• Frank's Lesson's Contest

    We want to see your skills! Post a video between now and November 1st showing what you've learned from Frank's lessons and 3 people will be selected to win a free shirt. Good luck everyone!

    Create a channel Learn more
  • Having trouble using the site?

    Contact support

Sidearms & Scatterguns Gun shop score, I think…

RFutch

Yoohoo. I'll make you famous.
Full Member
Minuteman
Supporter
  • Sep 28, 2010
    1,897
    1,932
    43
    Georgia
    This little feller followed me home today and I’m almost sure this Ruger has genuine ivory grips. I was wondering if any of you know more than I do and could confirm.

    I have a Colt with genuine elephant ivory and they have some of the same characteristics but I’m not sure to be honest.

    IMG_7376.jpeg

    IMG_7378.jpeg

    IMG_7379.jpeg


    IMG_7383.jpeg


    Colt grip on bottom
    IMG_7386.jpeg
    IMG_7391.jpeg
    IMG_7392.jpeg
     
    A couple of collectors had told me to take a pin or scribe and lightly scratch the INSIDE of the grip panel and compare it to the known sample.

    Either way
    1. A very sharp looking Ruger
    2. You got a screaming deal, I’ve seen real ivory grips cost that much!
     
    A couple of collectors had told me to take a pin or scribe and lightly scratch the INSIDE of the grip panel and compare it to the known sample.

    Either way
    1. A very sharp looking Ruger
    2. You got a screaming deal, I’ve seen real ivory grips cost that much!
    I’ll try that thanks.

    I paid $400 for the grips on the Colt around 2005, and at that time that was a good deal.

    I’ve been in this shop a 100 times and there’s never really anything special. I learned today though to always look in the case lol.
     
    The herringbone weave pattern on the end grain is a give away that it is elephant or mastodon.
    Walrus doesn't (and as far as I know, no other sources) have that distinctive pattern.

    That being said, if it isn't "fossilized" or properly documented, its probably considered illegal.

    I've heard of knife makers getting burned at shows when an overzealous agent seized items or made a fuss about it.
    I've also seen some great deals on ivory because the seller was worried about getting in trouble.

    I only use fossilized walrus and mastodon to avoid potential issues.
     
    What do you mean by fossilized?
    Ivory is legal if it is pre 1972.
    Most ivory from around our lifetimes will appear relatively white and is prone to some warping and cracking as it ages.
    Fresh or "green" ivory is especially prone to this.
    Without documentation, how do you prove that it is pre '72?

    Ancient ivory is probably a more accurate term than "fossilized" as it isn't a fossil in the sense that we think about chipping fossils out of rock.
    It will often look almost indistinguishable from recent ivory when you grind into it, but the outside will show signs of mineralization.
    It often picks up some varying colors from the ground that permeate into it. And...many dealers will stain it and or fill in the voids with colored resin and try to claim that it picked up lots of rare beautiful colors naturally and is worth a huge premium.

    The mastadon tusks are usually somewhat de-laminated in a circular pattern and very obviously ancient. (Its hard to get big flat pieces to work with) Not much risk of anyone claiming that it was illegally taken! Most are naturally brownish in color and would be mistaken for driftwood as the outer portions are a rough gray weathered bark appearance. You typically have to fill in a large number of cracks and voids.

    Walrus is common and is very solid, rarely showing any de-laminations although small cracks aren't uncommon. I've made several knives and pendants with it, but I take pictures as I cut it up to show that it came from an ancient tusk. The appearance of some if it will certainly blur the line between modern and ancient.

    Elephant poses the biggest challenge.
    Most of it is modern enough that it's obviously not ancient, but still apears old and probably legal. (your grips for example)
    If it isnt "white" in color there is a good chance that is is old enough to be legal, but the burden of proof will always be the "elephant in the room" lol.
     
    Unfortunately it is. Many of my grips came with documents stating they were pre-ban, but I doubt it would stand up in court. Many Blue states just banned all ivory trading except Mammoth ( some I believe even banned that (Oregon?)).
     
    How do the feds prove that it isn't?

    Since when is the burden of proof on the citizen?
    We are getting a bit off topic from the original posters great find, but yes, it can be tested.
    Carbon-14 dating will (allegedly) provide a reliable age +/- 1 year.

    The burden shouldn't be on the citizen. (in my opinion)
    However, what do I do if US Fish & Wildlife Agents look at white ivory on my table and say "this is not pre-ban ivory and we are going to confiscate it and or charge you"?
    Not sure what would happen, but I suspect that I would need to have documentation and or wait for a test to exonerate me. (At which point a chunk of my beautiful knife handle is probably missing)
    I see it like a fraudulent lawsuit. It might be a baseless claim but I still have to defend against it.

    Laws vary within the country and selling in vs out of state creates different issues as well.
    I believe NY (or maybe it was just NYC?) outlaws all ivory items, including mammoth!
    I guess if we can't prove that it was a winter kill or harvested during caveman's mammoth season, it might have been poached. :rolleyes:

    The USFW Service has a nice ivory related page that will answer many questions and or convince you that you are probably in violation of something!

    OP-enjoy the beautiful grips and just proceed with some caution if you decide to sell them!
     
    Heat a pin and burn the inside of the grip...if it smells like bone...the smell you get when a dentist drills a cavity..., it's ivory. If it smells like plastic, it's plastic.
     
    We are getting a bit off topic from the original posters great find, but yes, it can be tested.
    Carbon-14 dating will (allegedly) provide a reliable age +/- 1 year.

    The burden shouldn't be on the citizen. (in my opinion)
    However, what do I do if US Fish & Wildlife Agents look at white ivory on my table and say "this is not pre-ban ivory and we are going to confiscate it and or charge you"?
    Not sure what would happen, but I suspect that I would need to have documentation and or wait for a test to exonerate me. (At which point a chunk of my beautiful knife handle is probably missing)
    I see it like a fraudulent lawsuit. It might be a baseless claim but I still have to defend against it.

    Laws vary within the country and selling in vs out of state creates different issues as well.
    I believe NY (or maybe it was just NYC?) outlaws all ivory items, including mammoth!
    I guess if we can't prove that it was a winter kill or harvested during caveman's mammoth season, it might have been poached. :rolleyes:

    The USFW Service has a nice ivory related page that will answer many questions and or convince you that you are probably in violation of something!

    OP-enjoy the beautiful grips and just proceed with some caution if you decide to sell them!
    Totally agree, I have 7 or 8ish 1911s in ivory socks as well as a number of pocket knives ( all bought long before the ban). And I enjoy them and often carry them ( so if I shoot someone with an ivory clad pistol and the cops confiscate it, do I also get charged transferring ivory?🫨)
     
    Ivory is legal if it is pre 1972.
    Most ivory from around our lifetimes will appear relatively white and is prone to some warping and cracking as it ages.
    Fresh or "green" ivory is especially prone to this.
    Without documentation, how do you prove that it is pre '72?

    Ancient ivory is probably a more accurate term than "fossilized" as it isn't a fossil in the sense that we think about chipping fossils out of rock.
    It will often look almost indistinguishable from recent ivory when you grind into it, but the outside will show signs of mineralization.
    It often picks up some varying colors from the ground that permeate into it. And...many dealers will stain it and or fill in the voids with colored resin and try to claim that it picked up lots of rare beautiful colors naturally and is worth a huge premium.

    The mastadon tusks are usually somewhat de-laminated in a circular pattern and very obviously ancient. (Its hard to get big flat pieces to work with) Not much risk of anyone claiming that it was illegally taken! Most are naturally brownish in color and would be mistaken for driftwood as the outer portions are a rough gray weathered bark appearance. You typically have to fill in a large number of cracks and voids.

    Walrus is common and is very solid, rarely showing any de-laminations although small cracks aren't uncommon. I've made several knives and pendants with it, but I take pictures as I cut it up to show that it came from an ancient tusk. The appearance of some if it will certainly blur the line between modern and ancient.

    Elephant poses the biggest challenge.
    Most of it is modern enough that it's obviously not ancient, but still apears old and probably legal. (your grips for example)
    If it isnt "white" in color there is a good chance that is is old enough to be legal, but the burden of proof will always be the "elephant in the room" lol.
    Don’t know where you got 1972. My research show much later dates.
     
    Don’t know where you got 1972. My research show much later dates.
    The Marine Mammal Act was '72 impacting Walrus, whale, Polar bear, etc.
    Elephant appears to range all over the place.
    The dates seem dependent on personal vs commercial use, intra vs interstate, import vs export, etc.
    Hence the reason no one seems to know whats legal even in states that don't outlaw it!

    Here is an excerpt from USFWS regarding Antique exemptions-

    The sale of African elephant ivory items across state lines (interstate commerce) is prohibited, except
    for items that qualify as ESA antiques and certain manufactured or handcrafted items that contain a
    small (de minimis) amount of ivory and meet specific criteria.
    Interstate commerce is always prohibited for the following:
    sport-hunted trophies
    items imported under the exception for a household move or inheritance
    items imported as law enforcement or scientific specimens
    To qualify for the ESA antiques exemption, an item must meet all of the following criteria [seller/importer/exporter
    must demonstrate]:
    A: It is 100 years or older.
    B: It is composed in whole or in part of an ESA-listed species;
    C: It has not been repaired or modified with any such species after December 27, 1973; and
    D: It is being or was imported through an endangered species “antique port.”
    Under Director’s Order No. 210, as a matter of enforcement discretion, items imported prior to September 22,
    1982, and items created in the United States and never imported must comply with elements A, B, and C
    above, but not element D.