Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

[Snakum]

As a lowly mech grunt in the late 80s I was given a chance to go thru the post level sniper program at Hood with the ACR guys. I distinctly remember the instructors talking about the "new sniper school" at Benning opening up the next year (1987), and I have found references online to the sniper school opening it's doors in the late 80s.

So how could an otherwise straight-up guy claim to have been to the "AMU Sniper School" in 1980. He's a nice guy and generally known as honest, but the dates don't add up to what I remember.

Anyone know for sure when the formal B4 school launched? Was there some other program at the MU he could have gone thru in 1980?

 

[sinister]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

The Army Marksmanship Unit and numbered-Army and regional division/ post Marksmanship Training Units conducted service rifle, service pistol, and sniper courses. I attended the Benning AMU Sniper Course in November 1982. I believe 2nd and 7th Divisions ran their courses under Division Schools or the NCO Academy.

AMU and MTU sniper courses taught use and maintenance of the M21. Divisions ran their own schools since the weapon was MTOE standard-issue but besides the AMU and MTUs there was no place to send unqualified troops.

Benning's School wasn't established until 1987. I do not know when the Army established the B4 Additional Skill Identifier.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

OK, was just curious. He knew about as much as I did about the M21 (coming from a mech unit I hated running with that heavy bitch) and we talked about the old ART I scopes. Said he was sniper with one of the inf battalions in 101st.

Living near Bragg I hear so much BS at the station and at the range it puts a bug up my ass sometimes. Guys who should be proud of serving in whatever capacity can make up some crazy stories, not realizing they are talking to fellow vets who know it's BS.

We had one guy who first said he was arty at Fort Sill, then said he went to sniper school and was selected to do work for "the agency" and he can't discuss it and it's not on his 214. Then he went to Iraq "to do work for the agency" and we found out he was just a Paramedic at a fire station in the green zone. I hear this stuff all the time.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

Oh, and for the record, I was never more than just a low speed high drag 11H in a mech unit who got 30 days of mostly fieldcraft and scouting with the 19Ds as a consolation prize for putting in ten or twenty 4187s every week for everything from Army Dive School to SFAS. My CO said if one more request for jump school came across his desk with my name on it I would wish I'd "joined the Marines".

And I am proud to have served as a lowly mech grunt.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

The AMU Sniper program continued until the late 80s until the Infantry School Started their current program.

It was pretty much of a continuation of their program in SE Asia where they weren't so much concerned with producing snipers as they were with producing sniper instructors, wanting individuals to go back to their home unit/state/department and start and provide training for their sniper program.


A while back I had questions about the history of the AMU Sniper School.

This is part of the answer I got from the XO USAMU:

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Mr. Stuart;
I'll take a whack at answering your questions. I'm currently the XO
of the USAMU and have been assigned here for some time. I too went
through the USAMU Counter Sniper school in the early 70's. The course
was taught by members of the USAMU, primarily the Service Rifle Team.
Many/most of that team had deployed to Viet Nam and had served as
snipers. USAMU's responsibility to deliver that course ended in the
late 80's. With the Viet Nam war, a thing of the past, the Army was
downsizing. With that the USAMU lost many TDA slots that had gone
towards the cadre of our course. The Sniper program is now taught in
total by the 197th Infantry Brigade, located at Ft. Bennning. We did
have several USMC personnel attend the course as well as individuals
from most branches of the service. I'm guessing some of our instruction
influenced their services POI's but...</div></div>

It was a different school then what you have today, the AMU wasn't big on the harassment you get in a lot of the army schools, it was more laid back. The Col's Daughter use to bring us home made donuts in the morning. And after the days class, we let our hair down.

 

[sinister]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

I believe Bragg's XVIIIth Airborne Corps MTU closed around 85-86 -- a lot of their equipment went to the Special Forces' SOTIC Committee as they were just getting established in 85.

The Marines have kept up with Division and Marine Corps Matches while the Army has pretty much abandoned all internal organized competitive marksmanship activity.

Benning and Camp Robinson put out a fine product. I concur with Kraig that if the schools took away some of the Mickey Mouse bullshit and concentrated on shooting and hard skills development their output would be higher and perhaps better. SOTIC is just as long as the basic infantry sniper course but covers a whole lot more topics and equipment.

Seems all military schools have cadre who want successive courses to be tougher. Many get time added to their POIs, but never seem to increase output significantly (not just sniper school but all kinds of different skills).

It's a shame considering how hard it is to get a troop sent to Benning to start with.

 

[Snakum]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

Thanks for the info, Kraig. Pretty kool stuff.

I agree on the current selection process, as well. I work with soldiers in my new job and I hear echoed the same kind of things I've heard from a couple of friends here on SH. It's like pulling teeth to get someone a B4 slot now, and they seem to be looking for PT studs over brains or proven shooting ability. One member here told me at the range his unit burned a slot when they sent a rock head with a 300 PT score who forgot to take his orders with him to Benning. This same guy, a damn good soldier and shooter and with a four year year degree, couldn't even reenlist for a sniper school slot.

The Marines have always seemed to be way smarter than Big Army when it comes to marksmanship in general and associated programs/schools. Shame.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

The army is getting wacko on their push for muscle bound meat heads for everything.

A good example is when my wife transfered to a training unit for the state (SD) OCS. She was a clerk, not an instructor, though she had to go to their "instructor's course". So she gets to the school and dern near flunks out, not because she didn't know her job, but because she couldn't (about 40) keep up with the young 11B types.

She was a clerk for fuck sake, and a damn good one (she was my clerk when we met, but that was 15 years before we got married so it wasn't one of those).

Not like she was going to be leading a bunch of future 2nd LTs.

I always figured if the army spent 1/3 of the time they spend on PT on marksmanship, they would be better soldiers.

 

[QuietShootr]

Re: Guy claiming "Sniper school" at Benning in 1980?

That would show up a glaring deficiency in the system: It's easier (not to mention a lot cheaper) to run a gym rat around a track once a day than it would be to send him to the range. Plus, it's easier to train somebody to run faster than it is to bring them to a high level of proficiency with their weapon. You'd find a lot of 100-pushups-per-minute wonders like the guy referenced above who suddenly wouldn't be nearly as promotable as they are now.

What'd be neat (and probably a hell of a lot more productive) would be if they'd weight weapons proficiency with the same ball-busting bullshit you get over PT scores.