Hating these Hornady 105gn BTHP Match 6mm Creedmoor bullets for reloading

[sig2009]

I'm reloading some of these Hornady 105gn BTHP 6mm Creedmoor bullets in brand new Aphpa Brass. All brass was prepped. Using the L.E. Micrometer seating die with a K&M arbor press. Also using the L.E. Wilson expanding mandrel. Neck tension at .001. When seating these bullets I am getting an indent around the tip of the bullet. Called Wilson and the recommended I use the VLD stem. So I ordered one and swapped out the standard stem for the VLD stem. Same thing is happening putting a deep ring around the tip of the bullet when seating. Called Wilson back and they told me to send in the stem with a couple bullets and they are going to mod the stem to the bullet under warranty. The tech I spoke with says he does this quite often with the VLD stem. It's funny because I had also reloaded some with the Barnes Match Burner 105gn BTHP with the standard stem and I'm not having this issue with the Barnes bullets. I thought that it might just be the powder charge of 39.6gn of H4350 being compressed but I'm at the low end of the scale.

Has anyone ever had any issues like this and what was the result?

 

[spife7980]

Chamfer your case mouths?
Just polish the stem yourself.

 

[sig2009]

Chamfer your case mouths?
Just polish the stem yourself.
View attachment 8661462

Tried that. Didn't work. Sending stem back to Wilson for mod. Yes. Case mouths chamfered.

 

[Mordamer]

Tumble your virgin brass in corncob or walnut for 20 minutes and the bullets will seat perfectly.

 

[918v]

Use graphite dry lube in the neck

 

[918v]

I can’t believe the vld seater stem trick didn’t work. I mean that has always been the go to around here when seating pressure is astronomical.

 

[sig2009]

I can’t believe the vld seater stem trick didn’t work. I mean that has always been the go to around here when seating pressure is astronomical.

I don't understand it either. .001 neck tension set with a mandrel is nothing!

 

[Baron23]

I don't understand it either. .001 neck tension set with a mandrel is nothing!

How did you measure post-expansion of the neck to confirm .001 interference fit after spring back?

 

[padom]

I don't understand it either. .001 neck tension set with a mandrel is nothing!

Just to ask, you measured your necks and loaded round to come to that 0.001 neck tension number? Or your basing thst off the mandrel your using??

I use all LE Wilson SS Micrometer dies with K&M arbor press and force pack.. I dont have any issues seating these bullets in my 6BR or 6 Dasher die using VLD stems in both..

Only time ive seen the indent/ring on the bullet was very high neck tension...

 

[sig2009]

How did you measure post-expansion of the neck to confirm .001 interference fit after spring back?

With the mandrel.

 

[sig2009]

Just to ask, you measured your necks and loaded round to come to that 0.001 neck tension number? Or your basing thst off the mandrel your using??

I use all LE Wilson SS Micrometer dies with K&M arbor press and force pack.. I dont have any issues seating these bullets in my 6BR or 6 Dasher die using VLD stems in both..

Only time ive seen the indent/ring on the bullet was very high neck tension...

No. No loaded round. With the mandrel as with everything I reload. I have the same set up and use the same tools with 6.5 Creedmoor, 308 and .223 and have never had this issue before. I thought it might be the new Alpha brass but I have the same issue with Lapua numerous fired brass. The only other thing I can think of is the jackets on these 105's are thinner than the heavier bullets. So it comes down to the VLD stem and when I talked to Wilson the tech says he modifies a lot of these stems for particular bullets from customers.

 

[RegionRat]

Just some suggestions.
Something sounds off, but hard to nail down from here if the NT is really only 0.001" and the necks are chamfered...
It is difficult to isolate without using an known good seater, and measuring the seating force, but lets just talk out loud for a moment.

The possibilities include:
1. Seating stem contact area is too low.
2. Brass prep or friction coefficient is wrong.
3. Bullets abnormal.

Color a fresh bullet surface with a black marker. Then, by hand push the bullet with the seating stem and spin the bullet a little.
If the contact patch is just a line, we are in trouble with the stem. If the contact patch is an area, then we have to look deeper.

Maybe try and see if you can just start the bullet and stop right when it opens the mouth just enough for the bearing diameter to barely enter the mouth and stop. See if the damage is already done.

Point of this is to learn if the damage is done right away, or as a result of the rest of the seating stroke.

If there is very high force while the bullet goes down the neck, it is the product of (hoop stress x friction coefficient) + some plastic deformation. If the highest force is all at the first entry of the bullet, then we know it is due to the case mouth chamfer.

Another thing to study is a pulled bullet. Is there evidence of scrape marks from the case mouth? Is there galling between the case and bearing surface? A little friction evidence is normal, but galling damage or scrape marks are different.

If you were close by, I would quickly inspect your necks and test a sample with my seater using the AMP press. Right now, we don't know if the damage is due to very high seating forces, or one of the other possibilities.

Does the damage still occur if you just chamfer and mandrel virgin brass without working the neck down in the die?
Would the damage occur if your prepped brass is lubricated on the ID just as a test?
These thoughts would help isolate the issues in the absence of a force measurement.

If you have an experienced friend close by that can help you out, it may save you some frustrations. On the AMP Press with my seater, we would know in short order if the damage happens under normal seating force, or if the seating force is too high for whatever reason, and the third possibility is that the bullets are just abnormal.

Having some club mates that can lend a hand would make this easy, but when you are on your own it just takes patients.

Good Luck, hope you find it quick. In for the report.

 

[jLorenzo]

Hornady must make a 6mm vld seating stem, maybe try one of their dies with the stem.

 

[sig2009]

Just some suggestions.
Something sounds off, but hard to nail down from here if the NT is really only 0.001" and the necks are chamfered...
It is difficult to isolate without using an known good seater, and measuring the seating force, but lets just talk out loud for a moment.

The possibilities include:
1. Seating stem contact area is too low.
2. Brass prep or friction coefficient is wrong.
3. Bullets abnormal.

Color a fresh bullet surface with a black marker. Then, by hand push the bullet with the seating stem and spin the bullet a little.
If the contact patch is just a line, we are in trouble with the stem. If the contact patch is an area, then we have to look deeper.

Maybe try and see if you can just start the bullet and stop right when it opens the mouth just enough for the bearing diameter to barely enter the mouth and stop. See if the damage is already done.

Point of this is to learn if the damage is done right away, or as a result of the rest of the seating stroke.

If there is very high force while the bullet goes down the neck, it is the product of (hoop stress x friction coefficient) + some plastic deformation. If the highest force is all at the first entry of the bullet, then we know it is due to the case mouth chamfer.

Another thing to study is a pulled bullet. Is there evidence of scrape marks from the case mouth? Is there galling between the case and bearing surface? A little friction evidence is normal, but galling damage or scrape marks are different.

If you were close by, I would quickly inspect your necks and test a sample with my seater using the AMP press. Right now, we don't know if the damage is due to very high seating forces, or one of the other possibilities.

Does the damage still occur if you just chamfer and mandrel virgin brass without working the neck down in the die?
Would the damage occur if your prepped brass is lubricated on the ID just as a test?
These thoughts would help isolate the issues in the absence of a force measurement.

If you have an experienced friend close by that can help you out, it may save you some frustrations. On the AMP Press with my seater, we would know in short order if the damage happens under normal seating force, or if the seating force is too high for whatever reason, and the third possibility is that the bullets are just abnormal.

Having some club mates that can lend a hand would make this easy, but when you are on your own it just takes patients.

Good Luck, hope you find it quick. In for the report.

I'll do some more research tomorrow because its late now. I just did a couple checks with the caliper. So bullet diamerter is .243 for the 6mm Creed. I checked the mandrel and it reads .242. I also checked the inside diameter of the cases I ran the mandrel through and the half dozen I checked are reading .242. So that would make it .001 neck tension.

 

[padom]

Measure the OD of a fully sized neck... then measure the neck of a loaded round.

 

[sig2009]

Measure the OD of a fully sized neck... then measure the neck of a loaded round.

I measured OD of fully sized neck at .270. Loaded round OD is .271.

 

[padom]

See post #14.

I already read your post. You didnt post the info I asked... You measured your mandrel, and your bullet and ID but said you used a caliper which is not an accurate way to measure ID necks.. Doesnt give an accurate reading. Thats why I asked if you measure the OD of your neck after all your sizing is done and did you measure OD of your neck after seating a bullet.. This will be the most accurate way for you to measure if you dont have either pin gauges and/or the proper mic

Also, you havent mentioned... How are you sizing down the necks before you use your mandrel?? For example on why Im asking these very specific questions, I run different size bushings for Lapua brass vs Alpha brass to squeeze the necks down before running my 21st Century mandrel in because using the same size bushing on Lapua and Alpha gives completely different final neck tension.... They are not the same.. Neck thickness and springback are different.

By taking all the right measurements, you can see exactly what Im talking about and know exactly what the necks are doing and when...

Measure the neck OD of a fired Lapua and fired Alpha case and write that number down
Measure the sized neck OD of Lapua and Alpha BEFORE you use your mandrel and write that number down
Measure the sized neck OD of Lapua and Alpha AFTER you run your mandrel in both of them.
Measure the neck OD of Lapua and Alpha AFTER you seat a bullet in each and write those numbers down

This is the only true way to know exactly whats going on and how much you are sizing and how much you are opening up and how much final neck tension you have. You will never know by just measuring mandrels and bullets....

 

[sig2009]

I already read your post. You didnt post the info I asked... You measured your mandrel, and your bullet and ID but said you used a caliper which is not an accurate way to measure ID necks.. Doesnt give an accurate reading. Thats why I asked if you measure the OD of your neck after all your sizing is done and did you measure OD of your neck after seating a bullet.. This will be the most accurate way for you to measure if you dont have either pin gauges and/or the proper mic

Also, you havent mentioned... How are you sizing down the necks before you use your mandrel?? For example on why Im asking these very specific questions, I run different size bushings for Lapua brass vs Alpha brass to squeeze the necks down before running my 21st Century mandrel in because using the same size bushing on Lapua and Alpha gives completely different final neck tension.... They are not the same.. Neck thickness and springback are different.

By take all the right measurements, you can see exactly what Im talking about and know exactly what the necks are doing and when...

I measured OD of fully sized neck at .270. Loaded round OD is .271. So as I said before there is .001 neck tension.

 

[padom]

I measured OD of fully sized neck at .270. Loaded round OD is .271. So as I said before there is .001 neck tension.

I didn't see any of that info in your previous posts which is why I asked..

 

[Baron23]

pin gauges

Pin gauges are our friend and don't cost near as much as a micrometer. IMO a direct measurement beats a once removed measurement like neck O.D. but I'm silly that way! lol

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[padom]

Pin gauges are our friend and don't cost near as much as a micrometer. IMO a direct measurement beats a once removed measurement like neck O.D. but I'm silly that way! lol

Class ZZ Pin Gages | Travers Tool

Buy Class ZZ Pin Gages | Shop our comprehensive inventory, online and in-stock now.

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I agree.. Pin gauges and mic are only way to get a true measurement.. I only asked for OD because hes using calipers....

 

[sig2009]

Ya. Don't know anything about those or anyone I know that has ever used them. Plus it looks like they go in increments of .005 so something I can't really use. Thanks anyway. Just shipped out the VLD stem for modification because it looks like that is the issue here and not neck tension.

 

[padom]

Ya. Don't know anything about those or anyone I know that has ever used them. Plus it looks like they go in increments of .005 so something I can't really use. Thanks anyway. Just shipped out the VLD stem for modification because it looks like that is the issue here and not neck tension.

Mine go in increments of 0.0005.. a lot of sets go in increments of 0.001... They are accurate to 0.0002... Pin gauages or a mic are the only way to get an accurate measurement. Using calipers is a "kinda close" number and fluctuates based on where you put teh calipers and how much pressure you apply..

 

[Baron23]

they go in increments of .005 so something I can't really use.

No brother....just need to look further down the list....they come in increments of .0005...5 ten thousandths...for a whopping $4/each. They are pretty much perfect for a direct measurement of neck I.D.

As far as anyone who ever used them....well, pretty much any machinist, gunsmith, or many well equipped reloaders. Very helpful and a common tool to measure I.D.

Hope the VLD stem modification solves your problem. Cheers

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Modified stem should fix it.

While not for 6mm but 6.5 and 7.62 have loaded a lot of Hornady VLD's. Modified the stem with JBweld and a bullet covered in vaseline, so the jb doesn't bond to the bullet, so it puts equal pressure on the very thin jacket. Then did what is mentioned in post #2. Stopped deforming bullets.

 

[sig2009]

No brother....just need to look further down the list....they come in increments of .0005...5 ten thousandths...for a whopping $4/each. They are pretty much perfect for a direct measurement of neck I.D.

As far as anyone who ever used them....well, pretty much any machinist, gunsmith, or many well equipped reloaders. Very helpful and a common tool to measure I.D.

Hope the VLD stem modification solves your problem. Cheers

View attachment 8661900

Thanks again. Im still not a fan of the Hornady 105gn BTHP. First loads I worked up were running 9 SD'S and 20's for ES. On the other hand the first loads with the 105 gn Barnes Match Burners were getting me 2,3, and 4 SD'S with ES anywhere from 5 up to the lower teens.