Advanced Marksmanship heat effecting shots?

[knosaj]

at 100 yards, with a 270. leupold 3x9 optic. 150 grain rem core-lock

first 3 shots were in a 1/2" to 3/4" group. not too bad.
after this group, i adjusted the scope. not understanding the increments on the scope i over adjusted just to get a handle on what was what. Then, it was off the other way, i should have only made half of the correction. then i started making one shot adjustments when i felt the shot was good.

in short wasted 20 shots. i was shooting fairly quickly and the barrel heated up hotter than i could hold for a second after about 10 shots. i feel, hope, this threw my shots off, as i am thinking to myself, "what the hell is going on, you are a better shot than this." i let it cool back down most of the way and shot again with the last two shots and made a descent 2 shot group. all shots were within a 6" group. but i feel at 100 yards with a scoped 270, i should be able to keyhole them.

i am a fairly good shot. hell i was grouping an m4, open sights, at the same distance in rapid fire with a similar 6" group.

so, with all that jib-jab aside....does a hot barrel effect shots that much at 100 yards!?

thanks.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Heat does affect the shots, but not at 100 yards at the extent you are talking about.

You have other problems. As the barrel heats up, it expands, probably touching the stock in a different manner then when cold.

Bedding, free floating, etc. may fix the problems. I'm going to assume your taking about a hunting rifle. Off the rack hunting rifles (because of economics or what ever) aren't designed for extended shooting.

I hunt with featherweight winchesters. They're fine for 5-7 rounds then start walking. NO problem since hunting I never fire more then two.

The Winchesters hold zeros so I don't worry about them. But when I orginally sighted them in, I'd never fire more then 5 rounds per session.

My target rifles are different, I can shoot 29 plus rounds with no change.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but i feel at 100 yards with a scoped 270, i should be able to keyhole them.
</div></div>

Keyhole is a bad thing, not good. If they are keyholing you have a serious problem.

As far as the heat is concerned, it sounds like you may have a little problem. Its hard to say if it's the heat or something else(loose components,scope problem,shooter fatigue/error) All you can do is try again, and eliminate all the variables one at a time. I would definitely suggest bedding the rifle if it's not already.
20 rnds aren't wasted, not if you learn something from them.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Fairly good shot and 6" @ 100 yards, together, that's a new one.

 

[Timo Turl]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but i feel at 100 yards with a scoped 270, i should be able to keyhole them.
</div></div>

Keyhole is a bad thing, not good. If they are keyholing you have a serious problem.

As far as the heat is concerned, it sounds like you may have a little problem. Its hard to say if it's the heat or something else(loose components,scope problem,shooter fatigue/error) All you can do is try again, and eliminate all the variables one at a time. I would definitely suggest bedding the rifle if it's not already.
20 rnds aren't wasted, not if you learn something from them. </div></div>

I'm guessing he's not on the same page re keyholing....suspect he means being able to to put 2-3 through the same hole...

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: coldboremiracle</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> but i feel at 100 yards with a scoped 270, i should be able to keyhole them.
</div></div>

Keyhole is a bad thing, not good. If they are keyholing you have a serious problem.

As far as the heat is concerned, it sounds like you may have a little problem. Its hard to say if it's the heat or something else(loose components,scope problem,shooter fatigue/error) All you can do is try again, and eliminate all the variables one at a time. I would definitely suggest bedding the rifle if it's not already.
20 rnds aren't wasted, not if you learn something from them. </div></div>

I'm guessing he's not on the same page re keyholing....suspect he means being able to to put 2-3 through the same hole... </div></div>

I agree, but it had to be said.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fairly good shot and 6" @ 100 yards, together, that's a new one </div></div> That's kinda what I was thinking too, may have something to do with the problem.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

not sure, about yall but i dont think rapid firing ...no slow fire.. an M4 with stock open sights at 100 yards and keeping 6" groups is too bad. i see people out at the range with all sorts of fancy optics bolted on, slow firing M4s and can not hold that.

yes, keyholing meaning mutliple shots touching. im not familiar with any other sort of keyholing. can someone clue me in?

now that we are past the worthless 2 cents, how about we talk about the question of how heat effects shots.

thank ya bud.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

If heat is effecting your barrel to the point of going from a 1/2 Minute Shooter to a 6" shooter, it's fucked up and you need a new rifle. You said all your shots were within 6" at 100 yards with a 270 using a 3X9 scope. That is bad, point blank, so either you are not as good as you think you are, (after all you have admitted to having no clue how to adjust your scope, so come on, they write it on the turrets) or your rifle is fucked and needs to be fixed or replaced.

This video is old, and with George's shaky cam action needs to be fixed and updated, but still proves a point. Heating the rifle and ammo up, firing 20 shots in 2 minutes on a sub 1 MOA wide target at 550 yards, all 20 rounds hit and it still holds zero within lesst than 1/2" at 100 yards with the 21st shot... that is how it works with a good rifle.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/3UZ-mApuUoM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

if barrel heat were the issue, barrels would walk, as it heats up the walking the begins and you would see the pattern, this is representative of a poorly built rifle or a bad barrel, or a combination of problems that need to be addressed. Bedding, torque, etc. Unless this is some crazy pencil thin hunting rifle, then why would you shoot it that much with a crazy pencil thing barrel. It's not designed for that. Hunting rifles with pencil thin barrels are for hunting not target shooting.

And your "rapid fire" with an M4, iron sights or otherwise, is always the qualifying statement. Rapid fire... okay, if you say so, still, 6" is not good, it's okay, it's not good. 98% of the shooters at the range are simply okay or below, the fact you feel you did better means very little in the grand scheme of things. It's not good, it's okay, rapid fire of course make it more okay if that makes your head feel better. But if you can't hold better than 6" I suggest not shooting faster than you can accurately engage. Holding 2 MOA is a good shooter, 6MOA, not so much.

The Keyholing they are referring too means the round hit the target off round like sideways or not straight on. usually round keyhole after they pass transonic, or if they hit something on the way to the target.

 

[KeithR41]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Knosaj,

If there are not very loud warning sirens going off in you head right now, you should probably look to the end of the tunnel. I'll bet there's a big round light headed right your way.

Pay attention and learn something. There's my worthless .2 cents.

41

 

[Nebraskaboy]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Knosaj I have a Parker-Hale 243 win with sported weight barrel, before I started shooting slot and when I ha d less knowledge about proper bedding and accuracy improvements this rifle was my three shot wonder. The first three shot where MOA at 100 yards, after that It would open up to 3+ inches, same situation as yours. I guess I should have thrown it in the trash and bought a custom rifle like someone else suggested! Now I realized the action was bedding and the barrel was free floated all the way to the forend of the stock and at the forend tip it was pressure bedde to an upward pressure of about 6-7 lbs. I just simply sanded out the bedding and now the rifle will shoot sub MOA out to 325 yds (2") not sure if this will fix your problem or not but do not give up on the rifle yet.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

So Nebraskaboy,

Who here suggested a new custom rifle ? and did not mention bedding as a potential problem ?

Enlightening us with your reading comprehension skills ... please.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">at 100 yards, with a 270. leupold 3x9 optic. 150 grain rem core-lock first 3 shots were in a 1/2" to 3/4" group.
i was shooting fairly quickly and the barrel heated up hotter than i could hold for a second after about 10 shots. i let it cool back down most of the way and shot again with the last two shots and made a descent 2 shot group.
so, with all that jib-jab aside....does a hot barrel effect shots that much at 100 yards!?

thanks.</div></div>

i think you answered your own question.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

i forgot i am among an elite group of shooters. no sarcasim intended. i do feel i am a fairly solid shooter, that needs to learn alot when it comes to the finer points of precision shooting.

However: (concerning the M4)
"But if you can't hold better than 6" I suggest not shooting faster than you can accurately engage."

not sure where your from. but while i was an active duty marine. 1 shot a second at 100 yards in a 6" group was PLENTY good enough to, as you said, "engage." a damn head is bigger than 6". how precise do you need to be? lol. now, if i were a sniper, or competition shooter ok then, i agree 6" group might stink. but hey, maybe im wrong. -but, again i forget that i am posting on a sniper web site, in an advanced marksmanship thread. i am out classed. crap i just wanna hunt.

back to the 270.
as the first 3 shots held at least a 1/2" group at 100, i feel the rifle is a fairly good <span style="font-style: italic">hunting rifle</span>. now the rifle i was using is not mine. and i didnt understand the increments on the scope. my old rifle was easy: 1 clk = 1/4" @ 100 yds. or something. i think my problem was over shooting the light hunting barrel (def not the heavier barrel shown in the vid) and being too hasty when making the 1 shot corrections. besides if you didnt read the original post, alot of the 6" distance came from the over correction i made to see what the over adjustent did. seriously, after the first 3 shot group, my first gross adjustment sent me the 6" to the opposite side of the bull. after that i walked it back up to the bull with small corrections based on one shot at a time. i think that when i go back out and the barrel has completely cooled. the shot will be bac off the mark.

i would love a nice precision rifle! maybe one day. but for now, the rifle that has taken MANY deer will have to do. ill just slow down and let barrel cool.

one more question. and lets try to keep it simple. no answers like, well, depends on the humidity, baramtricc pressure, how bad your gun is, how bad you suck, etc. lets say in a perfect world.

i am using basic 150 grain rem core-lok, does using something like the more expensive hornady or equivilent make that much difference?

thanks again.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

yea if it were my rifle, or not one that has been passed down 3 generations (no its not an old pos) i would try taking it to someone to have it floated, bedded or other.

but for now, ill have to use it as it is.

thanks all.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Well, I was a Marine too, (note the capitalization in the word Marine) I was also a 5th award expert, my highest score shot with my 203 equipped A2 iron sights was a 243, my average hovered in the 230's. So, take it for what it's worth.

As far as ammo, has a big difference on accuracy. Better the ammo better the results.

If this is a hunting rifle I would recommend treating it as such, maybe write down your results and note that 3 rounds is all she'll hold, might be important. You'll probably see that again.

Good luck,

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Not to put words in Franks mouth, but how does the OP's post move the ball down the field for the site? Does this site cater to those that don't know how to adjust a scope? That feel 6" @ 100 yards is good shooting? Think this topic has been covered before? Think that is what 'search' is for?

The OP isn't a good shooter. Period. The OP needs read more and post less, and put the work in - in the context of what this site is all about. If the OP is about 6" at 100 with a hunting set up, outstanding, but that isn't what is discussed here.

As for: didn't you say don't be mean to new members - put your big boy pants on - he
wasn't. He was being matter of fact.


Good luck

ETA - one other thing worth noting - this particular section functions as an information clearing house for advanced topics. Where did this rate? See a connection?

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

damn, 243 with a 203 is pretty good. ew, and you know how to spell. im proud of ya son.

i was 5th award rifle, 4th with pistol. and one of the high machine gun quals in the battalion. with the 16, my highest was 248, ave i guess between 235, 245. actually if i shot near 230 i was pissed.

if i need more than one shot to drop a deer, im a sad case anyway.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

you bunch of hypercritical internet commandos take yourself way to seriously.

if you care, i doubt you do, go back and read my first post and understand why there was a 6" group. but who cares. i have an old sako with a barrel not designed for more than a couple shots in a row. -im good with that.

anyway.

thanks for the positive feedback to those of you who contributed to the root question. -appreciate the input. and i look forward to leraning more.

 

[gugubica]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Oh..come on! Not even if the "New Member" really, really deserves it?




OP, if this rifle has dropped many deer and you are not willing to modify it...who cares what a bunch of internet commandos think?

By the way, you just fucked up a great opportunity for some increadably accomplished and knowledgeable shooters to help you out...good job.

 

[Sniper1*]

Re: heat effecting shots?

This has to be one of the fastest, most insubordinate, crash and burns from a newb I have seen!

Big enough balls to post in this section with an ego even bigger! Not very conducive to being a good learner!

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Perfect example of the saying "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Guess you can't really say the OP didn't contribute anything at all....

 

[Nebraskaboy]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Yeah Lowlight with your witty replies and helpful sarcasm (If heat is effecting your barrel to the point of going from a 1/2 Minute Shooter to a 6" shooter, it's fucked up and you need a new rifle. You said all your shots were within 6" at 100 yards with a 270 using a 3X9 scope. That is bad, point blank, so either you are not as good as you think you are, (after all you have admitted to having no clue how to adjust your scope, so come on, they write it on the turrets) or your rifle is fucked and needs to be fixed or replaced. )(Well, I was a Marine too, (note the capitalization in the word Marine). I read just fine and I comprehend better, yes it was suggested that there may be issues causing his rifles inaccuracy after paragraphs of useless dribble.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nebraskaboy69151</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yeah Lowlight with your witty replies and helpful sarcasm (If heat is effecting your barrel to the point of going from a 1/2 Minute Shooter to a 6" shooter, it's fucked up and you need a new rifle. You said all your shots were within 6" at 100 yards with a 270 using a 3X9 scope. That is bad, point blank, so either you are not as good as you think you are, (after all you have admitted to having no clue how to adjust your scope, so come on, they write it on the turrets) or your rifle is fucked and needs to be fixed or replaced. )(Well, I was a Marine too, (note the capitalization in the word Marine). I read just fine and I comprehend better, yes it was suggested that there may be issues causing his rifles inaccuracy after paragraphs of useless dribble.</div></div>

Awesome post,

 

[Jo.]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Awesome post, </div></div>

+1

 

[Win_94]

Re: heat effecting shots?

There is not enough information to come to a conclusion; no target to reference, not even a rifle type.

That said...
I can tell you one thing. I have 3, 30-06 bolt actions, (only one is free floated) and a Win94 30-30; not one of those rifles has ever had any deviation due to barrel/receiver heat.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im not familiar with any other sort of keyholing. can someone clue me in?</div></div>
Bullets that aren't sufficiently stabilized hit the target at an angle; the elongated hole is called a "keyhole." If your rifle displays those telltale signs of destabilization, is it said to be "keyholing."

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

thanks for explaining keyholing. its been years which it why i forgot, but i now recall it describing that condition as well as the close shot grouping.

guys, everything aside im going to try this once more. i think i will like this forum and have a lot to learn, so id like to stick around on good terms the members.

i think before you say that i, my gear or anything else is fucked up and sucks, go back and read the GD OP post. so, as fucked up as a 6" group may be, i will try once more to explain why there was a 6" group at all. here goes. i made 3 shots in a 1/2", then...(ok here is where the 6" comes in) i made a gross over adjustemnt to the windage and elevation in order to get a grasp on what the adjustments were doing. (as i said, i didnt understand the numbers as the increments werent fully spelled out like - 1 clk = 1/4" @ 100 yards.

so, now with an over adjustment, the 1/2" group now opened up to a 6" impact area. i then started to, maybe too hastily, make adjustments based on 1 shot instead of a group. this is where i should have been more patient. i feel that some time suring these shots is when the barrel started to be effected. -as i said, i have a normal hunting barrel on this sako. not some heavy, barrel designed to take higher rates of fire, as shown in the video someone posted.

as far as me being cocky, im i just stated my history of shooting quals and such. only fact. do i think im good? maybe when compared to most people but when next to some of you. not quite. is it due to the fact that i have an "inferior" rifle, or skill, knowledge, not sure but i know that with what i have now i can not place shots in a 3" group from a million yards.

now, if you cant read or at least have a low comprehension level, FU. if you dont like what i said, FU. and if you have a 2500 rifle and think that makes you a bad ass, FU i want one too.

sorry this crap has now junked up the boards. i guess some people have a hard time professionally discussing issues with out saying shit like, "if you think a 6" group is good then your a fucking moron and your shit is all fucked up." learn to read turd. oh yea, and all of you that just jumped in without reading and UNDERSTANDING everything.....FU.

Everyone else, I appologize and thanks again for your input. i am sure i will have many other questions and i appreciate the help. if this gets me booted, that sucks.

-good day to you.

 

[gugubica]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Dude, then why the hell are you asking if barrel heat affects shot grouping if you moved the impacts with your turrets? That is not a group.

Perhaps the answer is that you are just ignorant. That is not a bad thing, you are new to this, so ignorance is to be expected. Now, educate yourself.

Again, if your rifle hits the targets you aim at (deer), why are you coming in here and getting all bulled up? You didn't get a straight answer because you didn't create a question. If you spin your turrets, the impact is going to move...simple.

Nebraskaboy, a little advice, if you are going to be a smart ass, compose your posts so everyone knows what you are saying. That was a poor attempt. Feel free to try again...grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, complete thoughts. Otherwise, we don't know what you are saying.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

the reason i asked is that my impacts didnt seem to reflect my minor adjustments. something was off.

besides my attempt to describing what i was doing / expereincing, there was a simple clear question....if you read the post throughly you wouldnt have missed it. and i quote, "does a hot barrel effect shots that much at 100 yards!?"

maybe i should have asked, how much does heat effect the preformance of a light weight barrel on a sako hunting rifle. i guess i could have been more clear and left out all the other details. it seems the addition of the rest confused some.

anyway, im not wasting time to reply anymore...thanks all.

 

[DIBBS]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

now, if you cant read or at least have a low comprehension level, FU. if you dont like what i said, FU. and if you have a 2500 rifle and think that makes you a bad ass, FU i want one too.

sorry this crap has now junked up the boards. i guess some people have a hard time professionally discussing issues with out saying shit like, "if you think a 6" group is good then your a fucking moron and your shit is all fucked up." </div></div>

As it has been already suggested, you need to relax and grow a pair and get thicker skin. There are <span style="text-decoration: underline"><span style="font-weight: bold">extremely skilled</span></span> shooters on this site willing to help diagnose a problem, but they're gonna tell it like they see it. You certainly aren't going to make any friends by telling everyone to eff off, and you may get yourself banned. Take a kinder gentler approach, and use the search engine to the lower right side of the page. There's an incredible amount of info in all the various categories. Have a nice day!

 

[seanh]

Re: heat effecting shots?

was going to respond to the OP but doesn't appear that it would do any good.

Ok, I'll bite. You suck and so does your gun. Go buy a new stick and have someone else shoot it. Keep the target and post it as yours. Did i piss you off yet. Good. Now listen.

yes, heat can destroy a group if the gun isn't built right. Factory gun manufacturers, a majority anyway, are there to throw steel out the door and make money. Sometimes the shoot sometimes they don't.

Put it this way. .001" off in angle at the muzzle can pull a shot off almost a 1/4" at 100 yards. As your gun heats(not just the bbl) tolerances change. If a all the changes are uniform, your shots won't walk. for example, If a bbl is more dense or thicker on once side, heat isn't being distributed evenly so the shot wont be the same from one to another.

Think of a tuning fork. Strike it hot and strike it cold, they can give a different note. That would equate to a slightly walking shot.

I've had guns that walked predictably, enough so that when others shot my gun I could tell by their confusion the shots weren't going as intended. "up an inch and right an inch 2nd, 3rd 1 inch north, 4/5 touching left...yea! How did you know?

If you get your first 3 shots that close, don't worry about it, less you're target shooting.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

well i was not going to reply, but this may get interesting.

SeanH, Funny thing is that i happen to live in houston as well, small world huh.

What range do you shoot at that is over 200 yards? the only ones i know of are in clear creek and down 288.

I would love to see what a really nice gun shoots like.

thanks for hte tips.

 

[scap99]

Re: heat effecting shots?

There's American Shooting out Westheimer, I think they go out to 600 or 800 yds. And the one down 288 you mentioned is likely the Bayou Rifles range in Juliff.

I usually shoot @ 300 out at Juliff, and most of the time I'm the only one there. There's a gate that locks you out of the 600-1000yd area unless you have proven you can hit the target.

 

[Niles Coyote]

Re: heat effecting shots?

I posted this on another forum but it may apply here:

Barrel temperature and its effects on 100y accuracy.

I receive the task from one in my Montana hunting party to develop a load for his 13 year old son to use hunting mule deer. The rifle is a Remington 700 ADL chambered in 223 with the light or sporter weight barrel profile (all factory and a 1 in 12 twist rifling). First thing I did was clean it so I would have place to start. While cleaning I discovered that this rifle has two barrel pads manufactured into the plastic molded stock located right at the end of the barrel channel in the 5 and 7 o’clock position. “So the barrel is not a free floater, thinks I, this ought to be interesting.”

We had decided to use the Barnes TSX 53 grain bullet so we would not have any fear of bullet blow ups if jr were to hit bone when taking his shot. I followed Barnes recommendations and had the bullets set to jump .05” into the lands. I worked up few test loads and went shooting.

What I found when shooting was interesting. This coming from a guy who’s rifles are all factory varmint contours or heavier. The first shot hit paper so I fired the first group before making any adjustments to the 3-9 power millet scope. I then made the scope adjustment and fired a second group. WOW

an inch higher than the two inches I had adjusted for. I double checked the scope. Yup 1/4 moa indicated on the capped turret dial.

Anyway, I decided to move along and shoot the rest of my test loads. In which I found two loads worth exploring for the next trip; I am using IMR 8208 and just like I had thought, the better performing loads were right at the top end of Hodgdon’s loading data. Back to the loading room I go... and loaded my next set, this time choosing the two better loads. I loaded these the same but I seated the bullet .03” off the lands and a second set .07” off the lands. This time I brought some varmint loads to shoot that I had made for another rifle so I could see what was going on with this rifle/scope combo without expending expensive Barnes bullets.

When I got back to my range I fired a group of five of the varmint loads. From the resulting pattern I knew I did not have a scope problem but something else was afoot...

shots 1-3 were all inside of a inch of each other in a slight horizontal climb and shots 4 and 5 were a full 1.5” higher also in a horizontal pattern. All shots were fired inside of a 90 seconds. “So” thinks I, “I bet I know what’s going on now.” More on that in a bit.

I fired my test samples and was rewarded with a good grouping with the two loads seated .03” off the lands. Both were about 1” So I went back to the loading bench and loaded up some more of those this time just to zero the scope and get a crono reading. But before I did this I just had to satisfy my curiosity.

I disassembled the rifle and dropped the action into a BDL stock that had a Varmint barrel channel and heading back to my shooting area. The varmint barrel channel allowed the barrel to free float. Using the varmint ammo I fired a series of 5 shots over the same 90 seconds and before you think it... yes they all hit in a sporadic but circular pattern. So, I had been thinking that the barrel pads where causing the climb and I believe I proved this theory correct. But just not yet... My initial thought was as the barrel expanded from heat it increased the pressure on the pads and causing the impact to climb. Not to be proved wrong I put the original stock back on the action and torque it down to the setting I had used the first time when cleaning the rifle and waited for the new day to dawn.

Day two.

I headed back to my shooting area and started my new test. This time equipped with my super scientific barrel temperature monitoring device, a meat thermometer.

Not the best I am sure and yes I will clean it off before using it on steaks. But it worked for what I wanted to do.

As a hunter we all know that the first shot is the most critical. A second may be required but the first one should be all that is needed. The air temp was 74 degrees when I started testing. I fired my first shot, stuck the thermometer down the muzzle and watched the temperature climb slowly four degrees and then start falling. I recorded the peak temp, and velocity (as I was shooting over the crono this time)and waited… and waited… and waited some more. After six minutes I was down to 76 degrees and I figured this was close enough. Fired round two and did the same as on the pervious shot. This went on for about 40 minutes for 6 shots or 2 groups of three. Guess what... Zero impact climb on target for each group.

So at 74 degrees it takes about 6 minutes with a 223 equipped with a 24” sporter barrel, .65” dia muzzle to get almost back to ambient air temperature. Hope you have enjoyed reading this as much as I have testing it.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

The problem is, people and companies acting as if the inconsistent barrel is normal.

A barrel improperly stress relived should not be considered normal, or acceptable. Unfortunately the enconimic model of both the end user and the company makes it so. Instead of trashing a bad barrel the company let's it go, instead of demanding better the shooter attempt to rationalize it. This is why custom barrel makers shine, because they will throw out a bad barrel. This is why bench rest shooters are hailed in the accuracy department, they will not hesitate to remove and throw away a bad barrel. In fact the majority of their money goes into barrel after barrel, which should be a clue.

I personally change a barrel if it's not up to my personal standard, or if it just doesn't give me the speed I am asking for. I just got an AI AX and the first thing I did when I zeroed was chronograph it. While I found it accurate, because the barrel was 20" I felt the velocity was a bit low to effectively engage past 800 yards. Accuracy was great, still I called and ordered a new barrel that day, lighter contour, same 20" just a custom one. Well yesterday I shot that barrel, not only did I keep my accuracy I gained 100fps over the factory in the same length. Now instead of settling that my 175gr factory ammo Will fly at 2550fps, it flies at 2665fps. that is what you can do, simply by not settling. There is nothing wrong with 2550fps if you understand the limitations, especially since it was clearly accurate, now imagine if it walked.

Look at a lower end scope, lots of them are less than perfect, don't track properly, won't hold zero, yet they are out there and sold as good everyday. As a user you don't accept a bad scope as normal despite how many hit the streets.

A lot of reasons a barrel can be off, the point should be if we accept it as normal, or just cheaper to keep her. Most big companies aren't going to trash a stress filled barrel, but as end users you shouldn't try to sell it everyone as normal.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">thanks for explaining keyholing. its been years which it why i forgot, but i now recall it describing that condition as well as the close shot grouping.

guys, everything aside im going to try this once more. i think i will like this forum and have a lot to learn, so id like to stick around on good terms the members.

i think before you say that i, my gear or anything else is fucked up and sucks, go back and read the GD OP post. so, as fucked up as a 6" group may be, i will try once more to explain why there was a 6" group at all. here goes. i made 3 shots in a 1/2", then...(ok here is where the 6" comes in) i made a gross over adjustemnt to the windage and elevation in order to get a grasp on what the adjustments were doing. (as i said, i didnt understand the numbers as the increments werent fully spelled out like - 1 clk = 1/4" @ 100 yards.

so, now with an over adjustment, the 1/2" group now opened up to a 6" impact area. i then started to, maybe too hastily, make adjustments based on 1 shot instead of a group. this is where i should have been more patient. i feel that some time suring these shots is when the barrel started to be effected. -as i said, i have a normal hunting barrel on this sako. not some heavy, barrel designed to take higher rates of fire, as shown in the video someone posted.

as far as me being cocky, im i just stated my history of shooting quals and such. only fact. do i think im good? maybe when compared to most people but when next to some of you. not quite. is it due to the fact that i have an "inferior" rifle, or skill, knowledge, not sure but i know that with what i have now i can not place shots in a 3" group from a million yards.</div></div>

You were pretty straightforward and productive till this point.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
now, if you cant read or at least have a low comprehension level, FU. if you dont like what i said, FU. and if you have a 2500 rifle and think that makes you a bad ass, FU i want one too.

sorry this crap has now junked up the boards. i guess some people have a hard time professionally discussing issues with out saying shit like, "if you think a 6" group is good then your a fucking moron and your shit is all fucked up." learn to read turd. oh yea, and all of you that just jumped in without reading and UNDERSTANDING everything.....FU.

Everyone else, I appologize and thanks again for your input. i am sure i will have many other questions and i appreciate the help. if this gets me booted, that sucks.

-good day to you. </div></div>

The bottom line here bud is this. A rifle barrel isn't going to be affected by heat and walk your shots to the degree you are asking about unless its defective. From that conclusion alone you need to ask yourself the following:

-(1) Am I willing to change the barrel if that's the problem
-(2) If its not the barrel, could it perhaps be me?
-(2a) Am I willing to admit it could be me and work on it.

Rich

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Scapp99. thanks bud. Ive been out there once to shoot a sporting clay event. I wasnt aware there was a range with those distances. nice to know and not too far from my house.

Niles coyote. thats a pretty serious analysis. but i guess if you want to achieve a high level of accuracy thats the sort of homework it takes. thanks it helps alot.

lowlight. i do not doubt that you know what your talking about. but, there are bugattis, and chevys. both do the job, just one is better than the other. yes, if you wanna drive tacks at 1000, get a bugatti. besides, its seems that most sporting weight barrels suffer this. so it leads me to believe that its just the nature of this type of barrel and not always quality. and i am sure that even within the sporting weight class of barrels there are different price points which most often reflects cost. That being said, trust me, i wish i had a nice precision rifle with all the bells and whistles. one day baby, one day!

LawnMM....LOL, what can i say dude.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: heat effecting shots?

In a way, I'm kind of sorry this thread got cleaned up by management. I thought the earlier comments by Frank were funnier than hell and I agreed with them completely. Maybe a possible video demonstration? Alas, the more polite hide is likely to be more informative although not always as entertaining.

OP, its a good suggestion to get off the keyboard and go out and shoot. When you come back with a considered and cogent report I'm sure it will be better received.

Have a safe and fun weekend everyone.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

KIMO, your a funny guy. so i am curious. what did you contribute to the thread? so, instead of being out "shooting" your wasting your time and energy posting your worthless opinions.

by the way, my first post was last weekend after a shoot. Guess what, its the weekend again and ill be out again tomorrow, shooting.

and GD it i will have a considered and cogent (whatever the hell that is) report when i get back! come hell or high water.

 

[KeithR41]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Cogent: Appealing to the intellect or powers of reasoning; convincing.

41

"I hear a train a coming. It's coming round then bend........." If Johnny Cash doesn't ring the warning bell for ya then I'm afraid you may be without hope. Good luck to you sir.

 

[Goldbeachman]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Good one. Report back when you know anything.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knosaj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LawnMM....LOL, what can i say dude. </div></div>

Well dismissing what everyone says and following that up with either 'FU' or 'go back and read my post again' is among the things I would avoid saying if you want any help or advice.

I'm not really even sure what your question is at this point. You've sorta bounced around with the causes of your problem. First you told us you had a 6" group, knew you could do better, and the rifle wasn't keeping up with your skillset. The implication was heat was changing your barrel tolerances and causing shot dispersion.

That got a pretty quick answer and diagnosis. One of two things is happening there. You either have a sub standard barrel, or you aren't as good a shot as you think you are.

You discounted this by telling us the reason the group was so big was you weren't familiar with the scope adjustments and you had mistakenly over-corrected for an off zero scope. Well, that's not a group at all. You group without changing point of aim. At that point its a question of do you even have a group that's larger than it should be and the whole thread quickly degraded into the drivel that we have now.

Barrel's aren't affected by heat the way people think, its a myth, and its been debunked, on video, on this site and ranges around the world, for years. Its the same thing as the whole 'cold bore' shot theory. I find when I shoot my first shot is almost always through the center of the bullseye at 100 yards. As I get tired, or lazy, and my fundamentals suffer, thats when I start to see the POI move. Its not the barrel heating up, its me slacking on my shooting. I know that's what it is, because I've caught myself slacking on the fundamentals, and when I apply them properly...guess what? POI goes back to punching the center of the bullseye again.

Its quite eye opening and you will have a real epiphany when you catch yourself, correct it, and see how it affects your shooting all in the same session.

I again maintain there is a short list of what's going on with your situation. I suggest shooting the rifle and checking your group size again, without altering the scope adjustments. It doesn't matter if its not zero'd, just aim at the same spot and fire five rounds to the best of your ability, then measure the group size and re-evaluate.

If the group is bigger than you think it should be, its really one of two things. Either you are a crack shot and have a sub standard barrel that should be replaced, or you aren't the crack shot you think you are. From there its on you. Either replace the sub standard barrel, or live with it. Either work on your own shooting, or be happy with what you already produce. There's a lot of back and forth in this thread when the cause of your situation is one of a few possibilities. If you want help here, people are very knowledgeable and will go to great lengths to help you improve.

A little humility goes a long way though. I used to blame equipment first. These days with more range time and countless hours of reading here and practice on the range, I blame my own application of the fundamentals first and the equipment second. I believe a good shooter is one that recognizes their own limits and shortcomings. Cockyness, especially on this site and with regard to tactical marksmanship, is a glaring trait of a noob.

Rich

 

[Lefty06]

Re: heat effecting shots?

If it were mine I'd look at different ammunition first then maybe have another person with a skill level higher then me shoot it. If the problem continued I'd look at having the rifle bedded and then go from there. But that's just me.

 

[knosaj]

Re: heat effecting shots?

LawnMM. geez man, you must wanna see how far you can take this.

but, just in case your lost, lets see if i an break it down for ya. this is is getting very old. so if you dont get it this time, sorry pal, youll have to take reading comprehension 101 again. ill try and make this easy.

"Well dismissing what everyone says and following that up with either 'FU' or 'go back and read my post again' is among the things I would avoid saying if you want any help or advice."
- no shit, i got tired of stupid answers to a clear and simpe question.

"I'm not really even sure what your question is at this point." which was by the way,
- "so, with all that jib-jab aside....does a hot barrel effect shots that much at 100 yards!?" which yes i do admit some could have misunderstood and read it as simply "can a hot barrel cuase 6" groups" ive already that i could have been more clear. my bad, i just assumed readers would consder the series of events described in the OP as describe. i did however try to clarify this later.

"You either have a sub standard barrel, or you aren't as good a shot as you think you are."
-seems to be that i have a shitty barrel..or that lighter sporter barrels are suseptable to heat. im not sure, but since sako is a fairly acceptable rifle, im thinking heat.
-its possible i suck more than i think i do. since i nearly keyholed the 1st 3 shots. i dont think this was entirly the problem. could i have pushed/pulled/jerked a couple, probably.

"You discounted this by telling us the reason the group was so big was you weren't familiar with the scope adjustments and you had mistakenly over-corrected for an off zero scope. Well, that's not a group at all. You group without changing point of aim.
-discounting? i made an ok, 3 shot "group" (1/2") just high and rt of bull, by about 3".....now, read slowly. ---since i am a complete dumbas and didnt know what the adjustments were i made a gross over adjustment..."(as i said, i didnt understand the numbers as the increments werent fully spelled out like - 1 clk = 1/4" @ 100 yards." -see, this way, based on my group, i could see an obvious change in impact on my next shot. and since i had to go down and lft by 3", i figured what was the problem. so, yes, in a way, i did over correct becuase the impact when 3" low and to the lft. opps. i guessed wrong but still did what i wanted.

"You group without changing point of aim."
- no shit sherlock. except for error on my part, do you think i was aiming at anythign other than the bull?

"At that point its a question of do you even have a group that's larger than it should be and the whole thread quickly degraded into the drivel that we have now."
-no shit sherlock, becuase a couple people, like you, read what they wanted to read." which eventually generated my FU comments.

----with me so far or are you wondering what the hell is this idiot talking about?

OK, at this point, my shooting is fine, adjustemtn is predictable. everything is fine. what came next is completely my bad, and i should have known better. at this point ive got about 5 shots on paper, and i am low left by about 3" from bull. i started to shoot/adjust, shoot/adjust, based on single shots....bad bad idea. but in addition to that, although my shots felt ok, the impacts started to get weird. but ultimatly it is hard to tell, becuase of my foolish, shoot/adjustments, what was really going on. but even though i tried to hold a group without adjustemnt it was difficult and i could not get another 1/2" group. more like 1 1/4" group on the last 3 shots......(when i finallly stopped acting like a fool, and didnt make any adjustments, and tried to hit a group.

"Barrel's aren't affected by heat the way people think, its a myth, and its been debunked, on video, on this site and ranges around the world, for years."
-i dont know, mayeb fatigue / laziness was the issue when i compare my first 3 rnd group to the last. -but i say that i have to agree with most of the people here, that heat can slightly effect a light weight or defective barrel. it obviously wont effect a heavy barrel as much. it seems only common sense to me -but that my opinion only im not a scientist. but i did like the test niles coyote preformed.

"I suggest shooting the rifle and checking your group size again, without altering the scope adjustments."
-will be at the range in a couple hours. without the cocky 1 shot/adjust bs. i have shot comps, and coached...my ass should have known better.

"A little humility goes a long way though. I used to blame equipment first."
-i have plenty. dont mind being criticized, even some ribbing is fun, love it, helps me, but i dont like being attacked by people who arnt reading the damn posts. thats what pissed me off.

cockness/(or a high level of confidence) in high caliber shooters is about as common as a chicken with feathers.

now man, thats all i can do. i am really done here.

again, thanks to all who helped.

-im off to eat some breakfast and hit the range!

 

[KeithR41]

Re: heat effecting shots?

Some peoples children! Cheese and rice!

And that's all I've got to say 'bout that!

41

 

[aaronraby1]

Re: heat effecting shots?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: KIMO</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Perfect example of the saying "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." Guess you can't really say the OP didn't contribute anything at all....

</div></div>

like.

 

[Casey Simpson]

Re: heat effecting shots?


Hey man. You did nothing wrong and Frank is breaking his own rules by being rude to a newcomer while writing like a 6 year old at that. Shooters are in my experience self-absorbed. A few are kind and gracious. You just happened to step into a gaggle of unkind ones here who missed class the day they taught etiquette.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: heat effecting shots?

I've had a few factory sporter rifles which apparently warped as they heated up, therefore, precluding me from being able to come to an understanding about where the barrel was pointed. I have often wondered why those barrels warped as they heated up. But, beyond wonder, being unacceptable, I returned both of the rifles under warrenty, for replacement.

 

[MD2Colo]

Re: heat effecting shots?

As far as heat affecting where you print, I'd say that if you just let it cool between strings you should be good (common sense).
I shot 50 rds of 7mm Mag in groups of 5, waited prolly 7-8 minutes between each group of 5.
Group 5 in this image are shots 46-50 at 100 yds.
R700, Sporter barrel in the nice wood BDL.
Granted, that's at 100 and like the guys said you won't really see your rounds start to climb at 100. Also, the lighter profile barrel prolly sheds heat a little faster than a larger barrel.?

from the M110/Mark 11 Mod 2 manual, just an FYI/FWIW thing

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: heat effecting shots?

In HP, rapid fire sitting events, the shooter will fire 10 rounds inside 60 seconds, perhaps, two strings. In rapid fire prone events, it's the same routine, in 70 seconds. My barrel, chambered for .223, can be expected to be competitive at the Master level for about 3000 rounds. This is for a cut rifled barrel from Krieger. My experience with Douglas buttoned barrels indicates greater accuracy, but for a fewer number of rounds. For the most part, I do not see any tendency with the barrel warming up for point of impact to change.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: heat effecting shots?

One of the issues with the M110 and heat, especially with the suppressor is the 2 point can design.

The can horseshoe clips to the gas block and touches the barrel further down, because it mates to the front of the muzzle as well as 7 inches+ back it influences the harmonics in a negative way. With dis-similar metals heating and cooling at different rates, it tends to walk when getting hot because of this 2pt design. It's why single point cans are better on a precision rifle. A lot of those rate of fire issues go away when the can is not used.

As far as Casey and his poke at me, it seems he needs to learn how to read better. If he doesn't think solid advice was given and ignored early in the thread he should have come in here and added something. Instead he chose to add nothing but throwing a jab.