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Great EC interview on Prometheus
- Thread starter Sebrock
- Start date
Another good interview and brings to light something I have always questioned, the accuracy of electronic scales. There is no question a good beam scale with counterweight will be more accurate than electronic. Electronic scales seem to drift, leave a charge sit and watch the weight change. I personally do use a electronic scale for speed and ease of use. Question is how much accuracy is required ? Do you need to measure to .02 of a grain ? Of course everyone wants the most accurate, consistent powder charges and I believe this tool is the best but at it's cost is just priced out of reach for most reloaders. " winning in the wind" on youtube, another F class shooter made a video testing a RCBS electronic scale vs. his V3 very interesting results.
Yes saw the video. Erik Cortina did the same thing with a charge master and dandy trickler. Ultimately it’s your process and in some cases that process takes more time or more care. However, seems that the Prometheus is a very quick way to charge exactly the same weight without having to worry about the electronics.
You are incorrect regarding your belief that beam scales are more accurate than electronic ones. His system is $5000. Trust me, electronic scales in the $4000 range are plenty stable. What he has done that is very smart is fully enclosing the system thereby eliminating disturbances from airflow. It looks like a good system for what it does and going analogue makes sense for this design. However, your statement is built on assumptions
I suppose it depends on what your definition of better is. It would seem that if the Prometheus is in the right place (level, sturdy table, etc) and once you have identified the charge - it’s just set it and forget it - no calibration, nothing. You can charge the same over and over again wether today or tomorrow and not think twice about it. I think an autotrickler with the right protocol will give you great results but my guess is that over 300-500 cases, the Prometheus would probably be quicker and more consistent (through being less prone to error). I only have an autotrickler so I’m just surmising here. The degree to which the difference between the two matters, I suppose, depends on a lot of your other reloading variables since SD/ES doesn’t just come from powder charge consistency. So seems to me the selling point is not precision but a combination of repeatability and speed.
If I had my choice between an electronic scale and the Prometheus I would go with the Prometheus. But as things sit now I would buy two or three of the auto trickler set ups for what this guy wants for one Prometheus.
Honestly though if this guy pulled his head out of his ass the world would be a better place.
Honestly though if this guy pulled his head out of his ass the world would be a better place.
Given that it takes a year to get one and guys like Erik Cortina are willing to wait that long for a second, I would say very much so in the right circles. Clearly devices like the autotrickler have made it a much more affordable substitution for most though.
I shoot with guys in that circle that are unwilling to pay the price and unwilling to consider it. Just because EC made a video about the Prometheus doesn't make it relevant and neither does availability. The Prometheus has never been widely available.
I’m sure. I can afford one but I get great results with my autotrickler and not willing to pay that much either but it’s a niche tool and he seems to have plenty of takers even if it’s 12 a year or however many or little he sells - I just don’t think you can call it irrelevant.
New 1,000 Yard World Record Set With Berger Bullets
Congratulations to Charles Greer on setting TWO new world records for 1,000 yard benchrest shooting! Charles' record has now been officially recognized by the NBRSA after being thoroughly measured and scrutinized by officials. On February 13, 2021, during the Saguaro 1,000 yard benchrest match...
bergerbullets.com
1000-Yard World Record Shooter Charles Greer Talks With LoadDevelopment.com
What sequence do you follow when reloading fired brass?
After the first firing I clean the outer case necks with steel wool and brush out the inner neck. I lube the inner neck with dry lube and apply a bit of Imperial Sizing Wax to each case with my fingers as I run it through a custom Whidden full length non-bushing sizing die with an expander in a Forester Co-Ax press. After sizing I clean off the sizing wax and trim the case mouths down to a uniform length with an electric Trim It II machine that also chamfers the case mouths in the process. I clean the primer pockets and then sort the cases by weight. I arrange the cases in a loading block by weight and maintain that order for the life of the case so the cases I shoot for record are always exactly the same weight. I use a 21st Century hand primer to prime the cases and then charge them using a V3 Auto Trickler and FX120i scale. Bullets are seated using a custom Wilson hand die and an arbor press to a seating depth determined by measurement. Last step is to check a sampling of rounds for concentricity with a Sinclair Concentricity Gauge.
Bottom line is "skill".
The question comes up all the time. When it comes down to it, most people will say the Prometheus, Autotrickler or those high end scales and dispensers are fast, accurate too, but can you shoot the difference in a .02 charge? There are too many other variables that a loader has no control of to even tell.
This is true and it's true ONLY because of the clownish business behaviors involved.
If the guy was even a marginally better businessman every other reloading bench in America would have (or at least would have had) a Prometheus sitting on it. He had a 20 year head start against anything even remotely close but here we are still discussing the lack of availability and people are still paying prototype prices.
Like I said above, I personally would rather have a Prometheus but as it sits I will buy an auto trickler set up long before I even try to get a Prometheus.
I actually found it to be entirely unconvincing. Well, other than making the point that Prometheus was a very easy system to get powder into the case, which is not nothing. But otherwise it was a series of claims without backup, followed by a lot of "I know this is the reason people think XYZ, because I used to think XYZ." It's garbage reasoning. It does seem like a nice unit, innovative for the time, but obsolete and offering little other than the ability to go directly into the case. It doesn't appear to add any precision despite lofty claims.
EC loses to guys that don't use the Prometheus. His YouTube content is nice though.
Absolutely 'skill'. When compared to hand weighing charges though the difference between that and these various machines is time AND accuracy. Trying to load 1,000 rounds or whatever of precision ammo will show the value of either of the setups.
Right. I don’t think it’s an accuracy issue. It’s a speed and reliability combo thing. That’s why people love the Prometheus or Autotricklers. Personally I think Adam makes the best combination of price/reliability/accuracy and that’s why he can’t produce them fast enough.
Hahaha. Fair enough.
I wish someone would come up with a contraption that would let you charge from the autotrickler right to the case with the scale zeroing every time you put a new case in. Like a case holder and funnel that sits on the platen.
Someone did. Looks like a mousetrap lol. You can remove the bottom plate under scale and still use scale by weighing from under it. I will try to find video.
Omg that’s nuts. I was thinking more like something CNCd from Area419 or SAC but wow that’s pretty ingenious.
Yes, but this is a prototype. Have to start somewhere. A refined version would be cool.
Now that the V4 has a single drop, I was thinking of something that looks like a case gauge with a longer neck and funnel on top (so you load the case from the bottom). If you could have the scale program to auto zero before every drop - that would work.
You can just move the whole unit down to where the trickler part is now. Actually simpler
Just say flattering things and a bible verse, maybe he'll swoop in and give you one for free.
Worth pointing out some pretty important points from the video:
1: other than not knowing what’s going on behind the scenes of an electronic scale, Brand states many, many times that he sells “time.” As in, it’s extremely fast and less handling and such involved than using a cup and funnel.
He doesn’t attempt to oversell the effectiveness of beam vs electronic scales.
He even goes so far to say if the AutoTrickler and Fx120 were available at the time, he would have either never invented the Prometheus or at least would have taken much longer.
2: He promotes the fx120 as a “good” scale and never diminishes its ability.
3: he freely admits that his business model isn’t the most efficient or best at turning the most profit. He doesn’t want to take a chance as far as upsizing and such. He’s not making any claims that it’s so popular he can’t hire enough people or anything such as that.
Point being, he was extremely upfront about everything. All the rest of the chatter online is what other people want to make of it themselves.
Take him at his world. It’s a great machine that will save high volume loaders a ton of time in the long run.
1: other than not knowing what’s going on behind the scenes of an electronic scale, Brand states many, many times that he sells “time.” As in, it’s extremely fast and less handling and such involved than using a cup and funnel.
He doesn’t attempt to oversell the effectiveness of beam vs electronic scales.
He even goes so far to say if the AutoTrickler and Fx120 were available at the time, he would have either never invented the Prometheus or at least would have taken much longer.
2: He promotes the fx120 as a “good” scale and never diminishes its ability.
3: he freely admits that his business model isn’t the most efficient or best at turning the most profit. He doesn’t want to take a chance as far as upsizing and such. He’s not making any claims that it’s so popular he can’t hire enough people or anything such as that.
Point being, he was extremely upfront about everything. All the rest of the chatter online is what other people want to make of it themselves.
Take him at his world. It’s a great machine that will save high volume loaders a ton of time in the long run.
The ones in lower price ranges, yes.
But generally speaking, electronic vs beam…..both have pros and cons.
A beam is not significantly better than electronic all things being equal.
You won’t find pharmaceutical companies weighing very much at all on beam scales.
Video on September 18. It’s coming.
Private group. Some of us don't do commie book either. Will be nice to see another system. Liking my v4 so far.
The supertrickler seems very cool - especially when reading through the description. But doesn’t it dispense in a cup or has that changed?
Yup same here on commie book. Reading through the super trickler thread and description, seems like it will be good competition to the V4. Hoping mine ships in the next few weeks. I’m March 18th one slot after the early Jan one.
I would say everything you said is true.
I would also add, that had he had a more efficient business model from way back when, the Auto Trickler also might not have been invented or at least would have been much slower to come to market.
The Prometheus was invented in the mid 1990s. The Auto Trickler was invented in 2016. In between those two times the Prometheus had zero competitors in that space.
The Prometheus is impressive and holds it's own despite being almost 30 years old. That said the only reason why it's still not a viable option is because the owner of the company refuses to allow it to be.
I don't think powder dispensing has been the primary time constraint for high volume reloaders in a very long time. The primary time constraint with the Prometheus is separating the powder charging operation and seating operation. The cup and funnel step (with a A419 or Lyman funnel) in a single stage operation is only four seconds or 67 minutes per 1K rounds. RCBS CM's can be made accurate and if you stack three or four of them you can match the speed of the Prometheus while saving more than $4,000.
For the cost of a Prometheus you can do an entire precision oriented Dillon 650/750, MBF, dies, and throwers (with money left over) that will produce the same quality ammo and actually save time, not just an hour per thousand rounds. Brand may have been selling time in the 90's but he's just soaking his customers today.
I run 3 CM and can barely keep up with the charging and seating at the same time. I timed it last week and it was around 12 minutes to 50 rounds, throwing the charge to seating the bullets.
Messing with a cup and funnel doing hundreds or thousands of rounds per week gets old.
It’s not just about time, it’s the handling involved. Stacking three CM still requires handling of a cup and sitting it back down.
Currently, even on progressives, the only two options are a Prometheus setup above the funnel, or utilizing the hook on the bottom of the Fx120.
$4k for never grabbing a cup and such for a million rounds is easily money well spent. Is it overpriced? Quite possibly. But I’m not talking about the loader who does 300 rounds a month….or possibly even a week.
If it weren’t for groups like this still ON commiebook I wouldn’t either but there’s too many groups with too much information for me to not look at it every once a month or so.
It does but they are trying to figure out where you line up a 100 or so rnds to charge with powder. Basically you get you brass lined up, hit a button and it’ll charge how ever many rnds you have without you touching anything. Pretty innovative stuff in the future.
How many Prometheus users do you know loading the way you are? Your point is valid but your use case is exceptionally rare.
What is this hook on the bottom of the Fx120 option of which you speak?
Some folks just get a high off owning the most exorbitantly expensive option on the market.
I can relate- I'm like that with my sour cream.
Let's just give them space to dig it and reap the bounty of the harbor freight version.
I can relate- I'm like that with my sour cream.
Let's just give them space to dig it and reap the bounty of the harbor freight version.
The FX 120 has a way too hook something to the bottom and weigh it. There’s an F Class John video on this thread posted by @Gwain showing this. You learn something new every day.
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