Gun Control Rebuttals

[Bro Mo]

Lately there are so many statistics being thrown around by both sides of this debate that I wanted to start a thread to collect and discuss the statistics about guns and violence so we can strengthen our 1A to retain our 2A.

One of the most common statistics and arguments used is that Australia has low gun violence and they have high gun control. It is an accurate statement and this is a common graphic that depicts the argument.


However, the aspect of the argument that I rarely hear about is that Australia started with much lower gun violence and it has not decreased at a faster rate after their control measures than before. In the graphic below, the decline in violence rates is about the same between the US and Australia before and after their ban was in place.


There is a difference between experimental statistics and observational statistics. All gun violence statistics are observational and cannot be credited with causation due to correlation. In this example, the declining violence rate is likely due much more to socio-economic factors than anything else. It's important to look at both sides of the argument in order to better understand and win the debate that seems so obvious to us and those like us. Sometimes it feels so common sense that we fail to find the data that accurately counters the bad arguments we come across.

I would love to see more examples of an anti argument along with why it's flawed and the more elaborate version of the statistics to better infer an accurate conclusion.

 

[Alex126]

This line of debate has failed since 1934. The left knows they're wrong, they just don't give a fuck.

We need to adopt their underhanded tactics if we have any chance at stemming the tide without bloodshed.

 

[2ndamendfan]

I am not sure about Australia but. The UK has gun ban AND knife bans (over 3 inches) and London's murder rate surpassed NYC's for the first time in over 100 years in February. In the USA only about 9% of burglaries involved the owner being at home (home invasion). In the UK it is just over 40% and this is because the criminals know there is no defense. Especially when the UK pulls this bullshit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/cri...n-at-house-in-south-east-london-a3805251.html

The problem is that anti-gunners are separating gun crime from violent crime. When they are in fact connected. The fact is that remove guns and violence over all goes up.

Here is the deal. Would you allow your wife to be raped to save the guy 10 blocks away from being shot.

I hope the answer is fuck no.

PS. Almost forgot rape in the UK is up 20% over 2016 which was a record year itself. And the scottland yard has no idea why (which is fucked up)

 

[2ndamendfan]

You need to remind those that would give total control to the government that the SCOTUS has ruled at least half a dozen times that the government or their agents (LEO/firefighters/emt) are not responsible for any one's individual safety nor property.

The people they expect to protect them have NO legal obligation to do so.

 

[2ndamendfan]

Oh you got me going.

So crime is at all time lows and the number of guns in America is at all time highs. Chicago is the murder capitol but has the strictest gun laws. The government has failed over the lasts 50 years to win the war on drugs.

The Florida shooter had been in contact with LEO 46 times and was not stopped. These are the people that some would put in charge of their personal safety. Due to SCOTUS rulings LEO had no actual obligation to stop the Florida shooter.

 

[DetroitRearView]

The 2A clarified with specificity the inherent freedoms already enumerated within the Constitution of the United States of America.

I am totally against comparing our violence, weapons, scissors, knives, or the length of baseball bats with any other Nation on this earth.

We have a Constitution that is unlike any other and we better be ready to defend it just like those who died to give it to us.

Yes, they gave it to us.

Now we be better be ready to pass it on.

 

[CrazyHorse_mk14]

Look at how gun control worked for the Natives

 

[ahhshoot]

It is all well and good, but if you’ve noticed, the antis posters and picket signs aren’t exactly littered with facts and data. They use slogans and phrases, and repetition to instill associations. Their target audience does not come to conclusions via facts or data. So, it’s like fighting a grease fire with a ball peen hammer.

 

[Rthur]

See below:
This map displays concentrations of murders by county.

This map show concentrations of Blue voting counties.

After minor study a correlation can be made.

R

 

[Alex126]

It is all well and good, but if you’ve noticed, the antis posters and picket signs aren’t exactly littered with facts and data. They use slogans and phrases, and repetition to instill associations. Their target audience does not come to conclusions via facts or data. So, it’s like fighting a grease fire with a ball peen hammer.

My point exactly.

 

[Jethro3898]

No bias; justfacts.
Glean from them what you will.

 

[Jefe's Dope]

You can't force feed them facts. They don't care. They've made up their mind.

What I suggest is to plant seeds. let those seeds germinate in their brains and allow them to find out on their own. Just a nudge here and a glint there. Get their curiosity going. Once they "discover" the facts, their eyes will open and the flood gates will flow with their own found knowledge and a need to find out what else they didn't know.

 

[Mwalex]

See below:
This map displays concentrations of murders by county.
View attachment 6891440
This map show concentrations of Blue voting counties.
View attachment 6891442

After minor study a correlation can be made.

R

I don't that that surprises anyone on this board but it is good to see.

 

[Mwalex]

No bias; justfacts.
Glean from them what you will.

View attachment 6891504

What happened to the abortion numbers for 2015-2017? They just gave up counting or run out of counters?

Also, on the very first graph (homicide rates in different countries) the number for the US is greatly inflated by suicide.

 

[...]

Honestly it doesn’t matter.....

We could prove 100% without a doubt that gun control doesn’t work..... and you would still have the liberals screaching autisticlly that we need to ban guns..

Liberalism is a mental disease.... you can’t beat a mental disorder with facts.

Facts don’t matter to these mongoloids.... just “feelings”

 

[Nik H]

What everyone needs to comprehend is their strategy.

I hear many try Pro 2A activists trying to argue with the the leftists that imposing gun control or an AWB won't curb crime. They do so by using data similar to the above and also by reminding them about the what to do with the weapons already in circulation. The left argues the data. What you never hear the left say is anything about the latter. Ever wonder about that?

It is clear to me that the ban is the first step of the plan. It will be followed by confiscation tactics without due process. Due process cannot be part of the plan as it would cost tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars. Confiscation will be discussed a few years after state bans or a national ban is adopted. It will be easy to argue as the data will show crime increasing after such a ban. The reason of guns remaining in circulation would be easy to sell to the public.

The pro 2A strategy needs to change. Trying to change the minds of the leftists will not happen. Education of the large percentage of the country that is undecided or not polarized to one side or another is the way forward. Teach them the facts and help them become initiated into the shooting sports. Numbers are our friend. It is really the only peaceful solution that I can think of at this time. The alternative is really unthinkable and not likely. Everyone talks tough but VERY few would pull the trigger on LEO or if they had to.

 

[Rthur]

A fight for power.....Democrat and republican.
We are just caught in the middle.

R and D are just a distraction from the truth.
They are both in power and will do whatever it takes to maintain it.
Power they use to accumulate wealth.

R

 

[Nik H]

There’s no power without soldiers, might or military. R’s wants us to keep our guns because we will fight for them while D’s want to take away our guns because of fear of war, makes them feel more powerful and it’s disarming soldier of the R’s. They don’t really care about us.

Neither group gives a shit about 2A. They are all complicit in this attack.

 

[Jethro3898]

What happened to the abortion numbers for 2015-2017? They just gave up counting or run out of counters?.

When I compiled that data, the CDC (which is where I got the abortion data from), didn’t have 2015 or 2016 data posted yet....at least that I could find.
I tried to get all of that data from the most reputable sources that I could so that (hopefully) it would be accurate. It is very hard to find good hard data on any “hot button” topics from the internet.

I was going to do a graphic one time on illegal immigration and got so frustrated with the disparity between information posted from different websites (I’m sure each trying to drive their own point), that I gave up. I figured with this little exercise that the FBI and the CDC would be good data, or at least the data would be good enough that people couldn’t blame me for manipulating the numbers, because I am a “gun guy”.

The FBI’s website actually has some amazing data broken down into virtually any manner you could ever want. If you want to know how many 25-30 year old brunette women murdered 45 year old men with blue eyes, I’d bet you could find it on there. The amount of data is amazing and can be overwhelming.

 

[Rthur]

There’s no power without soldiers, might or military. R’s wants us to keep our guns because we will fight for them while D’s want to take away our guns because of fear of war, makes them feel more powerful and it’s disarming soldier of the R’s. They don’t really care about us.

Money is what makes soldiers, might and military.
Guess who controls it.

R

 

[Tucker301]

Liberals love their data and statistics until....

 

[...]

Liberals love their data and statistics until....

i can hear them now......like the sound of 1000 nails on a chalk board...

 

[Jethro3898]

What everyone needs to comprehend is their strategy.

...... Teach them the facts and help them become initiated into the shooting sports. Numbers are our friend. .....

^^^^
This is what I have found to be more helpful than anything. If you keep firearms simply as a scholastic debate, people won’t change their mind, very similar to religion. Once people actually experience shooting, their eyes are opened and they realize their fears and concerns were unfounded.

I took two Canadian gentlemen I do business with to my range last year. Both are good guys (not closed-minded) but are not familiar with firearms. One of the two had never shot a rifle.

On the way to the range, one of the guys commented that he wasn’t against “normal” guns, but he thought Americans were obsessed with firearms. I told him I wanted to ask him after our trip what he thought. First was a serious safety briefing. I told them to forget everything they had ever seen on TV or in the movies. I showed the, both proper etiquette and safety, and both eye and ear protection. I had those guys shooting a Tavor, two of my AIs (one was suppressed) and both my carry pistol and my G34. I even had them hitting steel at 840 yards. We talked about the purpose and use of each weapon. I taught them about how and why I practice and all of the stuff that goes into shooting long range. I explained to them why I loved firearms. They had a blast. They wanted me to take pictures and videos of them for their Facebook pages. I took them to dinner afterwards and they talked about how much fun they had. They said they were going to get all their paperwork in order to get their own firearms (don’t know what kind of rules/laws they have up there). I asked them if they understood my “obsession” with firearms and they entusiastically said yes. One of the two guys said he always thought it was a macho/cowboy thing and never knew how much skill went into it. They left seeing it as a sport and a passion, not simply an obsession. They learned that firearms are used for things other than hunting.

Similar thing with my mother years ago. She never onbjected to firearms, but saw them as silly or pointless. I took her shooting one time and then this past Christmas she asked for a pistol. My dad and I almost fainted. It was like we were in the twilight zone. Of course, we gladly bought her a pistol and a case of ammo.

Take people shooting, especially those who may not be on our side of the fence. Pay for everything. Teach them to be safe. You’ll be amazed how their opinions on firearms change.

 

[Bro Mo]

This statistic is homicides per 1000 guns and has pretty much every developed country with very low homicide rates. Again indicating the rate is most correlated to economic development than any other factor.


I have not ever seen any good data regarding the geo-political and tribal fault lines within the US. Most conflict throughout the world occurs on these fault lines and the US being the "melting pot" it's prized for inherently has more of these fault lines than anywhere in the world.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I guess you folks think that talking any line of logic to a zealot is going to accomplish anything beyond causing their mouths to foam a bit more.

If anything along those lines actually worked, I'd probably still live in Upstate New York. Aside from the Winters (and the wack jobs), it's actually a pretty nice place to live.

Save your breath.

 

[Veer_G]

Fuck rebuttals.

 

[Strykervet]

I imagine trying to talk sense to some of these fuckers isn't much different than trying to use logic to disarm radical islam. You can't use logic on someone who isn't primed for it and who regularly participates in emotional arguments.

 

[Maggot]

This seems logically the best answer when someone brings up gun control.

 

[Unknown]

It is my contention that anti-gun people are not interested in debating facts, because they know that they will loose such a debate. It is easier for them to put forward BS numbers and contentions. I find it investing that none of the anti-gun people have asked for, or attended a pro-con tightly controlled debate over the issue.