. </div></div>

I use 600mg as that's what was used in the NEJM study. No idea why they chose that dose, which by bodybuilder standards would be a moderate dose, and fairly common. By HRT standards, very high dose, and T levels would be off the charts no doubt.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">600mg per week is a high dose, if you re-read what he's posted, all it says is that in body builders who use that high of a dose, there may or may not be negative effects. Normal dose for HRT is 100mg per week.

ETA. delayed post. </div></div>600mg/wk is a high dose when the context is HRT. It is NOT a high dose for a bodybuilder.

I'll just leave it at that, as the subject of this thread is HRT.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">600mg per week is a high dose, if you re-read what he's posted, all it says is that in body builders who use that high of a dose, there may or may not be negative effects. Normal dose for HRT is 100mg per week.

ETA. delayed post. </div></div>600mg/wk is a high dose when the context is HRT. <span style="font-weight: bold">It is NOT a high dose for a bodybuilder. </span>I'll just leave it at that, as the subject of this thread is HRT. </div></div>
when i was bodybuilding it wasnt even a cruising dose...

bench
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: benchmstr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
when i was bodybuilding it wasnt even a cruising dose...

bench </div></div>Lol, I was going to say how much some guys I knew used, but I didn't think it would be constructive at all to this thread. Just got a little chuckle at 600mg being a high dose.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bm11</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: benchmstr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
when i was bodybuilding it wasnt even a cruising dose...

bench </div></div>Lol, I was going to say how much some guys I knew used, but I didn't think it would be constructive at all to this thread. Just got a little chuckle at 600mg being a high dose. </div></div>
i competed as a super heavyweight in NPC for a while...and am friends with several pro's.....its amazing what the human body can endure
grin.gif


bench
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bio-identical hormone for things like this were do you get it? How much per dose? </div></div>

The "bio identical" issue applies to estrogen given to women. I don't see how it applies to testosterone however.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

testosterone is being made. I have even seen were they are making T3 and T4 and some others. The HR for men is now becoming a normal thing for men and not just women.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

I take 100mg a week by IM . Sleep better Feel better Don't get lazy in the afternoons and Burns fat ....

Just get your blood checked ever 3 months and make sure it's not creating estrogen or you gonna get man boobs.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">testosterone is being made. I have even seen were they are making T3 and T4 and some others. The HR for men is now becoming a normal thing for men and not just women. </div></div>

Yes, but that's not my point. My point is, there's no application to "bio identical" testosterone as there is for estrogen in women. Not chemically or biologically speaking. The testosterone is identical to what the human body produces and is not made from horse urine as is estrogen for women.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will Brink</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">testosterone is being made. I have even seen were they are making T3 and T4 and some others. The HR for men is now becoming a normal thing for men and not just women. </div></div>

Yes, but that's not my point. My point is, there's no application to "bio identical" testosterone as there is for estrogen in women. Not chemically or biologically speaking. The testosterone is identical to what the human body produces and is not made from horse urine as is estrogen for women. </div></div>

But if you take to much testosterone it can aromatize and your body will fill up with estrogen. Not good in men.

Estrogen can come from pregnant mares urine like a brand called Premarim or you can get a natural one that you can get bioidenticals compounded from natural sources

600mg of testosterone per week is dangerous on your liver as well as shrink your privates and give you severe cystic acne

 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will Brink</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">testosterone is being made. I have even seen were they are making T3 and T4 and some others. The HR for men is now becoming a normal thing for men and not just women. </div></div>

Yes, but that's not my point. My point is, there's no application to "bio identical" testosterone as there is for estrogen in women. Not chemically or biologically speaking. The testosterone is identical to what the human body produces and is not made from horse urine as is estrogen for women. </div></div>

But if you take to much testosterone it can aromatize and your body will fill up with estrogen. Not good in men.

Estrogen can come from pregnant mares urine like a brand called Premarim or you can get a natural one that you can get bioidenticals compounded from natural sources

<span style="font-weight: bold">600mg of testosterone per week is dangerous on your liver as well as shrink your privates and give you severe cystic acne</span>
</div></div>
there is a chance of that...its not a 100% thing....and thats why you cycle...i dont condone the use of these compounds in anyway, and havent used in almost 5 years.......but at one point i was blasting over 3grams of test a week, and over a gram of eq, and 800mg of tren.....liver? a little strained by the tren but i cleansed it....junk shrunk?..no, thats what HCG is for....cystic acne?...never at all...

most of the info out there on AAS is pure bro science thought up by peole too lazy to do their research...if the stuff is so bad where are the bodies?

bench
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

Jesus...3 grams?


I know a guy who knows a guy and he did 600MG of T and 300 of Tren and I was benching over 400 squatting 600+ with 9% BF. 200MG per week of Test E seems like it would make your blood levels really unstable.


How much of this is actually necessary for the ordinary guy though? Actual ordinary weight lifting especially a good leg workout has been reported to increase natural Test production as well as all the other good things that come with working out.

Is this something necessary or something people need so they dont have to workout or take care of themselves?


This is the info I'm referring too.........
<span style="font-weight: bold">
“Hypogonadism (low testosterone) is associated with central obesity; insulin resistance; low levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL); high cholesterol levels; and high levels of low-density lipoprotein (LDL), triglycerides, fibrinogen, and plasminogen activator-1. Some observational studies show a correlation between low testosterone and cardiovascular disease (CVD), and others show no correlation. Interventional studies do not reveal a direct long-term relation between testosterone therapy and CVD. Short-term data suggest cardiovascular benefits of testosterone.”•
</span>
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

Well great for you ....Yes you can cycle but AAS are not for HRT.

My wife is a Dr that specializes in HRT as a few can attest to here, so it's not the internet where I get my information.HCG can bring your estrodiol and estrogen levels down and can reduce side effects. But that's
from pregnant women's urine and a lot of weight loss clinic's prescribe it for fat burning and weight loss...

If you are on HRT you shouldn't need to counter it's affects if dosed properly. Using AAS for bulking is another story with risks
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Jesus...3 grams?


I know a guy who knows a guy and he did 600MG of T and 300 of Tren and I was benching over 400 squatting 600+ with 9% BF. 200MG per week of Test E seems like it would make your blood levels really unstable.


How much of this is actually necessary for the ordinary guy though? Actual ordinary weight lifting especially a good leg workout has been reported to increase natural Test production as well as all the other good things that come with working out.

Is this something necessary or something people need so they dont have to workout? </div></div>

HRT is to raise your testosterone levels to a normal range and not to exceed it.As you age your testosterone output is lower and HRT brings you into a normal range. Yes you will gain strength burn body fat sleep better and increase your sex drive and get your energy back. The major pitfall is if you get cancer or like illness it will rapidly accelerate it that why you need constant blood work

If you dont like shots you can get a rub on cream called Testim or they do pellets now but there have been some issue with them
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course test drops off but how much of it can be countered by just taking better care of yourself without resorting to a needle? </div></div>

If you dont like shots you can get a rub on cream called Testim or they do pellets now but there have been some issue with them

You cannot raise it substantially enough to make a great difference in your levels next time you get blood work ask your DR to test your levels
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

I'm still under 30 and when the GF's around i try and spend as little time clothed as possible so the test probably isn't relevant to me.

However being raised by a hippy mother of the 60's and somewhat holistically oriented anyhow I have fairly strong belief that Americans are generally over medicated......

My idea is that the mind and body are fairly well connected and improving the body can improve the mind which can improve self esteem etc.. etc..

Certainly theres cases, many cases, where medicine is absolutely needed but in many can improving ourselves fix what ails us?

In fact do me a favor...ask your wife how many in shape, seemingly attractive, self confident, happy men come in to see her as compared to a person who views themselves as unattractive, out of shape, somewhat depressed, etc...

I'm genuinely interested in what she says.

I've had similiar conversations with family members who are Dr's, Nurses, Drug reps etc... and its always interesting.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

HRT is replacing natural hormones in ones body.

As far as patients they come from all walks of life it rejuvenates you. Doesn't matter what you look like its how you feel and in ten or so years you may feel different but for now you sound like your doing great.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well great for you ....Yes you can cycle but AAS are not for HRT.

My wife is a Dr that specializes in HRT as a few can attest to here, so it's not the internet where I get my information.HCG can bring your estrodiol and estrogen levels down and can reduce side effects. But that's
from pregnant women's urine and a lot of weight loss clinic's prescribe it for fat burning and weight loss...

If you are on HRT you shouldn't need to counter it's affects if dosed properly. Using AAS for bulking is another story with risks </div></div>

A question for the Dr. If I understand your general statement, men on HRT who are maintaining their T level within the range for their age group shouldn't require HCG. For example the Total T range for 45-50 yo. is ~ 300-800ng/L the target most Dr's. shoot for is around 500. Depends on whether you use IM, which gives a fluctuating T level, or topical which is supposed to maintain a more steady state.

The question is, since exogenous T suppresses LH, FSH and essentially shuts down the bodies natural T production, wouldn't HCG be considered beneficial in HRT since it would help maintain LH & FSH production?
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">HRT is replacing natural hormones in ones body.

As far as patients they come from all walks of life it rejuvenates you. Doesn't matter what you look like its how you feel and in ten or so years you may feel different but for now you sound like your doing great. </div></div>

I understand all this but Heroin works on the same brain systems which activate when we orgasm but nobody is saying we should start shooting up to feel better all the time.

What I'm saying is that overall health and well being can be greatly upgraded without all the medicine just by taking better care or ourselves.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well great for you ....Yes you can cycle but AAS are not for HRT.

My wife is a Dr that specializes in HRT as a few can attest to here, so it's not the internet where I get my information.HCG can bring your estrodiol and estrogen levels down and can reduce side effects. But that's
from pregnant women's urine and a lot of weight loss clinic's prescribe it for fat burning and weight loss...

If you are on HRT you shouldn't need to counter it's affects if dosed properly. Using AAS for bulking is another story with risks </div></div>

A question for the Dr. If I understand your general statement, men on HRT who are maintaining their T level within the range for their age group shouldn't require HCG. For example the Total T range for 45-50 yo. is ~ 300-800ng/L the target most Dr's. shoot for is around 500. Depends on whether you use IM, which gives a fluctuating T level, or topical which is supposed to maintain a more steady state.

The question is, since exogenous T suppresses LH, FSH and essentially shuts down the bodies natural T production, wouldn't HCG be considered beneficial in HRT since it would help maintain LH & FSH production? </div></div>


First off testosterone cream tends automatizes which will exacerbate gynomastia there for IM Injections or Pellets will give you a higher serum testosterone level that doesn't fluctuate. LH and FSH levels are minuscule when your not producing testosterone.If you take both at the same time it do doesn't anything but potentially disturb the regulatory mechanism of the hypothalamus communicating to the pituitary which in turn controls the production of LH and FSH.

So only HCG for after a cycle of AAS to get your nuts back.

HCG has potent oncogenic effect ir Tumors Cancer

You think we check mens checks LH and FSH when they come in for HRT ......no why would we check ?

So in other words it doesn't mean anything and if your in for HRT ....HCG isn't going to make more natural testosterone. And it is not a common test done on men, if you have a vasectomy you wouldn't have any levels and it's usually done for fertility and HRT for fertility ?
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CS223 said:
You think we check mens checks LH and FSH when they come in for HRT ......no why would we check ?

So in other words it doesn't mean anything and if your in for HRT ....HCG isn't going to make more natural testosterone. And it is not a common test done on men, if you have a vasectomy you wouldn't have any levels and it's usually done for fertility and HRT for fertility ? </div></div>

What?!?!

WHY: Because if a patient presents with a low T level, there can be underlying causes. The most common is prolactinoma. If prolactin and FSH are elevated above the normal range it is an indicator and an MRI of the pituitary is warranted. Treating the tumor can restore levels to normal without HRT.

A vasectomy has NO effect on LH, FSH, prolactin or testosterone levels. All a vasectomy does is sever the vasa deferentia, the testicles and the Leydig cells produce testosterone just like they always did.

Most guys, especially younger ones would prefer that their testicles not atrophy as a result of HRT, if supplementing with HCG prevents that and keeps other hormone levels normal, I can't see why it wouldn't be an adjunct therapy to HRT.

Keep in mind the focus at least in my context is HRT, not body building, or restoring youth, just restoring & maintaining T levels in the normal range.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will Brink</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">testosterone is being made. I have even seen were they are making T3 and T4 and some others. The HR for men is now becoming a normal thing for men and not just women. </div></div>

Yes, but that's not my point. My point is, there's no application to "bio identical" testosterone as there is for estrogen in women. Not chemically or biologically speaking. The testosterone is identical to what the human body produces and is not made from horse urine as is estrogen for women. </div></div>

But if you take to much testosterone it can aromatize and your body will fill up with estrogen. Not good in men.

Estrogen can come from pregnant mares urine like a brand called Premarim or you can get a natural one that you can get bioidenticals compounded from natural sources

600mg of testosterone per week is dangerous on your liver as well as shrink your privates and give you severe cystic acne

</div></div>

Now you are just throwing out random statements. What's your science/med background for the conversation?
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rrflyer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Of course test drops off but how much of it can be countered by just taking better care of yourself without resorting to a needle? </div></div>

Two different issues. Yes, with a good diet, proper training, sleep, etc, one can optimize their T levels, but there's an age related drop off for many, and or low T levels for other possible reasons, some that can be figured out via tests, some that can't. Thus, men should have their T levels check at least once per year after age 35 in my view.

For some additional thoughts/info on the topic, read my article It's In Your Blood
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well great for you ....Yes you can cycle but AAS are not for HRT.

My wife is a Dr that specializes in HRT as a few can attest to here, so it's not the internet where I get my information.HCG can bring your estrodiol and estrogen levels down and can reduce side effects. But that's
from pregnant women's urine and a lot of weight loss clinic's prescribe it for fat burning and weight loss...

If you are on HRT you shouldn't need to counter it's affects if dosed properly. Using AAS for bulking is another story with risks </div></div>

A question for the Dr. If I understand your general statement, men on HRT who are maintaining their T level within the range for their age group shouldn't require HCG. For example the Total T range for 45-50 yo. is ~ 300-800ng/L the target most Dr's. shoot for is around 500. Depends on whether you use IM, which gives a fluctuating T level, or topical which is supposed to maintain a more steady state.

The question is, since exogenous T suppresses LH, FSH and essentially shuts down the bodies natural T production, wouldn't HCG be considered beneficial in HRT since it would help maintain LH & FSH production? </div></div>

Yes, but it's quite rare for docs to do it. They generally add the T, and that's about it. Some will also track E2 - and address/treat as needed - and even fewer will use HCC at specific intervals to keep the HPTA up and running. However, if one is put on HRT for life, it's not needed per se, but some men don't want to low sperm count, gonad shrinkage, etc that can come with T mono therapy that the HCG can prevent. Very few docs are really tuned in enough do all that however.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CS223 said:
tuna921 said:
So in other words it doesn't mean anything and if your in for HRT ....HCG isn't going to make more natural testosterone. And it is not a common test done on men, if you have a vasectomy you wouldn't have any levels and it's usually done for fertility and HRT for fertility ? </div></div>

But that's the main issue: men don't come off HRT, hence the name. It's not a "cycle." You are applying bbng/cycling mentality to a medical issue. As mentioned,a few docs will use HCG with T to avoid some of the HPTA issues, but most don't.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

I have followed this to a point. I'm just searching for the answer of "If you were going to put together a program for this HRT how would you do it?". I'm also in a agreement that few doctors are enough into this life style to give an expert opinion. This is why I have asked the strange questions that I have. I know the docs I can get what I want but it really needs to be a good straight forward plan that they will not have a problem with.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have followed this to a point. I'm just searching for the answer of "If you were going to put together a program for this HRT how would you do it?". I'm also in a agreement that few doctors are enough into this life style to give an expert opinion. This is why I have asked the strange questions that I have. I know the docs I can get what I want but it really needs to be a good straight forward plan that they will not have a problem with. </div></div>

Did you read my article linked above? Covers a lot of ground.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

This is about HRT and not infertility and thats how it was answered.These are not common tests. HRT is for when you get older and your body produces less T. There is no miracle cure for low T by way of your body producing more naturally back to your earlier levels when you were young.But with anything it can and does get abused,and when abused except for rare cases people use other hormones to offset the effects.

A more medical answer will be comming as she is working right now and I have her type it so it make sense.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Finris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have followed this to a point. I'm just searching for the answer of "If you were going to put together a program for this HRT how would you do it?". I'm also in a agreement that few doctors are enough into this life style to give an expert opinion. This is why I have asked the strange questions that I have. I know the docs I can get what I want but it really needs to be a good straight forward plan that they will not have a problem with. </div></div>

HRT is not about putting together a "program" or a "lifestyle". That would be more of the body building side of things and you will have a more difficult time getting a PCP to Rx. T for that use. Testosterone whether it's a topical gel or an injectable is a Class 3 controlled drug in the U.S.

If you suspect that you are suffering from low T based on the ADAM symptoms test in the link I posted on page 1, you would consult your PCP for a complete physical and blood panel.

HRT is about making up for the bodies lack of natural testosterone. The standard protocol is 3 blood draws on different days over the span of a few weeks to get an average serum T level. Standard test is Total T. The blood draws are taken in the morning, between 8 & 10 am because there is a circadian rhythm to your bodies production of T which peaks in the morning.

Depending on the results of those tests, your doctor may do additional blood work to measure Free & Bound T along with LH, FSH and prolactin. Especially in cases where the T level is substantially below normal like in the 100's.

Depending on the outcome of additional testing you might be refereed to an endocrinologist. If everything looks good and your levels are simply borderline low, you might be Rx'ed supplemental T in the form of a gel (Androgel or Testim) you apply to your shoulders & upper arms once a day. Not everyone responds to the gel. The next step might be a patch but many folks develop a sensitivity to the adhesive and some folks don't like the appearance of a patch, there is buccal form of T, Striant, it's a little adhesive dot stuck to the inside of your lip twice a day, the mucosa pass drugs easier than the skin. And then there is the injectable form, one injection a week. Some less informed docs will Rx one injection every two weeks or once a month. The problem is, testosterone cypionate has a half life of 5-8 days. If you inject bi-weekly, you'll be on an emotional roller coaster.

Two older forms of testosterone therapy involved shaving your testicles and applying an adhesive patch everyday, and inserting pellets under the skin. Both are now considered stone age forms of T therapy.

Here's another good publication on the topic. Dr. Crisler is a DO and not an MD so his methodologies may not be commensurate with a MD's assessment or treatment.

http://www.allthingsmale.com/word_docs/TRT.doc

His website http://www.allthingsmale.com
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
CS223 said:
You think we check mens checks LH and FSH when they come in for HRT ......no why would we check ?

So in other words it doesn't mean anything and if your in for HRT ....HCG isn't going to make more natural testosterone. And it is not a common test done on men, if you have a vasectomy you wouldn't have any levels and it's usually done for fertility and HRT for fertility ? </div></div>

What?!?!

<span style="font-weight: bold">WHY: Because if a patient presents with a low T level, there can be underlying causes. The most common is prolactinoma.</span> If prolactin and FSH are elevated above the normal range it is an indicator and an MRI of the pituitary is warranted. Treating the tumor can restore levels to normal without HRT.
<span style="font-weight: bold">prolactinoma the most common cause for low T...r u kidding me. 77 cases per 100,000 that includes women and children so if that is common to him...he has an altered sense of reality and needs to lay of the </span>

A vasectomy has NO effect on LH, FSH, prolactin or testosterone levels. All a vasectomy does is sever the vasa deferentia, the testicles and the Leydig cells produce testosterone just like they always did.

Most guys, especially younger ones would prefer that their testicles not atrophy as a result of HRT, if supplementing with HCG prevents that and keeps other hormone levels normal, I can't see why it wouldn't be an adjunct therapy to HRT.

Keep in mind the focus at least in my context is HRT, not body building, or restoring youth, just restoring & maintaining T levels in the normal range. </div></div>


prolactinoma the most common cause for low T...r u kidding me. 77 cases per 100,000 that includes women and children so if that is common to him...he has an altered sense of reality and needs to lay of the [/b]

<span style="font-weight: bold">He makes no sense...and FSH LH only effect sperm count they will have little to no effect on the serum T level.</span>

I only posted a few lines from her as the rest is pointless as far as finding info out from internet gurus be careful thats all Interresting reads on DO that was just quoted, misinformation is everywhere.

Find a Dr you trust and consult them. I for one feel 100% better from HRT with no side effects and maybe Im just lucky

Re: Dr Crisler congratulates himself on receiving an award from a scam organization!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scally MD
I hate to break it to you, but Crisler's TRT paper is a POS. I have commented on the multiple errors elsewhere. Also, you do not see this cited anywhere in the published literature (PubMed). Crisler is a giant in his own mind. This part of your post has him pegged exactly. He is an intellectual wimp. Crisler runs from the peer reviewed literature because he is so stupid. The facts will always defeat his BS. For example, 24-hour urine testing. DHEA backfilling in TRT, adrenal fatigue, and more. [The political angle is pathetic.]

I realize that this "paper" was never peer-reviewed and would not count as a publication in any academic setting. I can't speak to its accuracy. I am in no way defending him and this "make believe award."

I was just commenting on the fact that I was a "freakin mess" caused by low testosterone and the traditional medical establishment let me down. I read this "white paper" and although it might be error ridden it was more than I had before.

My endocrinologist would have never, ever tested my testosterone had I not yelled and screamed; I was a very sick man. He couldn't believe that a guy as big and strong as I was had low testosterone. I had anxiety so bad, was so tired, was so sleep deprived I honestly think I was slowly dying!!


Also interesting

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/01/dr_crisler_responds.php
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">but AAS are not for HRT.
</div></div>

Only because of the "S" word. Otherwise, were doctors to be honest, they would be preferred as those that have less estrogen conversion are in essence with less side-effect per therapeutic result measure. That wins in every other area of pharm for shear liability alone. This is only skating by the media labels by using "replacement", "therapy", or "bio-identicle" with results being measured the same way a deficiency is identified (serum T <= X). Using the S word would never allow the practice to first base.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
600mg of testosterone per week is dangerous on your liver
</div></div>

Cite needed, or please remove. Which analogue and by what delivery? Not test enanthate injections. Now that this is becoming more mainstream, as it should be, being integral to youthful characteristics, do not go throwing out scare statements. Irrespective of what is high or low in accepted therapeutic doses, you can't mix up the dangers of TNT vs smokeless propellants just because they both go boom.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

prolactinoma the most common cause for low T...r u kidding me. 77 cases per 100,000 that includes women and children so if that is common to him...he has an altered sense of reality and needs to lay of the [/b]

<span style="font-weight: bold">He makes no sense...and FSH LH only effect sperm count they will have little to no effect on the serum T level.</span></div></div>

Go back & read what I said, when the FSH and prolactin level is elevated, it's often an indicator of a prolactinoma which warrants further investigation. I never said that pituitary tumors were the main cause of low T. Though medical sources say possibly up to 20% of the population have pituitary tumors, the most of which are no cause for concern.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I only posted a few lines from her as the rest is pointless as far as finding info out from internet gurus be careful thats all Interresting reads on DO that was just quoted, misinformation is everywhere.

Find a Dr you trust and consult them. I for one feel 100% better from HRT with no side effects and maybe Im just lucky

Re: Dr Crisler congratulates himself on receiving an award from a scam organization!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Scally MD
I hate to break it to you, but Crisler's TRT paper is a POS. I have commented on the multiple errors elsewhere. Also, you do not see this cited anywhere in the published literature (PubMed). Crisler is a giant in his own mind. This part of your post has him pegged exactly. He is an intellectual wimp. Crisler runs from the peer reviewed literature because he is so stupid. The facts will always defeat his BS. For example, 24-hour urine testing. DHEA backfilling in TRT, adrenal fatigue, and more. [The political angle is pathetic.]

I realize that this "paper" was never peer-reviewed and would not count as a publication in any academic setting. I can't speak to its accuracy. I am in no way defending him and this "make believe award."

I was just commenting on the fact that I was a "freakin mess" caused by low testosterone and the traditional medical establishment let me down. I read this "white paper" and although it might be error ridden it was more than I had before.

My endocrinologist would have never, ever tested my testosterone had I not yelled and screamed; I was a very sick man. He couldn't believe that a guy as big and strong as I was had low testosterone. I had anxiety so bad, was so tired, was so sleep deprived I honestly think I was slowly dying!!


Also interesting

http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2010/01/dr_crisler_responds.php </div></div>

Very good, this is the point of having a discussion. As you will also note, I gave no credibility to "Dr". Crislers work, only that it's an interesting read. And there is often some tidbits of information even in less than credible sources that can help or at least encourage people to ask more questions and dispel myths. If you recall in my second post in this thread, I linked to an article from the International Journal of Clinical Practice. In addition, there are many more supporting articles on the NIH website on the subject, and various medications and patient responses to HRT.

If you and your source choose simply call someone ignorant rather than dispute the B/S circulating the web and offer a supported counter argument then you're not adding to the knowledge people are seeking. Generally speaking, I choose to read as much information about a subject that I can. There is quite often opposing views regardless of the topic. But when the dust settles, there is often a thin line of commonality between all the views on the topic. Consider taking less of a defensive tone and more of counter viewpoint.

Dr. Michael Scally's Medical License Revoked for Prescribing Steroids
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

Let me make one point, all of the various shit slinging aside; if anyone reading this thread has symptoms outlined below from the article linked in my first post, see your Doc. get a blood test. Too often MD's miss the signs of low T and treat the symptoms like depression, sudden weight gain, fatigue, irritability, constant joint pain etc.. Getting the test, at the very least rules out low T. The lack of ED is not an indicator of low T, your total T can be 100 and your sexual function be fine.

Androgen deficiency in ageing males (ADAM)
questionnaire:

1. Do you have a decrease in libido (sex drive)?
2. Do you have a lack of energy?
3. Do you have a decrease in strength and/or endurance?
4. Have you lost height?
5. Have you noticed a decreased enjoyment of life?
6. Are you sad and/or grumpy?
7. Are your erections less strong?
8. Have you noticed a recent deterioration in your ability to
play sports?
9. Are you falling asleep after dinner?
10. Has there been a recent deterioration in your work
performance?
If the answer is ‘yes’ to question 1 or 7, or at least 3 of the
other questions, low testosterone may be present.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

Our goal was not to argue with anyone she has her opinions as do others.

The statement was made that you should counter act testoserone with HCG.This is no way true according to her. She is not a fertility Dr and doesn't believe in labs that seem a waste.Like I said before go to someone you trust and ask them the benefits and risks.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

<span style="font-weight: bold">He makes no sense...and FSH LH only effect sperm count they will have little to no effect on the serum T level.</span></div></div>


FSH regulates the development, growth, pubertal maturation, and reproductive processes of the body.

LH stimulates Leydig cell production of testosterone.

Prolactin unusually high amounts are suspected to be responsible for impotence and loss of libido.

I'll let those who are interested also research HPTA aka HPGA Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Gonadal Axis. It's far to complex a medical term for me to understand, let alone even think about explaining.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me make one point, all of the various shit slinging aside; if anyone reading this thread has symptoms outlined below from the article linked in my first post, see your Doc. get a blood test. Too often MD's miss the signs of low T and treat the symptoms like depression, sudden weight gain, fatigue, irritability, constant joint pain etc.. Getting the test, at the very least rules out low T. The lack of ED is not an indicator of low T, your total T can be 100 and your sexual function be fine.

Androgen deficiency in ageing males (ADAM)
questionnaire:

1. Do you have a decrease in libido (sex drive)?
2. Do you have a lack of energy?
3. Do you have a decrease in strength and/or endurance?
4. Have you lost height?
5. Have you noticed a decreased enjoyment of life?
6. Are you sad and/or grumpy?
7. Are your erections less strong?
8. Have you noticed a recent deterioration in your ability to
play sports?
9. Are you falling asleep after dinner?
10. Has there been a recent deterioration in your work
performance?
If the answer is ‘yes’ to question 1 or 7, or at least 3 of the
other questions, low testosterone may be present. </div></div>

All good advice, but personally, I recommend people take a more pro active approach. I think T should be tested yearly in men after 35. I have my tests through my 20s, 30s, and now 40s, and watched it drop off as studies generally find it will, and that's with a knowledge of training, nutrition, etc others don't have. Personally, waiting for symptoms is reactive medicine, not pro active. People have suffered for years with sub par T, or thyroid, etc, before symptomology became overt enough for a test, and there's no reason for it. Personally (see linked article) I get, and recommend a full hormonal panel done yearly as pro active medicine that will save people years of suffering and potential health problems. We don't wait for people to have a CVD before we check lipids either, or a stroke before we check BP, yet low T (as well as other hormones...) are now well established to be a risk factor for a long list of issues easily avoided.

No, most docs dont like to run all those tests, and no, most insurance companies dont like paying for them, but that's something that can be worked with.

I think the way hormonal issues are approached, especially with men, are reactive vs proactive, and that's not acceptable to me personally.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our goal was not to argue with anyone she has her opinions as do others.

The statement was made that you should counter act testoserone with HCG.This is no way true according to her. She is not a fertility Dr and doesn't believe in labs that seem a waste.Like I said before go to someone you trust and ask them the benefits and risks.
</div></div>

No, my <span style="font-weight: bold">QUESTION</span> was should someone on HRT also ask their Doctor about HCG? Trying to determine whether or not HCG is adjunct to HRT. The point being if a doc. puts a 30 year old man on HRT and 6 months down the road he discovers his testicles shrinking, would it have been in his best interest to ask the doc initially about HCG in addition to the HRT? Or is testicle shrinkage relatively of little concern with the therapeutic levels of T we're talking about. Again, this HRT not body building, we're all aware of the potential dangers of steroid abuse.

ETA, it's not an argument or a challenge, it's seeking an opposing view, a second opinion if you will. An opposing view often brings up points that have been missed. I'm aware that Dr.s for obvious reasons are reluctant to give professional advice outside of their practice. But there are ways to convey knowledge without opening themselves to liability such as pointing to professional publications.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Will Brink</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
All good advice, but personally, I recommend people take a more pro active approach. I think T should be tested yearly in men after 35. ....

I think the way hormonal issues are approached, especially with men, are reactive vs proactive, and that's not acceptable to me personally. </div></div>

I couldn't possibly agree more. Frankly, had I not asked to have the test added to my annual blood panel, I'd still be suffering. My MD was just as shocked at the results as I was. At the VERY least, get tested once to establish a base line level. And absolutely, positively before starting any treatment for depression.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Our goal was not to argue with anyone she has her opinions as do others.

The statement was made that you should counter act testoserone with HCG.This is no way true according to her. She is not a fertility Dr and doesn't believe in labs that seem a waste.Like I said before go to someone you trust and ask them the benefits and risks.
</div></div>

No, my <span style="font-weight: bold">QUESTION</span> was should someone on HRT also ask their Doctor about HCG? Trying to determine whether or not HCG is adjunct to HRT. </div></div>

Kinda thought I had answered that, but VAST majority of docs only know HCG as a drug used for women for fertility issues and will look at you like you have two heads when you mention HCG for men to counter some of the effects of HRT. There's a few, a very few, who use HCG in that manner.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CS223</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
tuna921 said:
The point being if a doc. puts a 30 year old man on HRT and 6 months down the road he discovers his testicles shrinking, would it have been in his best interest to ask the doc initially about HCG in addition to the HRT? Or is testicle shrinkage relatively of little concern with the therapeutic levels of T we're talking about. Again, this HRT not body building, we're all aware of the potential dangers of steroid abuse. </div></div>

Testicular shrinkage, reduced sperm count, etc is a common effect of <span style="font-weight: bold">HRT </span>with some individual responses. Again, there are a few docs out there, more commonly of the "alternative" bent, who utilize HCG in men, even though the lit is easy to find as to why HCG may be useful for those men concerned with those issues.

As I said, most men get T, and that's about it, and having E2 tested, much less managed, countering effects of HRT on HPTA, etc <span style="font-weight: bold">not common</span>, but growing slowly.
 
Re: Got Testosterone?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tuna921</div><div class="ubbcode-body">600mg of testosterone per week is dangerous on your liver

</div></div>PLEASE find me ONE study to factually support this statement.