Long story short... I am new to reloading and I have a decent load worked up for my rifle. However, to get that load it took what I feel was an excessive amount of rounds fired and trips to the local range. I would like to learn how to maximize and become more efficient in load development skills. I just don't want to waste powder, projectiles, primers, and brass life. I hope I can save time and money so I can upgrade my reloading equipment, long-range shooting equipment, and get more time on the rifle. Any help is very much appreciated!
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Hand Loading/Load Development Questions, any help is appreciated!
- Thread starter Dakom
- Start date
Have you read how to do an OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) test" ?
OCW instructions - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System
Dan Newberry OCW or Optimal Charge Weight Load Development method or system for handloading, reloading, bullets, brass, powder, primers, accurate handloads.
optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com
Besides following a method like OCW and ladder resting, I think the other thing is just experience.
I should have added that in order to get a good read on these types of tests you've got to be working with some pretty consistent loads. For example, single digit SD's and ES's in the low 20's or better. You're chrono will tell you how well you're loading, it really doesn't tell you anything more for load development.
For finding what shoot's best in my new rifle: (my own personal system, use or critique as you see fit)
1. I choose a starting charge, from the reloading manual, for the cartridge i'm shooting, the powder I'm using and the bullet weight I choose.
2. I start at the manual's listed lowest charge weight, and work up to the max load in 0.5 grain increments. (I normally wont go over maximum listed charge for listed powder charge and bullet weight)
3. I load 5 rounds at each powder charge weight. Some people load 3 rounds, but to quantify the data on the group size, I shoot 5 rounds with an overall length that's listed in the manual for the cartridge and bullet I'm using.
3. After seeing which powder charge groups the most precise on paper, I then go into optimal seating depth adjustments by using Berger's guidelines here: Bullet seating depth article I use this method for any bullet type, not just Berger VLD's. The only thing I do differently than the article is; start shooting, with my optimal charge of powder, the furthest "jump" bullet depth first, then work my way closer to the lands/rifling. I don't start shooting jammed bullets first. I shoot them last to be observant of increasing chamber pressures based on how the primer appears when the cartridge is ejected.
I can do all that in about 50-60 rounds.
Then, after all that....If you REALLY want to get into the thick of it for narrower muzzle velocity variations, you do brass prep. Which for me, is: stainless steel media cleaning/tumbling, internal flash hole deburring, trim to length(when needed) and anneal the cases before sizing. You can't do much more than that, besides weighing each piece of brass, weighing each bullet and separating them into weight variance groups and blah blah blah. Weighing brass and bullets and putting them into "weight categories" is overkill and unnecessary, to me. There's only so much you can do to fight your muzzle velocity variation. Brass type(Lapua vs: Hornady vs. Federal etc), brass prep, precision of powder charge weight and seating depth is about as precise as you should be(if you want too) Just keep a log book for each rifle and optimal powder charge and bullet seating depth length to check back on if need be.
1. I choose a starting charge, from the reloading manual, for the cartridge i'm shooting, the powder I'm using and the bullet weight I choose.
2. I start at the manual's listed lowest charge weight, and work up to the max load in 0.5 grain increments. (I normally wont go over maximum listed charge for listed powder charge and bullet weight)
3. I load 5 rounds at each powder charge weight. Some people load 3 rounds, but to quantify the data on the group size, I shoot 5 rounds with an overall length that's listed in the manual for the cartridge and bullet I'm using.
3. After seeing which powder charge groups the most precise on paper, I then go into optimal seating depth adjustments by using Berger's guidelines here: Bullet seating depth article I use this method for any bullet type, not just Berger VLD's. The only thing I do differently than the article is; start shooting, with my optimal charge of powder, the furthest "jump" bullet depth first, then work my way closer to the lands/rifling. I don't start shooting jammed bullets first. I shoot them last to be observant of increasing chamber pressures based on how the primer appears when the cartridge is ejected.
I can do all that in about 50-60 rounds.
Then, after all that....If you REALLY want to get into the thick of it for narrower muzzle velocity variations, you do brass prep. Which for me, is: stainless steel media cleaning/tumbling, internal flash hole deburring, trim to length(when needed) and anneal the cases before sizing. You can't do much more than that, besides weighing each piece of brass, weighing each bullet and separating them into weight variance groups and blah blah blah. Weighing brass and bullets and putting them into "weight categories" is overkill and unnecessary, to me. There's only so much you can do to fight your muzzle velocity variation. Brass type(Lapua vs: Hornady vs. Federal etc), brass prep, precision of powder charge weight and seating depth is about as precise as you should be(if you want too) Just keep a log book for each rifle and optimal powder charge and bullet seating depth length to check back on if need be.
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Describe what you went through in detail.
For 90% of my loading finding a load is pretty fast. Then every once in awhile Murphy shows up.
Experience and struggle are the best teacher.
Tell us the process and we may be able to help.
Also remeber alot of us can shoot at home so it makes our lives so much easier. So dont be discouraged by it yet.
For 90% of my loading finding a load is pretty fast. Then every once in awhile Murphy shows up.
Experience and struggle are the best teacher.
Tell us the process and we may be able to help.
Also remeber alot of us can shoot at home so it makes our lives so much easier. So dont be discouraged by it yet.
@straightshooter1 I have gotten my current load to single digit SD's a few times. Checked with a Magnetospeed.
I pick a charge weight that is kinda middle of the road for my selected powder.
I will start with that charge and load 5- 10rnds and jump up the charge in increments of .2 for every 5-10rds usually until I have about 50 loaded up without exceeding max charge. I then go to the range I work at and shoot groups @ 100yds while monitoring the rounds on the chronograph.
Once I find what is throwing the smallest group @ 100yds I load some more up and I have to go to a different range (The range I work @ only has 100 & 200yds) and shoot them @ 500-600yds
and see how it performs. Then I play with seating depths.
My Current Load: Good out to 750yds (24 MOA Elv)
CCI-200 primer
Peterson Brass
IMR-4064 42.6gr
168gr SMK (.040 off the lands)
2600fps Velocity
Ruger RPR 20" factory barrel
My goal is to get this rifle out to 1000yds with decent accuracy. So I learned from first-hand experience that my 168 SMK load ain't gonna be able to go the distance (transonic issues). So I want to work up a load using the Berger 175gr OTM Tactical, and the Bergers are $50 something a box of 100. Now I know you have to pay to play but I would like to not waste unnecessary time and money to do so. Do any of you guys have any experience pushing a 20" 308 to 1000yds?
Please don't tell me I should have bought a 6.5 creed I hear it enough from every one else trying to thumb thier nose @ 308. If it's not possible to take a 20" 308 to 1000yds thats fine.
I know I saw Frank take a 20" 308 to beyond 1000yds on a youtube video, and I am sure he had cutting edge equipment and he is way more skilled than I am.
I pick a charge weight that is kinda middle of the road for my selected powder.
I will start with that charge and load 5- 10rnds and jump up the charge in increments of .2 for every 5-10rds usually until I have about 50 loaded up without exceeding max charge. I then go to the range I work at and shoot groups @ 100yds while monitoring the rounds on the chronograph.
Once I find what is throwing the smallest group @ 100yds I load some more up and I have to go to a different range (The range I work @ only has 100 & 200yds) and shoot them @ 500-600yds
and see how it performs. Then I play with seating depths.
My Current Load: Good out to 750yds (24 MOA Elv)
CCI-200 primer
Peterson Brass
IMR-4064 42.6gr
168gr SMK (.040 off the lands)
2600fps Velocity
Ruger RPR 20" factory barrel
My goal is to get this rifle out to 1000yds with decent accuracy. So I learned from first-hand experience that my 168 SMK load ain't gonna be able to go the distance (transonic issues). So I want to work up a load using the Berger 175gr OTM Tactical, and the Bergers are $50 something a box of 100. Now I know you have to pay to play but I would like to not waste unnecessary time and money to do so. Do any of you guys have any experience pushing a 20" 308 to 1000yds?
Please don't tell me I should have bought a 6.5 creed I hear it enough from every one else trying to thumb thier nose @ 308. If it's not possible to take a 20" 308 to 1000yds thats fine.
I know I saw Frank take a 20" 308 to beyond 1000yds on a youtube video, and I am sure he had cutting edge equipment and he is way more skilled than I am.
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There should be no problem getting that Berger 175 OTM out to 1000 with a 20" barrel. I did it with my factory 20" barrel before I swapped it out for a 24" Krieger barrel. And you can do it with IMR 4064 or better yet, go with H4895 as it'll give you a little more MV and even a little better consistency in you loads. With the 4064 I was using 43.7 grs that gave me 2660 fps. for my 175 SMK's. Though you can get out to 1000 easy enough, the wind will be a challenge.
There should be no problem getting that Berger 175 OTM out to 1000 with a 20" barrel. I did it with my factory 20" barrel before I swapped it out for a 24" Krieger barrel. And you can do it with IMR 4064 or better yet, go with H4895 as it'll give you a little more MV and even a little better consistency in you loads. With the 4064 I was using 43.7 grs that gave me 2660 fps. for my 175 SMK's. Though you can get out to 1000 easy enough, the wind will be a challenge.
I have a friend just getting serious about long range shooting who shoots 308.
In early February we were in eastern Oregon shooting.
It was quite challenging conditions that weekend.
We were going to move a target further and I wanted him to take a shot at it before we moved it.
I was on a spotter to give him a wind call for 900 yards.
He dialed in his elevation
Called hold three mils right.
bang,,,,,,,,,,,,,ping!
Watching that bullet go pretty hard right then swing in for the hit was one of the coolest traces I’ve seen.
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For what it’s worth, I’ve done load development on 3 RPR’s in 3 different calibers. Every single one liked the heavier class of bullets. 308 liked 175-178 gr, the 243 liked 105 gr, and the 338 liked the 300 gr. Your mileage may vary, I just don’t think Ruger optimizes for anything but the heavy pills. Just trying to help save you some cash. Good luck to you.
I keep coming back to 175 SMK's for my .308 RPR as well as the 168 SMK's for shorter distances out to 600. I've tried Berger 175 and 185 VLD's and 175 Nosler CC's and just didn't get the results I do with the SMK's. However, not long ago I got a great deal on some Berger 185 Juggernauts and found a load that gets really good results in my RPR with the Krieger barrel (40.9 gr. 4064), though I haven't had a chance yet to try them at long range.
Here’s what I do:
Decide about what velocity you want to run. Research known load data (tons online) and see about where that charge weight is. Let’s say it’s 34.0gr.
Load up 5rnds of .2 increments 1 grain each side. So, you’d load 33.0-35.0 in two grain increments.
Fire them over chrono without worrying about groups. Look for either ES nodes or velocity flat spots.
Let’s say it was:
33.0 = 25 es
33.2 = 5 ES
33.4 = 18 es
33.6 = 10 es
33.8 = 8 es
34.0 = 10 es
34.2 = 23 es
etc etc
33.6-34.0 had a very consistent ES. 33.8 is in the middle.
So, take 33.8. Then load up 3 shot groups starting with .005 off the lands and increase .003 each time up to .040 (or however high you want). Or if you want to jump more you could start at .040 and increase .003 each time.
This time you will be shooting groups so no chrono that attaches to barrel. Shoot the 3 shot groups and you’ll see a seating depth node where the groups shrink and then get bigger again.
Pick the seating depth that’s in the middle of that node.
That’s it. Done.
After a few hundred rounds you can either measure chamber to chase lands or you can load up three 3 shot groups. One group the same length as original load, one with .003 more length and another with .006 more. Shoot the three groups and whichever one shoots like the rifle did when you first tested seating depths is your length for the next few hundred.
Decide about what velocity you want to run. Research known load data (tons online) and see about where that charge weight is. Let’s say it’s 34.0gr.
Load up 5rnds of .2 increments 1 grain each side. So, you’d load 33.0-35.0 in two grain increments.
Fire them over chrono without worrying about groups. Look for either ES nodes or velocity flat spots.
Let’s say it was:
33.0 = 25 es
33.2 = 5 ES
33.4 = 18 es
33.6 = 10 es
33.8 = 8 es
34.0 = 10 es
34.2 = 23 es
etc etc
33.6-34.0 had a very consistent ES. 33.8 is in the middle.
So, take 33.8. Then load up 3 shot groups starting with .005 off the lands and increase .003 each time up to .040 (or however high you want). Or if you want to jump more you could start at .040 and increase .003 each time.
This time you will be shooting groups so no chrono that attaches to barrel. Shoot the 3 shot groups and you’ll see a seating depth node where the groups shrink and then get bigger again.
Pick the seating depth that’s in the middle of that node.
That’s it. Done.
After a few hundred rounds you can either measure chamber to chase lands or you can load up three 3 shot groups. One group the same length as original load, one with .003 more length and another with .006 more. Shoot the three groups and whichever one shoots like the rifle did when you first tested seating depths is your length for the next few hundred.
Yes, finding a stable load can be that simple.
Learning that was a game changer for me.
But first, in order to get those kinds of ES's one needs to have a good refined reloading procedure that produces pretty consistent cartridges . . . huh???
Let's say one is loading just 34.0 grs only and tends to get ES's like 35 es, 12 es, 40 es, 5 es, 27 es. . . . and then tries to do what you suggest. Is the method going to work with those kinds of ES's?
How are your measuring your rounds? Are you measuring CBTO (case base to ogive) or OAL? I found that once I started making my rounds consistent in the CBTO measurement, things got much better. Do you have a micrometer seating die? That can also help immensely.
Also, if you are using the 175 SMK seconds, beware that they can vary a lot in the base to ogive measurement. I bought a load of those and found out the hard way. They are my blackout plinking rounds now.
I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but my 308 loves Varget powder. I know-more variables!
Also, if you are using the 175 SMK seconds, beware that they can vary a lot in the base to ogive measurement. I bought a load of those and found out the hard way. They are my blackout plinking rounds now.
I don't know if it's been suggested yet, but my 308 loves Varget powder. I know-more variables!
If you don’t have a good refined loading process, then you can’t expect anything consistent regardless.You’re wasting your time doing anything at all until process is good enough to produce consistent chrono numbers. You shouldn’t be load developing before you learn how to make consistent ammo.
Again, we go back to loading circa 1985 if people think they should start cranking out ammo the minute they buy a loading kit.
There’s almost no activity on the planet where we just jump into production without first learning how to properly use the tools we have. But for some reason people think you should just buy a loading kit and start cranking out ammo to shoot and load develop.
Until your loading process is refine enough to make consistent ammo, you should:
1) continue running factory ammo when it’s something important
2) for practice rounds just pick a safe powder charge and adjust seating depth for acceptable group size
3) research and practice your loading process until you are achieving consistent enough numbers to properly develop a load
There’s an ocw thread going on right now that shows exactly what happens when someone doesn’t have the knowledge or process even remotely close.
^^^^^
should be councilor at planned parenthood!
And you can’t always fall back on “velocity flat spots” as there’s not always one depending on the primer/powder combination.
For example, my 6gt with cci 450’s just keeps increasing by an average of 12fps per .2 grain. From 32.0-36.0, it never goes flat. But there are three obvious nodes in which ES stabilizes. The +/- fps isn’t enough to matter if environment pushes it either way.
My 6x47 with cci 450’s has velocity flat spots. They also coincide with stable ES.
Thus far, when I do get velocity flat spots, they always coincide with ES nodes.
If you’re shooting a discipline where the slight velocity change matters, then you need to change primers and get those velocity flat spots.
I would highly suggest getting one of these https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...s-and-gauges/lock-n-load-bullet-comparator#!/ or something similar. You'll be surprised at how much the OAL is the same but the CBTO is different.
For me anyway, I was able to get from around 11-12 SD's to single digits with only that change.
Well I feel my loading process is consistent. I have loaded several 100rd batches and have had consistent velocity even with the changes in lots of powder and projectiles I still get single digit SD's and 15fps ES on average and the Velocity matches the previous batches. I do have a comparator but with The SMK's OAL varies quite a bit and creates inconsistencies but when going off of CBTOL is when I get greater accuracy and consistency between rounds.
I wholeheartedly agree. I only bring it up because it seems so often that OCW or ladder tests are suggested assuming that one has good refined reloading process that gives consistent results.
Too often, I'm guilty of doing that too.
Or instead of seating to middle of jump distance load to the front side of that spot so as throat wears you have more time in that node
Yeah, I found this out once as I had a box of 500 SMK's that had a BTO difference of .033, which would really gave me a variance in seating depth . . . which of course makes a variance the cases volumes resulting in significant differences in velocity. Since then, I always sort my bullets by BTO, but only when I find the batch has a significant difference. Otherwise, if as I measure them and find they're pretty consistent (like staying within .003 - .004), I won't sort them (which for me is usually a box of 500 or more of the same lot). Rarely have I had this issue, but I always check anyway. So for, in my limited experience, I've not had this kind of inconsistency with any Berger bullets.
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@straightshooter1 Same here my latest box is pretty bad on consistency .600 - .619 Seirra needs to step their game up a bit! They used to be the Bullet Smiths but IDK anymore
1. Pick a mid-level, safe load
2. Test Jump: Load 30 rounds (6 x): .03, .06, .09, .120, .150
3. Shoot 2 separate 3 shot groups. One of the 5 COALs will outperform the others (unless shooting a BR or 6.5x47, in which case forget load dev and be happy)
4. With jump established load .3-.5 grains steps in charge weight to find pressure
5. Once pressure identified back off a few % points on max charge weight (~ 1 grain or so for a 6.5x47 or .308)
6. Test the above load for Accuracy, SD/ES, & Vertical at close range and distance
7. If unsatisfied with Accuracy, SD/ES, & Vertical - only then adjust charge weight
This process works and does not require tedious load development. In the last few years, I've never needed to go beyond step 6 to find a solid Half-MOA, sub 20es/10sd consistent load in ~50 rounds. Everything mentioned above in terms of consistent reloading practises applies.
I did a lot of redundant time-consuming crap when I thought points were gained in the reloading room, don't be the guy prioritising neck turning over dry-firing
2. Test Jump: Load 30 rounds (6 x): .03, .06, .09, .120, .150
3. Shoot 2 separate 3 shot groups. One of the 5 COALs will outperform the others (unless shooting a BR or 6.5x47, in which case forget load dev and be happy)
4. With jump established load .3-.5 grains steps in charge weight to find pressure
5. Once pressure identified back off a few % points on max charge weight (~ 1 grain or so for a 6.5x47 or .308)
6. Test the above load for Accuracy, SD/ES, & Vertical at close range and distance
7. If unsatisfied with Accuracy, SD/ES, & Vertical - only then adjust charge weight
This process works and does not require tedious load development. In the last few years, I've never needed to go beyond step 6 to find a solid Half-MOA, sub 20es/10sd consistent load in ~50 rounds. Everything mentioned above in terms of consistent reloading practises applies.
I did a lot of redundant time-consuming crap when I thought points were gained in the reloading room, don't be the guy prioritising neck turning over dry-firing
@Powder_Burns funny thing is... my range has a reloading room but I know if I attempt to use it I would end up forgetting something critically important. It has the basics, a couple of shell holders, an RCBS rock chucker, RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, and an annealing machine. I would end up forgetting my dies, powder, or my bullet seaters shell holder.
Checklists are your friend. The one time I didn’t use a checklist was for a turkey hunt, got set up in my blind 30 minutes before sunrise and realized i left the shotgun shells at home 40 miles away.
Yeah. . . at my advanced age, checklists really same time and effort. It never used to be that way. But hey. . . . life is still good.
Also in the spirit of saving time and money, is it necessary to fireform brass if using good quality brass, utilizing a quality chamber and full length sizing prior to initial firing?
I only run a mandrels down the neck on new brass to get up to correct neck tension.
Typically new brass requires more powder than fire fire formed brass to get the same speed.
I agree with steelhead in that running the brass into a die making it even shorter just exacerbates the problem of the brass not matching the chamber. Expand the neck if you want to but leave the body alone.
New brass I just load a known safe load. Either practice with it or shoot a club match.
