Suppressors Having POI issues with deadair

[Sonnystults]

I am running a sandman L can on a seekins havak bravo 6.5creed, using the deadair keymo qd system. I am noticing a .75-1 moa poi shift between shooting sessions where I remove and reinstall the can between sessions. My usual practice is transport rifle unsupressed in its case, install suppressor while setting up to shoot, shoot match or finish hunting session, remove can transport and store unsupressed.

I may be expecting unrealistic consistency out of a qd system but I feel like as long as I'm keeping the carbon build up removed from the taper on the locking ring I should be seeing pretty consistent results from session to session. I have googled and came up empty on information so anything anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

Considering just going to direct thread but would like to identify the issue I am seeing with current setup before i jump on another suppressor purchase.

 

[j741]

Have you contacted Dead Air to ask their advice? The KeyMo system is pretty well liked so I'd be surprised a bit if all users experienced such shift between sessions. I know TB's CB brake mount is very repeatable for me with removing the suppressor after each session and re-installing before next one. I would think the KeyMo would be similar.

 

[Sincerd]

How tight is your MD? Thatd be the first thing I checked. Did you use rockset?

 

[Sincerd]

Hold on between sessions? You dont mean when you take it off then put it on. You mean every time you go to the range right? Could it be all the other variables that changed since the last time you went to the range? You shooting indoors? You try removing can then immediately reinstalling and shooting groups?

 

[Sonnystults]

Hold on between sessions? You dont mean when you take it off then put it on. You mean every time you go to the range right? Could it be all the other variables that changed since the last time you went to the range? You shooting indoors? You try removing can then immediately reinstalling and shooting groups?

Yes I first noticed it from one session to the next, once I noticed it occurring I then tested between every 2 and 3 shot strings just to be sure it was the suppressor. Sometimes it would maintain poi and other times it would shift.

MD is about 40-50ft lbs, used copper anti-seize when installing, used the provided shims that came with the keymo to correctly time it as well.

 

[Sonnystults]

Have you contacted Dead Air to ask their advice? The KeyMo system is pretty well liked so I'd be surprised a bit if all users experienced such shift between sessions. I know TB's CB brake mount is very repeatable for me with removing the suppressor after each session and re-installing before next one. I would think the KeyMo would be similar.

I sent out an email to them yesterday but have not heard a reply yet due to shot being this week. I understand ppl are busy so this isnt me complaining about lack of a response.

 

[crowe938]

Key-Mo? Or do you mean a Keymount muzzle brake? And if so, you mounted a muzzle brake with anti-seize and not Rocksett or loctite? Not sure that’s the best move.

I have a Sandman-L, used with a Keymount muzzle brake. There is ZERO shift between shooting sessions, and the shift between can on and can off is TOTALLY repeatable.

 

[Sonnystults]

Key-Mo? Or do you mean a Keymount muzzle brake? And if so, you mounted a muzzle brake with anti-seize and not Rocksett or loctite? Not sure that’s the best move.

I have a Sandman-L, used with a Keymount muzzle brake. There is ZERO shift between shooting sessions, and the shift between can on and can off is TOTALLY repeatable.

I've never had one come loose after torquing the brake. I can remove, clean and reinstall with rockset but I've already removed cleaned and reinstalled without adding any more anti-seize and the same problem has persisted.

 

[crowe938]

What type of ammo are you shooting?

 

[Sonnystults]

140eldm handloads.

 

[crowe938]

Yes I first noticed it from one session to the next, once I noticed it occurring I then tested between every 2 and 3 shot strings just to be sure it was the suppressor. Sometimes it would maintain poi and other times it would shift.

The fact that it shifts sometimes, but not all the time leads me to believe it could be inconsistency with the ammo used or shooter error. I'm not saying it's not the can - it's just rare. I get it, it's super frustrating - no doubt. Especially when there seems to be no rhyme or reason.

You're not cleaning the barrel in between sessions, are you?

 

[Sonnystults]

No not cleaning between. Have tried cleaning only the brake to see if it was carbon buildup causing inconsistent lockup but that didnt help.

I'm not saying it isnt me or possibly the ammo, but I can consistently shoot half moa regardless of where the poi has shifted to. That's what lead me to thinking it was the can and not something else since I can remove and reinstall and get my poi shifted back to zero. But again, it may be me having parallax slightly out of adjustment or something similar. One of the only things I havent tried is to have a friend remove and reinstall while I'm still behind the gun to prevent any head/optic alignment variation.

 

[crowe938]

Is the barrel new? How many rounds through it?

And what type of optic and mount? If you're saying it's mainly between range sessions, could it be your optic losing zero during transport? Did you shoot this rifle much prior to receiving the suppressor?

 

[Sonnystults]

Is the barrel new? How many rounds through it?

Relatively new. Either at 203 or 208 after this last weekend, have to check my notes.

 

[chrismartin]

I remember a discussion on ar15.com about a similar issue. Mageever (One of the DA engineers) said that (IIRC), they had some mounts that were out of spec and the 3 keys wouldn't turn all the way around their pathway. This causes variance in the taper mount area (The pathways override the taper)

Anyway, just a thought...

Dead Air Sandman-K destroyed my accuracy - Page 2 - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Regaurdless, I'd be contacting DA. I'd also test with a couple boxes of factory ammo and make sure everything else is torqued down properly. Also, all my mounts use just rocksett, no anti-seize. I haven't had any POI shifts on my rifles.

 

[Sonnystults]

I remember a discussion on ar15.com about a similar issue. Mageever (One of the DA engineers) said that (IIRC), they had some mounts that were out of spec and the 3 keys wouldn't turn all the way around their pathway. This causes variance in the taper mount area (The pathways override the taper)

Anyway, just a thought...

Dead Air Sandman-K destroyed my accuracy - Page 2 - AR15.COM

Firearm Discussion and Resources from AR-15, AK-47, Handguns and more! Buy, Sell, and Trade your Firearms and Gear.

www.ar15.com

Regaurdless, I'd be contacting DA. I'd also test with a couple boxes of factory ammo and make sure everything else is torqued down properly. Also, all my mounts use just rocksett, no anti-seize. I haven't had any POI shifts on my rifles.

Thank you, I will try to dig deeper into that.

 

[crowe938]

Relatively new. Either at 203 or 208 after this last weekend, have to check my notes.

Barrel should be settled, or close to it. But every barrel is different. I agree w/ ChrisMartin. Try some high quality factory loads in an attempt to eliminate all possible variables. Check scope base, rings, etc. And again, it could be your optic.

 

[Sonnystults]

Barrel should be settled, or close to it. But every barrel is different. I agree w/ ChrisMartin. Try some high quality factory loads in an attempt to eliminate all possible variables. Check scope base, rings, etc. And again, it could be your optic.

I do get the same results from factory 140eld match, that I have tested.

Got aggravated and went out one evening and fired about 30 rounds removing and reinstalling can after each 3 rnd string, ran through 9 or 10 hand loads and a full box of factory loads. Some times it would move and stay there for a couple of cycles and some times it would move between each cycle. Seemed to have no correlation to anything else as everything was staying the same except I was getting up from behind the rifle to remove and reinstall the can. I'm not sure that I have done a sufficient job of explaining that so basically itd look like this...

Group 1-3 hand loaded 140eldm
1: zero
2: 1high .5right
3: zero

Group 4-10 factory 140 eldm
4: .75high .5right
5: .75high .5right
6: zero
7: .75high .5right
8: zero
9: zero
10: .75 high .5right

I'm not saying that was EXACTLY how it played out, I'm not in front of my notes at the moment. However, it was very similar to that. I ended up just walking away while pulling my hair out.

Again, this really may be a ME problem, I'm in no way to arrogant or prideful to admit that. It's just something that I have never experienced in the randomness of when it happens. And again, none of the list groups 1-10 were bad groups .4-.6moa, and yes they were 3 shot groups which I typically dont even use for data but I felt that they would suffice for the test I was performing.

 

[crowe938]

Huh. It's interesting that the shift is consistent - moves from zero to .75H, .5R. That is an interesting piece of data. It's not like it moves all over the map. It shifts between 2 points.

My guess is (and I'm stressing the word "guess") that it is the way the brake is mounted on the barrel, or the manner in which the can is being tightened on the brake. Something is not consistent - but it is consistently inconsistent (if that makes sense). I know if I shoot a box of ammo through my Sandman, sometimes I need a strap wrench to get it off the brake. If you've only torqued the brake down with 40-50 ft lbs, and used anti-seize, I can't imagine it wouldn't come loose. But, if it did, I imagine you'd notice it wasn't timed.

Keep us posted Sonny. But hang in there. Out of all of the suppressors I own, the Sandman-L is my favorite. It's awesome. I hope you get it to work for you.

 

[Sonnystults]

That may be the problem. I will strip the brake, rockset it, and start trying to get suppressor tighter when I install. I havent had any issues with the brake coming loose or losing time but I do agree about the consistently inconsistent point. And again, I cant thank you and everyone else enough for the information on this. I will keep you updated. Thank you, again!

 

[Sonnystults]

Huh. It's interesting that the shift is consistent - moves from zero to .75H, .5R. That is an interesting piece of data. It's not like it moves all over the map. It shifts between 2 points.

My guess is (and I'm stressing the word "guess") that it is the way the brake is mounted on the barrel, or the manner in which the can is being tightened on the brake.

How tight are you going when initially installing? I am going till it stops clicking but not so tight I have to sit on the rifle to get that final click. If that makes sense.

 

[Sincerd]

Try removing the keymo spring and washer piece and clean it?

Try installing break w rockset and 60 ftlbs

 

[Sonnystults]

Try removing the keymo spring and washer piece and clean it?

Try installing break w rockset and 60 ftlbs

Will do. That is the plan for this evening, minus disassembling the spring and washer.

 

[Sonnystults]

Is the barrel new? How many rounds through it?

And what type of optic and mount? If you're saying it's mainly between range sessions, could it be your optic losing zero during transport? Did you shoot this rifle much prior to receiving the suppressor?

I apologize crowe938, I missed the last half of this message. Right now I am running a vortex strike eagle 4-24 until I get my gen 2 razor. It is sitting in seekins rings on the factory seekins 20moa base. Everything (base included) was torqued with loctite prior to the first shot fired. I have bot shot rifle at all without the suppressor (will be today to establish a new zero prior to match this weekend).

Also, deadair just emailed me back stating they would like the can back for inspection because the issue sounds very strange. I am pleased with that response but requested the ability to try a couple more things to eliminate a few other variables. However, if after the next few tests it still proceeds to shift I will gladly send it back to let them check it out. I just dont want to waste their time if it is something that I am causing on my end.

 

[Sincerd]

They are good people

 

[Blysccr]

In for the answer. Have 2 of the same rifles different calibers. 6.5 was dead nuts, 308 (breaking barrel in) was similar results to what you’re seeing. Sandman l with qd.

 

[GRIFFIN_ARMAMENT]

You should see consistent POI shift on the same platform and ammo with the same suppressor. We randomly select and test samples from batches to ensure POI shift is consistent. We also once pulled 5 consecutive serial number'd cans and tested them for POI shift. It was neglegable from can to can. Consistent manufacturing from part to part is the only way to eliminate irradic spreads with suppressors.

Its possible that it's the barrel thread though as well. When customers have issues we first suggest they mount the same muzzle device to another host firearm if they have access to one and test it. If the problem doesnt present itself than it's safe to say its a variable being caused by the other firearm. If that doesnt fix the issue or if the customer doesnt want to dick with it, we take the can into customer service and the mount and suppressor are QCd using a protocol developed specifically for that system. After we QC if no issues are found we practically test POI shift and accuracy on a company firearms internally. If this test also is normal than the suppressor and mount is said to be in "normal working order" and it is sent back to the customer with suggestions and tips for trouble shooting the host firearm. If it needs manufacturing repair we perform the work, inspect and then practically test before sending it back to the customer.

These 5 Recce 7 suppressors were attached to the host firearm (a custom Tikka by Short Action Customs) and fired with 1 round, then detached for a total of a 5 round group from 5 different suppressors, sequentially serial number'd cans to show manufacturing consistency and performance of the Taper Mount, the Recce 7, and Griffin's pursuit of excellence. The 5 round group was ~ .6" CTC @ 100 yards

 

[Sonnystults]

You should see consistent POI shift on the same platform and ammo with the same suppressor. We randomly select and test samples from batches to ensure POI shift is consistent. We also once pulled 5 consecutive serial number'd cans and tested them for POI shift. It was neglegable from can to can. Consistent manufacturing from part to part is the only way to eliminate irradic spreads with suppressors.

Its possible that it's the barrel thread though as well. When customers have issues we first suggest they mount the same muzzle device to another host firearm if they have access to one and test it. If the problem doesnt present itself than it's safe to say its a variable being caused by the other firearm. If that doesnt fix the issue or if the customer doesnt want to dick with it, we take the can into customer service and the mount and suppressor are QCd using a protocol developed specifically for that system. After we QC if no issues are found we practically test POI shift and accuracy on a company firearms internally. If this test also is normal than the suppressor and mount is said to be in "normal working order" and it is sent back to the customer with suggestions and tips for trouble shooting the host firearm. If it needs manufacturing repair we perform the work, inspect and then practically test before sending it back to the customer.

These 5 Recce 7 suppressors were attached to the host firearm (a custom Tikka by Short Action Customs) and fired with 1 round, then detached for a total of a 5 round group from 5 different suppressors, sequentially serial number'd cans to show manufacturing consistency and performance of the Taper Mount, the Recce 7, and Griffin's pursuit of excellence. The 5 round group was ~ .6" CTC @ 100 yards

I greatly appreciate that explanation. I had a match to shoot today and wanted to shoot with it due to weather prohibiting me from getting a new dope without the suppressor. I have reinstalled my muzzle device with rockset and torqued to around 70ftlbs but have not had the chance to run a test for consistency since doing so. I "hope" to do that tomorrow. While doing so I will also test on a different host to see if the same issue is occurring. Again, I greatly appreciate the insite and information. I will be happy to do all the problem solving I can to prevent anyone from the mfg having to waste their time on an issue that was/is induced by me/rifle/ect.

 

[Mageever]

Thanks for everyone's input on this, including Griffins.

It's expected that a KeyMount system will always return to zero. There can be a lot of variables that add variation, but with all of them removed, it should always work.

I had the some concern on the barrel threads. I don't worry about Rockset being used, but I do worry about torque. I've seen a lot of rifles have issues with torque exceeding 35-40 ft-lbs. It effectively stretches the length of barrel under it and will affect precision. I think it amplifies the effect of heating and cooling between shot groups too, but that may just be me reading too much into my own observations.

Let us know if you want to get it back to factory for inspection.

Todd Magee
Dead Air Engineering

 

[Sonnystults]

Thanks for everyone's input on this, including Griffins.

It's expected that a KeyMount system will always return to zero. There can be a lot of variables that add variation, but with all of them removed, it should always work.

I had the some concern on the barrel threads. I don't worry about Rockset being used, but I do worry about torque. I've seen a lot of rifles have issues with torque exceeding 35-40 ft-lbs. It effectively stretches the length of barrel under it and will affect precision. I think it amplifies the effect of heating and cooling between shot groups too, but that may just be me reading too much into my own observations.

Let us know if you want to get it back to factory for inspection.

Todd Magee
Dead Air Engineering

It appears to be resolved. I have not been able to duplicate the results that I was previously seeing since: removing, cleaning barrel threads, cleaning brake threads, reinstalling at around 60ft lbs w/ rockset.

When I removed the brake it was not loose in the slightest so I'm not sure as to exactly what was causing it besides possibly something on my end that I wasnt aware was happening.

I greatly appreciate all of the info that has been offered.

Thanks again guys!

 

[Supersubes]

It appears to be resolved. I have not been able to duplicate the results that I was previously seeing since: removing, cleaning barrel threads, cleaning brake threads, reinstalling at around 60ft lbs w/ rockset.

When I removed the brake it was not loose in the slightest so I'm not sure as to exactly what was causing it besides possibly something on my end that I wasnt aware was happening.

I greatly appreciate all of the info that has been offered.

Thanks again guys!

60 ft/lbs, is that a typo?

 

[Sonnystults]

60 ft/lbs, is that a typo?

No?

 

[Supersubes]

No?

That’s a lot of torque. You see dead airs post above yours? I think that’s even pushing it.

 

[Sonnystults]

That’s a lot of torque. You see dead airs post above yours? I think that’s even pushing it.

That was my initial thoughts as well but everyone seemed to think I had installed incorrectly to begin with so figured trying what someone else advised couldnt hurt. I dont like that it's on there that tight. It's not a lugnut/wheel stud. I'm in the process of removing it as I type this. Just wanted to try and eliminate a variable. If it starts shifting again when i reduce the torque I'll know for sure what's causing it.

 

[Sonnystults]

I use a

I always wondered how everyone was “torquing”the brake without a traditional socket, like the only wrench I have used is a standard wrench ? ....Are most of you using a 3/4 normal socket or is there a special tool (I know I’m a special tool for asking?)
And where is everyone finding Rockset?
I never used any thread compounds of any type for my suppressor so I may take it off and re-do it along with the torque wrench/socket

I use a 3/4" crows foot attached to a torque wrench. I know it's not exact but I'm sure it's pretty close. Same concept as a barrel nut wrench that's sent with a handguard to an ar.

 

[Sincerd]

And Amazon can have a tube of rockset at your house within 24 hours

 

[Sonnystults]

Just food for thought I’ve noticed when I’m trying to tighten my suppressor down until it stops ratcheting, if I have the suppressor cover on obviously you cannot get a good grip I always take that off and make sure I have a nice firm grip on the can with my bare hands

I dont currently run a cover so that hasnt been a problem...yet. I can see where it could be though and I appreciate the insite, itll be something I keep in mind going forward after I get a cover.

 

[Sonnystults]

Wow, amazing customer service from dead air. I sent an email today asking if they had any tricks for removing my muzzle break so I could apply some Loctite, straighten it out a little bit and make sure it was torqued properly, not a major deal the suppressor is working just fine just being a little anal retentive. I just got a call from Rob at Dead Air asking if I got the muzzle break off, I was blown away as I didn’t ask anyone to contact me or anything as it was not a pressing issue, just a shout out to dead air for amazing customer service. Actually,I don’t even know how they got my phone number. Ha ha

Like stated above. They're good ppl. And are definitely my go-to for cans.

 

[Sonnystults]

I have a YHM Turbo on my AR ....wish I went with the Dead air just to have all Dead air stuff. The Turbo is great for 360.00 plus stamp. I just love love the DA Sandman L on the bolt gun. Are most people running the Sandman S or K on the AR platform? In case I get the itch. I want a short barrel with a Can. Don’t need just want

I have a buddy with the K and he enjoys it alot. My L is noticeably more quiet but that is to be expected. I personally only have experience with the L, and now trying to decide between an S or the nomad

 

[Sonnystults]

@precisionrifleunderground has excellent can insulators and covers. I love mine. (I don’t think I tagged him right.

I will definitely look into that, thank you!