Headshot....Argument for a LPVO???......real life example....

[Texaslongshot]

I know the debate about LPVO vs. Red dot are endless with some valid arguments on both sides. I was wondering if the enhanced ability to take a headshot would be a consideration for some in going with a LPVO. I am a fan of the LPVO for the versatility.

Here is a real world example. At the 3:04 mark in this video you can see him dialing up the power on the LPVO and quickly there after takes a head shot on the suspect.

 

[Greyswandir]

I know the debate about LPVO vs. Red dot are endless with some valid arguments on both sides. I was wondering if the enhanced ability to take a headshot would be a consideration for some in going with a LPVO. I am a fan of the LPVO for the versatility.

Here is a real world example. At the 3:04 mark in this video you can see him dialing up the power on the LPVO and quickly there after takes a head shot on the suspect.

Absolutely. Benefits are target ID at longer range and ability to make more precise shots as your example shows. An offset RMR weighs very little (arisaka offset 2.2 oz + rmr 1oz) and adds quick close range ability.

 

[Mr.BR]

If you can't make a headshot at 25-30y (case in the video) with a red dot , LPVO will only hinder you further, fiddling with parallax and magnification

 

[Birddog6424]

If you can't make a headshot at 25-30y (case in the video) with a red dot , LPVO will only hinder you further, fiddling with parallax and magnification

LPVO's rarely have parallax. And it takes less then two seconds to dial magnification.

The suspect was holding a child, I can't think of a better scenario to be able to zoom in and take a nice precise shot. Red dots are fine for Minute of Man, not precision.

The LPVO was the right tool for the job in this scenario.

 

[FredHammer]

30yds in I've trained hostage situations with Aimpoint only, and being mindful of optical offset. Basically, aim at the hair line or top of head to put it through the bad guy's nose/light switch. Past 50yds I'd think about flipping the 3X on. Just cause.

 

[Mr.BR]

LPVO's rarely have parallax. And it takes less then two seconds to dial magnification.

The suspect was holding a child, I can't think of a better scenario to be able to zoom in and take a nice precise shot. Red dots are fine for Minute of Man, not precision.

The LPVO was the right tool for the job in this scenario.

Red dots are minute a man at 300-500y , but at 30y you have to be able to do practicaly eyesocket shot not just headshot

 

[Birddog6424]

Red dots are minute a man at 300-500y , but at 30y you have to be able to do practicaly eyesocket shot not just headshot

I ran a red dot in Heavy Metal 3 Gun for years. 308 gasser, 1911 in 45ACP and pump 12 GA. I loved shooting in that division.

Red dots are well out of their league at 300 and 500 yards. Even the BDC version I ran, let alone just a plain dot. Just because you can get hits on big plates at those distances doesn't mean it's not a crappy tool for the job. I'd rather have adjustable irons. At 100 yards plus, an LPVO blows a dot out of the water.

 

[Texaslongshot]

If you can't make a headshot at 25-30y (case in the video) with a red dot , LPVO will only hinder you further, fiddling with parallax and magnification

The irony is what you claim didn’t happen. He dialed mag. No parallax adjustment and smoked the guy.

 

[FredHammer]

The irony is what you claim didn’t happen. He dialed mag. No parallax adjustment and smoked the guy.

I always put a fresh battery in too...

 

[shoobe01]

Just to make sure the argument is straight, I've never seen anyone legitimately pose this as RDS vs LPVO. It's

RDS + Magnifier
vs
Daylight-bright LPVO

(And then the Elcan Spectre DR guys come in also!)

A flip-to-side magnifier (or similar, the flip down like Unity 1.93) gives you at least the speed of a nice big switchview lever on an LPVO and the magnification for ID, for picking out heads or partially visible targets.

Cost and weight of the two are similar.

Everything has parallax. Yes, even RDSs. At the ranges and precision we expect, with enough training to put your eye the same place, it's minimal.

It is a pretty straight tradeoff. Do you want:

• Fastest possible close range work (RDS)
• Extra precision of smaller reticle, holdovers, etc (LPVO)

There are also personal "opinions" (actually variation in how people's eyes and brains work), there are tangents like piggyback RDS (or as Greyswandir said, offset I suppose) for close range and giving the LPVO (or Spectre) universally good passive NV capability (only when piggyback, not to side).

 

[mrtoyz]

I run a little of everything. Platform dependent.
I’ve found that a dot with a magnifier takes roughly the same amount of time to “adjust” as an LPVO. I prefer LPVO on 14.5-16”. I am having more of an issue deciding on which to run on 11.5” 5.56. Been running dots. 11.5” 556 are perfectly capable of 300yd accuracy and good tactical energy. Leaning toward small and light LPVO’s but it feels odd.

 

[shoobe01]

I mostly do RDS+magnifier, to good effect. Never go to war but have used it FOF at even a couple hundred yards so got to try it on actual people and through woods etc.

I've happened into a perfectly good and modern daylight bright 1-6 and have for a few months been running it on my 8" 9mm for IDPA et al to see the hardest-to-me condition, close range. It's pretty close to plain RDS at 1x, and reticles can help when clever (this is a ring-dot of sorts). I am not sure I hate it even there, and yes very much it feels odd, it's half the length of the whole gun at that point!

 

[CaptArab]

This discussion keeps gun forums alive and never goes away. Broke the illumation knob off my trusty swfa 1-6hd yesterday on my 12.5 middy.

Slapped an unused Aimpoint pro + holosun 3x on there. It just ain't the same for country stuff, 200 yard foxes and groundhogs, deer headshot. I might try and make it work but dang i wish they didn't discontinue that optic. Tactical possum operators such as myself demand precision when keeping the henhouse safe.

The lpvo market is just super overwhelming. Leaning trijicon this time around but would love an nx8.

 

[Mr.BR]

The irony is what you claim didn’t happen. He dialed mag. No parallax adjustment and smoked the guy.

Ok for a moment i taught we are on a ''Snipershide'' not ''Uvalde Donuts & Cops'' forum under ''25y group therapy '' section

Where did i claim it didn't happen?

Just to put in perspective the whole head shot at 25-30y red dot or LPVO , hardly matters

Red dot at 25y , o shit where is my LVPO !!

 

[Texaslongshot]

Just to make sure the argument is straight, I've never seen anyone legitimately pose this as RDS vs LPVO. It's

RDS + Magnifier
vs
Daylight-bright LPVO

(And then the Elcan Spectre DR guys come in also!)

A flip-to-side magnifier (or similar, the flip down like Unity 1.93) gives you at least the speed of a nice big switchview lever on an LPVO and the magnification for ID, for picking out heads or partially visible targets.

Cost and weight of the two are similar.

Everything has parallax. Yes, even RDSs. At the ranges and precision we expect, with enough training to put your eye the same place, it's minimal.

It is a pretty straight tradeoff. Do you want:

• Fastest possible close range work (RDS)
• Extra precision of smaller reticle, holdovers, etc (LPVO)

There are also personal "opinions" (actually variation in how people's eyes and brains work), there are tangents like piggyback RDS (or as Greyswandir said, offset I suppose) for close range and giving the LPVO (or Spectre) universally good passive NV capability (only when piggyback, not to side).

Actually when i originally posted this my thought process was RDS vs LPVO or RDS+Magnifier

I think the LPVO or RDS + magnifier really narrows the gap between the 2.

However i see countless rifles with just a red dot. I can understand that if your focus is full time CQB that makes sense to me but for the vast majority an LPVO or Red Dot + magnifier really maximizes the weapon system.

So my real question is unless full time CQB why would you have just a red dot?

 

[FredHammer]

Ok for a moment i taught we are on a ''Snipershide'' not ''Uvalde Donuts & Cops'' forum under ''25y group therapy '' section

Where did i claim it didn't happen?

Just to put in perspective the whole head shot at 25-30y red dot or LPVO , hardly matters

Red dot at 25y , o shit where is my LVPO !!

Snipershide. The place a keyboard commando will clown on a guy for dialing a little mag to shoot a bad guy to save a baby...fucking classic. Dude, go shoot more, pretend to be an expert less.

 

[tucaz]

This discussion keeps gun forums alive and never goes away. Broke the illumation knob off my trusty swfa 1-6hd yesterday on my 12.5 middy.

Slapped an unused Aimpoint pro + holosun 3x on there. It just ain't the same for country stuff, 200 yard foxes and groundhogs, deer headshot. I might try and make it work but dang i wish they didn't discontinue that optic. Tactical possum operators such as myself demand precision when keeping the henhouse safe.

The lpvo market is just super overwhelming. Leaning trijicon this time around but would love an nx8.

the TR25 is a fantastic scope. super clear and great eye relief. its probably not a perfect 1x because i have some cross eye dominance and at 1x i get a little double vision as my eyes fight about it.

the VX6HD 1-6x worked better for me and my "issue" lol

otherwise i would have kept the TR25

 

[FredHammer]

the TR25 is a fantastic scope. super clear and great eye relief. its probably not a perfect 1x because i have some cross eye dominance and at 1x i get a little double vision as my eyes fight about it.

the VX6HD 1-6x worked better for me and my "issue" lol

otherwise i would have kept the TR25

My VX6 1-6x had disappointing 1X parallax close range. Like no way would I clear a house with it.
The Vortex Gen 2 HD 1-6 was better in that regard, but heavy. JM reticle.
Burris XTRII 1-6 FFP. I learned never to get FFP in an LPVO after this one. It was circle dot reticle, but the dot was too small and the circle too big at 1X for my likes.
Burris XTR II 1-8 dual plane reticle. Brilliant idea. The reticle tree is FFP, but the horseshoe dot/also illuminated stays SFP. I don't know why this dual plane hasn't caught on more. I still have this LPVO, but it's flaking the anodizing off the inside of the tube and putting black flakes in the sight pic. I already returned it to Burris once to have it purged, but it is at it again. I am trying to live with it since it is a discontinued model and I know the response will be replacement. Don't want that!

Aimpoint Comp M2 from 1999 is still on of my RDs. I've since gone Holosun 510C with 3X magnifier. Totally impressed with the 510C. That magnifier glass clarity looks like Swarovski made it. LOL

 

[tucaz]

My VX6 1-6x had disappointing 1X parallax close range. Like no way would I clear a house with it.
The Vortex Gen 2 HD 1-6 was better in that regard, but heavy. JM reticle.
Burris XTRII 1-6 FFP. I learned never to get FFP in an LPVO after this one. It was circle dot reticle, but the dot was too small and the circle too big at 1X for my likes.
Burris XTR II 1-8 dual plane reticle. Brilliant idea. The reticle tree is FFP, but the horseshoe dot/also illuminated stays SFP. I don't know why this dual plane hasn't caught on more. I still have this LPVO, but it's flaking the anodizing off the inside of the tube and putting black flakes in the sight pic. I already returned it to Burris once to have it purged, but it is at it again. I am trying to live with it since it is a discontinued model and I know the response will be replacement. Don't want that!

Aimpoint Comp M2 from 1999 is still on of my RDs. I've since gone Holosun 510C with 3X magnifier. Totally impressed with the 510C. That magnifier glass clarity looks like Swarovski made it. LOL

lucky for me i have no intentions of clearing a house but will explore that claim.

edit; so you were off by feet and inside distances? like 10-20 feet?

 

[FredHammer]

lucky for me i have no intentions of clearing a house but will explore that claim.

edit; so you were off by feet and inside distances? like 10-20 feet?

Like, not head shot inspiring!

 

[shoobe01]

...So my real question is unless full time CQB why would you have just a red dot?

All I can say is: Yes.

I mean, there are still whole agencies who zero carbines at 7 (not kidding, not a typo) yards so some people cannot be gotten to. But for those serious about threats they may have to address: yes. RDS only is for those who are happy they finally shot their carbine at "long range" and show off their 100 yd groups.

Like, even specialists like VBSS teams have at least /some/ guys with LPVOs or magnifiers as no matter how tiny and cramped the inside of a ship is, there can be longer holds and hallways, and low-percentage shots.

 

[FredHammer]

All I can say is: Yes.

I mean, there are still whole agencies who zero carbines at 7 (not kidding, not a typo) yards so some people cannot be gotten to. But for those serious about threats they may have to address: yes. RDS only is for those who are happy they finally shot their carbine at "long range" and show off their 100 yd groups.

Like, even specialists like VBSS teams have at least /some/ guys with LPVOs or magnifiers as no matter how tiny and cramped the inside of a ship is, there can be longer holds and hallways, and low-percentage shots.

I'll add to this RD solo/bareback mount for running targets. Shooting shit on the run at distance with magnification, or too much mag really, fucks up the sight pic and acquiring multiple targets.

Prior to RD we were taught to CQB by looking just over the FSP. RD came on scene and holy shit made a great difference. CQB with anything with an eye box sucks compared to RD.

 

[koshkin]

Interesting discussion. I am neither LE nor military, but I have seen a scope or two here and there.
All of these solutions have their place and if the guy pulling the trigger knows what he is doing, he'll either choose the right tool for the job or make do with what he has.
I think Jeff Gurwitch addressed the "Why LPVO" question very nicely a few years ago when he baiscally said that it is the right scope for when you do not know what you might be facing. He does run it with an offset red dot.
I am kinda with him on that and I tend to run both LPVOs and prismatics with some sort of an offset or piggybacked red dot sight.
Red dot sight only, for me, is mostly appropriate on a dedicated "indoors" gun. Outside of that application, I like the idea of have a little magnification available.
The biggest advantages of having a little magnification at moderate distances do not get talked about a whole lot. At longer distances, we all understand how an etched reticle with holdovers helps. At moderate distances, it is not so much about placing the shot, but rather about target identification and low light performance followed by the ability to aim very precisely. This last one start getting more important as you get older and the dot on the RDS stops looking sharp. It does not make much difference for speed, but it does for precision.

ILya

 

[howler]

If you can't make a headshot at 25-30y (case in the video) with a red dot , LPVO will only hinder you further, fiddling with parallax and magnification

LPVOs are fixed parallax lmao…

 

[dms416]

Ok for a moment i taught we are on a ''Snipershide'' not ''Uvalde Donuts & Cops'' forum under ''25y group therapy '' section

Where did i claim it didn't happen?

Just to put in perspective the whole head shot at 25-30y red dot or LPVO , hardly matters

Red dot at 25y , o shit where is my LVPO !!

"Tell me you're a flat-range-only guy without telling me you're a flat-range-only guy"

Chuck pretty much nails it here:


Save for 1x dude who was suicidal and holding a gun under his chin in his driveway for a few hours, in 15 years of LE, I've never had someone standing in the fashion as your buddy pictured above...in the middle of nowhere, full profile squared to you. Even our suicidal dude was pacing/moving.

In 2015, literally had a similar situation as Chuck describes where suspect said he tossed his gun but he was going through a lot of trouble always keeping one hand out of view. Caught a glimpse of only some stainless steel for about 1/2 a second through my optic. I was less than 35y away.

 

[jeffl838]

I think a better argument against a scope is that scopes break more often than RDS + magnifier

Reliability aside they both punch the 25m-300m ticket just fine, with RDS arguably having slight advantage at 25m and in

Folks that cite 3 gun shooters using razors as scope > rds+mag always forget to mention that rds+mag was illegal in tac ops when the razor was getting popular... that and the razors break all the time

 

[FredHammer]

LPVOs are fixed parallax lmao…

I couldn't even with him before this point...

 

[FredHammer]

I remember I lightbulb went on in my head when the tactical scientists in the LE sector taught this about hostage situations:
You encounter a bad guy with a weapon holding a hostage... that bad subject is "dead on the hoof" so to speak. "Bought and paid for" was their phrase. That subject has a shield and will eventually use their weapon against you and then the hostage. I want to say the average time for a hostage taker going lethal when confronted by police was like max 1-2 mins. I was really glad to hear the movie bullshit of Mexican stand-off, verbal judo, soft talk was out the fucking window in the response to these situations. So, if you are a lone officer dealing with the hostage scenario the best response is to just shoot the motherfucker as quickly as possible. A really inventive and effective strategy with two or more officers is to "Walk the line". Basically each officer walks opposite each other and parallel while both yelling at the bad guy, "Look at me!" As the officers get wider or further apart from one another the bad guy has to keep turning and a shot will present to one of the two officers. I'm talking a 5-7 second maneuver here.

 

[Cutout]

With most LPVOs having parallax fixed between 100 and 200 yds, that gives ~1 inch of potential parallax error at 25 yards. Is an inch enough to matter? IDK. Probably not. But it seems a bit silly to me to argue that an inch matters so much that you can't trust a red dot at 25 yards, while at the same time arguing that an inch of parallax error isn't relevant to the conversation.

 

[FredHammer]

Interesting discussion. I am neither LE nor military, but I have seen a scope or two here and there.
All of these solutions have their place and if the guy pulling the trigger knows what he is doing, he'll either choose the right tool for the job or make do with what he has.
I think Jeff Gurwitch addressed the "Why LPVO" question very nicely a few years ago when he baiscally said that it is the right scope for when you do not know what you might be facing. He does run it with an offset red dot.
I am kinda with him on that and I tend to run both LPVOs and prismatics with some sort of an offset or piggybacked red dot sight.
Red dot sight only, for me, is mostly appropriate on a dedicated "indoors" gun. Outside of that application, I like the idea of have a little magnification available.
The biggest advantages of having a little magnification at moderate distances do not get talked about a whole lot. At longer distances, we all understand how an etched reticle with holdovers helps. At moderate distances, it is not so much about placing the shot, but rather about target identification and low light performance followed by the ability to aim very precisely. This last one start getting more important as you get older and the dot on the RDS stops looking sharp. It does not make much difference for speed, but it does for precision.

ILya

This is why QD attachment mounts are so handy. I personally use Laure Tactical mounts. The return to zero is balls on and one rifle can take on the eyes it needs for the job. In my 20-30s I could run a 4MOA Aimpoint and head shoot an IPSC plate at 400yds no problems. Then I got old and got astigmatism and now need a magnified something so the dot doesn't turn into 3-4 dots. LOL. The most adventurous shit I do now is hunt hogs in NW Texas, canyons and open fields. Canyons get the Holosun 3X combo. Stalk with the RD and if I don't jump hogs, I flip the 3X on. Open fields I have the LPVO where the mag reigns supreme.

Then we can rabbit trail into why a SFP scope is better for hunting. My FFPs have reticles are only visible at 12X-15X and I typically shoot 20X on fun IPSC target long range days. If I were ambushing a feeder and had time to acquire with my FFPs hell yeah I would use them, but that is not the typical scenario.

 

[MarshallDodge]

The officer obviously felt better about the shot after turning up the magnification.

I've got dots but I'm an LPVO guy, mainly because of my astigmatism. Most of the time I shoot small things with my AR at rifle distances, where a dot just doesn't get it done.

 

[tucaz]

With most LPVOs having parallax fixed between 100 and 200 yds, that gives ~1 inch of potential parallax error at 25 yards. Is an inch enough to matter? IDK. Probably not. But it seems a bit silly to me to argue that an inch matters so much that you can't trust a red dot at 25 yards, while at the same time arguing that an inch of parallax error isn't relevant to the conversation.

some RD’s are worse that others though, right?

thanks for pointing that out.

this reminds me of the big test someone did when aimpoint came out with the new mirco’s.

i have a couple mepro m21’s that i need to test this out on, along with my vx6. i always try to have proper head position but know that isnt always possible.

 

[ToddM]

Not an operator, didn't stay at a holiday inn, haven't had to shoot someone in 50 years, don't anticipate ever needing to.

There's also field of view, and this fits somewhat into your own brain/personal like/dislike, but for me on reason I really like LVPO's is some at least tend to have a much less distracting "image footprint" than the housing/frame of red dot sights, allowing for more field of view with less obstruction. It's probably why for a long time I liked the Eotechs, big open window with not much "frame" to see. Even though I shoot everything both eyes open, my brain hates having a ton of "optic" in my field of view. Plus as I've gotten older the red dot sights, probably due to some astigmatism, the dot is not as crisp as it was 20 years ago for me.

I'm not really opposed to either though, I'd happily run an Eotech etc. with a magnifier. I can see the value of something like an RMR from a durability/low profile factor and I do run them on a couple guns, but the optical distortion on them is horrendous and again for some reason my brain does not like looking through a "small" window with lots of distortion and frame. I can do it, my brain just doesn't like it.

One thing that's kept me away from trying a red dot/magnifier combo is it seems like every person I run into with one either complains that the dot gets messed up with the magnifier, or it has other issues, mount problems, etc. They seem like they are always fiddling with them to get them to work with good optical quality. Maybe they are just buying cheaper/junk ones too.

 

[FredHammer]

Plus as I've gotten older the red dot sights, probably due to some astigmatism, the dot is not as crisp as it was 20 years ago for me.

LOL, JOIN THE CLUB!

One thing that's kept me away from trying a red dot/magnifier combo is it seems like every person I run into with one either complains that the dot gets messed up with the magnifier, or it has other issues, mount problems, etc. They seem like they are always fiddling with them to get them to work with good optical quality. Maybe they are just buying cheaper/junk ones too.

Try the Holosun 510C 3X magnifier combo. You can beat me with a wiffle ball bat if you don't like it! I've got a few and recommend them to others. One combo equipped rifle took a hop off the SXS hitting a washout rut at 35mph. Saw that daggum rifle bouncing all over hell down the road. The optics took some hits as indicated by the scratches. I didn't imagine it would maintain zero after that, but it did. I couldn't believe it.

 

[tucaz]

Not an operator, didn't stay at a holiday inn, haven't had to shoot someone in 50 years, don't anticipate ever needing to.

There's also field of view, and this fits somewhat into your own brain/personal like/dislike, but for me on reason I really like LVPO's is some at least tend to have a much less distracting "image footprint" than the housing/frame of red dot sights, allowing for more field of view with less obstruction. It's probably why for a long time I liked the Eotechs, big open window with not much "frame" to see. Even though I shoot everything both eyes open, my brain hates having a ton of "optic" in my field of view. Plus as I've gotten older the red dot sights, probably due to some astigmatism, the dot is not as crisp as it was 20 years ago for me.

I'm not really opposed to either though, I'd happily run an Eotech etc. with a magnifier. I can see the value of something like an RMR from a durability/low profile factor and I do run them on a couple guns, but the optical distortion on them is horrendous and again for some reason my brain does not like looking through a "small" window with lots of distortion and frame. I can do it, my brain just doesn't like it.

One thing that's kept me away from trying a red dot/magnifier combo is it seems like every person I run into with one either complains that the dot gets messed up with the magnifier, or it has other issues, mount problems, etc. They seem like they are always fiddling with them to get them to work with good optical quality. Maybe they are just buying cheaper/junk ones too.

gotta agree there, on image footprint of the RDS. i’ve never been bothered by the old school aimpoint comp but this new T2 i bought is certainly not my favorite for that reason. the small FOV as well….dont get off center very far! it’ll be going away from my inventory soon.

 

[FredHammer]

gotta agree there, on image footprint of the RDS. i’ve never been bothered by the old school aimpoint comp but this new T2 i bought is certainly not my favorite for that reason. the small FOV as well….dont get off center very far! it’ll be going away from my inventory soon.

Same here. I don't like the T2 in comparison to the Comp M2. I got into a gun forum argument with Larry Vickers on this too. I was told I was wrong about what I was seeing and that the T2 was better in regard to this aspect. Uhm. that is still a hard no in my book to this day.

 

[tucaz]

Same here. I don't like the T2 in comparison to the Comp M2. I got into a gun forum argument with Larry Vickers on this too. I was told I was wrong about what I was seeing and that the T2 was better in regard to this aspect. Uhm. that is still a hard no in my book to this day.

lol….ah those gun guys know everything!

i also seem to get a bit of a double image with my T2 occasionally but i also have a bit of cross eye dominance and need to have my LPVO’s closer than normal to my shooting eye so it gets the stronger image to take control.

the T2 reminds me of the MRO and how people complained about its slight magnification. i get the same image with both, just a little less with the T2…..and never with the COMP’s or my meprolite m21.

 

[Emerson0311]

If you can't make a headshot at 25-30y (case in the video) with a red dot , LPVO will only hinder you further, fiddling with parallax and magnification

Tell me you don’t shoot with an LVPO without telling me….

 

[FredHammer]

lol….ah those gun guys know everything!

i also seem to get a bit of a double image with my T2 occasionally but i also have a bit of cross eye dominance and need to have my LPVO’s closer than normal to my shooting eye so it gets the stronger image to take control.

the T2 reminds me of the MRO and how people complained about its slight magnification. i get the same image with both, just a little less with the T2…..and never with the COMP’s or my meprolite m21.

I did migrate my RD closer to my eyes, like I went from an ARMS gooseneck mount with Comp M2 over the handguards of an M16A2 circa 1998-2001, to 3-4" from my eyes with the 510C present day. LOL

The housing of a square box RD really disappears when placed closer to the eyes. Even moreso than a circular RD optic.

 

[Emerson0311]

Red dots are the modern version of irons. An LVPO with illuminated Center dot is far more flexible and precise when required. Anything that is capable of shooting paper groups at 100 needs some magnification and a decent FOV, unless 50 is the max range it will ever get used at. Super operators aside, of course.

 

[FredHammer]

Red dots are the modern version of irons.

I'll disagree with this statement, although I think I understand what you are hinting at. Irons are Irons. Iron sights incorporate "sight alignment". Irons must absolutely have sight alignment to work. The RD trumps the irons in that the RD eliminates this sight alignment, and allows full focus on "sight picture". Super imposing a dot on a picture is super tits easier!

An LVPO with illuminated Center dot is far more flexible and precise when required. Anything that is capable of shooting paper groups at 100 needs some magnification and a decent FOV, unless 50 is the max range it will ever get used at. Super operators aside, of course.

LPVOs designer intent was to combine an RD and mag combo into a single unit. 2 in one deal. They simply don't beat a good RD for close in work though. Intermediate distances LPVOs are my jam tho!

 

[shoobe01]

To the various complaints about the dot being un-crisp to their old eyes, or when magnified:

1. Better optics are better.
2. Not all RDS are the same.

I have fully bad eyes. As in I don't just have astigmatism, I have everything. The little RX card from the eye doctor? I have numbers in ALL the fields. So even with glasses I have to dial a pretty good diopter into the scope and it varies a bit each time, and many RDS are a starburst or comma or so on. I bought (and sold) almost a dozen big important top tier brands before settling on the ones I use now. Doesn't matter which I settled on, your eyes are not mine, but try when at the range, etc to check out how others work, something may work for you.

(Do note that MANY RDSs, especially lower tier or contract optics from big gunmakers, trad scope makers, etc are just built by the same 2-3 factories in China so are the same mechanism, quality aside; no need to check out each of those if one doesn't work).

One of the RDSs I use now is a power-optional version of the technology in the old Reflex sights, so I get a dot and segmented ring (for level, for rough rangefinding and hold) and is /perfectly sharp/ through the G.33 magnifier. It can be done.

(Next I am hoping for cleverness and hidden RDS reticle details that only show up with the magnifier, like the best of the current LPVO reticles today. I am also not the only one hoping for a rangefinder in the magnifier (offset in lower left say) for the same reason; a lot of this is not technology but willpower and awareness. RDS+Mag could do more if anyone decided to make such a system.)

 

[ToddM]

lol….ah those gun guys know everything!

That reminds me of when the MRO first came out, and some of us were saying it had a fisheye effect and did not appear to be true 1.0x, and got roasted for it on a regular basis for a long time on various forums by the pros and fan boys that our eyes were bad, we had other eye issues and it was perfect flat field 1x optic. Then finally enough video testing/comparisons came out that Trijicon had to admit it's not a true 1.0x optic and it's now marketed as a 1.25x optic in the specs. It worked out for them though cause they just made the "HD" version and up-charged folks another $200 to get the 1.0x optic the MRO was supposed to be in the first place.

Same is true for a long time if anyone said an RMR had significant lens distortion, especially at the edges. It was not until more and more optics like the SRO and taller glass based optics that had flat fields were out for awhile before folks could not deny it anymore.

 

[79steeler]

The only thing I know is in this situation it worked perfectly. That officer obviously knew exactly where his rifle was going to hit at that distance because he trained for it. Have to give him credit that was a ballsy shot under pressure and if he would have hit the kid they would have fried him. He put it all on the line and made a great shot. Im sure that it could have been done with a red dot as well if thats how the officer trained.

 

[FredHammer]

Serious question. Has anyone used a particular LPVO that was true 1X and no parallax wobble within 10-15ft?

 

[RKBArmory]

Having some magnification available is a really good idea. It also seems to be the norm. In a recent carbine course that I took (distances between 7 and 130 yards), everyone had an LPVO or a red dot / magnifier. The magnification really helped to quickly ensure you were shooting your target, not the guy's next to you. I don't think anyone needed the magnification for the shooting, but it sure helped for the target I.D.

 

[tucaz]

Serious question. Has anyone used a particular LPVO that was true 1X and no parallax wobble within 10-15ft?

you and i touched on this above and you claimed the vx6hd 1-6x had paralax at CQB range. i took mine out last weekend and did a 25 yard test with my eye centered and then off to the right as far as i could get and not loose all the image. i didnt see any POI shift.

 

[FredHammer]

you and i touched on this above and you claimed the vx6hd 1-6x had paralax at CQB range. i took mine out last weekend and did a 25 yard test with my eye centered and then off to the right as far as i could get and not loose all the image. i didnt see any POI shift.

25yds isn't CQB. I asked 10-15ft.

 

[tucaz]

25yds isn't CQB. I asked 10-15ft.

fair.

so the closer in, the worse it gets? didnt know that…

 

[FredHammer]

fair.

so the closer in, the worse it gets? didnt know that…

Are you capable of walking around your house looking through your optic? Fuck sakes man.