Heavy weight 243 bullets

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ACC

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Minuteman
Sep 21, 2011
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#1
So I haven't fondled the old Ruger tang safety 243 in probably over a decade. I use to shoot Nosler 70 gr BT's out of it with good success but I thought I would try some heavy billets so I purchased some 105 AMax. I used Retumbo, 7828, 780 and match primers in Win brass. Loaded them out to max COAL and gave them a whirl.

I knew it might be a long shot with this 10" twist. All I could get was about a 15" group at best. Nothing sideways but just all over the place. I am going to make the assumption that the twist is too slow?

Any comments?
 
#5
I agree, just wanted to see if the gun could do it. I remember shooting 100 psp for deer and accuracy wasn't that bad. I would re barrel the old girl but it really would benefit from a decent stock but they are hard to find for a tang safety model.
 
#6
You cannot go by grain alone. People talk about grain because normally it is related to length but the solid all copper bullets are longer, they have to be.

So needed twist is really a function of:
- Bullet length
- Bullet shape / bearing surface
- Type of rifling
- mass
- speed

The 95gr berger VLD needs a 9 twist.
The 105gr Amax/ berger need an 8 twist.

Some 87 and 90gr (obvously non solids) might show yaw in a 1:10 twist.
A 3 polygonal barrel will not properly stabilize any 95 VLD and marginally stabilize 90gr fmj or 100 soft point.
A 243 winchester with 1:10 will do a tad better with the 87-90gr specially at longer distances. There are some decent bullets there.
The 87 berger VLD is a nice one to try.
 
#8
The 87 v-max is a good one to try. Also look at the 85gr speer. The sierra 90gr Game king FMJ is even shorter so that one should work too.
give them a try. You didn't mention what type of rifling.
hopefully you do not have a low end 3 polygonal rifling. Lothar walther polygonal will work just fine though.
If any of those work fine invest in one box of the 87gr berger VLD. Good chance it will be ok.
 
#9
"The 105gr Amax/ berger need an 8 twist."-akona
The Hornady manual specifically states that the 105gr AMax will not stabilize in barrels with 1:10 twist or slower....I dont believe you need an 8 twist for a 105gr
 
#10
No you don't. Many people use the 105 AMAX in factory 9 1/8" twist barrels. I use the 105s in my 8.5 twist .243 and they shoot great.
 
#11
I'm using Hornady 105gr match in my 1976 Remington 700. The twist is 1:9 1/8th". Factory 100gr ammo shoots fine but I am having a hard time getting my handloads to group in. The major difference I see is barrel length. It's 16.5" heavy barrel with a can. I'm using IMR4350 but havent used more than 39.5 in test loads. Suggestions? Wrong powder for that short of a barrel? Not enough powder? Help me out. I'm a newb
 
#13
105gr said:
I'm using Hornady 105gr match in my 1976 Remington 700. The twist is 1:9 1/8th". Factory 100gr ammo shoots fine but I am having a hard time getting my handloads to group in. The major difference I see is barrel length. It's 16.5" heavy barrel with a can. I'm using IMR4350 but havent used more than 39.5 in test loads. Suggestions? Wrong powder for that short of a barrel? Not enough powder? Help me out. I'm a newb
Click to expand...

Try Retumbo. I'm shooting bugholes with a stock r700 26" varmint barrel (with and without TBAC 30BA), 105 matchburners, and 49.0 grains* (RP brass, CCI200, 2.800 COAL, 2930 FPS at 900 FASL/2400 DA). The Hornady 105 HPBTs were showing promise with the same loads, but the matchburners out-performed them regurally, so I gave up on the Hornadys. There are older posts on this board that mention the stock r700 barrels liking the slower powders like Retumbo and H1000 with 105 grain projectiles. [*This is max load per hogden data, but Ive seen no pressure signs. YMMV.]
 
#15
BravoSix said:
Try Retumbo. I'm shooting bugholes with a stock r700 26" varmint barrel (with and without TBAC 30BA), 105 matchburners, and 49.0 grains* (RP brass, CCI200, 2.800 COAL, 2930 FPS at 900 FASL/2400 DA). The Hornady 105 HPBTs were showing promise with the same loads, but the matchburners out-performed them regurally, so I gave up on the Hornadys. There are older posts on this board that mention the stock r700 barrels liking the slower powders like Retumbo and H1000 with 105 grain projectiles. [*This is max load per hogden data, but Ive seen no pressure signs. YMMV.]
Click to expand...

2.800"COAL.....this is where I had most of my issues so far. I "thought" I measured 2.817" total allowable cartridge length so I started seating at 2.8 also but the accuracy was terrible. It didn't improve with any charge I put in it till I started seating at 2.650" which is really close to what the factory rounds I have are seated at. Here be weird part....it shoots better with 37.5gr at an average muzzle velocity of around 2400fps....I went from 37.5gr to 39.5gr and the higher I went the worse it shot. So does that mean I'm at "the bottom of a node"? Will the accuracy start to come back around and the top of the next node with a higher powder charge beyond 39.5?
 
#19
105gr said:
2.800"COAL.....this is where I had most of my issues so far. I "thought" I measured 2.817" total allowable cartridge length so I started seating at 2.8 also but the accuracy was terrible. It didn't improve with any charge I put in it till I started seating at 2.650" which is really close to what the factory rounds I have are seated at. Here be weird part....it shoots better with 37.5gr at an average muzzle velocity of around 2400fps....I went from 37.5gr to 39.5gr and the higher I went the worse it shot. So does that mean I'm at "the bottom of a node"? Will the accuracy start to come back around and the top of the next node with a higher powder charge beyond 39.5?
Click to expand...

Can't say if accuracy will improve with a higher charge. However, at least 2 other folks on this board reported poor accuracy with 105's and 4350 with stock barrels. I'd suggest trying a slower powder. Once you find your charge, then you can tinker with seating depth.
 
#20
still seated at 2.650" i shot five today @ 40gr in wind...i wasnt as concerned with the groups as i was MV....i only got 2550 out of it but the groups are starting to shrink without signs of pressure...i loaded another 5 @ 40.3 and seated .010" closer to the lands for an OAL of 2.660"....will report....
 
#21
105gr said:
still seated at 2.650" i shot five today @ 40gr in wind...i wasnt as concerned with the groups as i was MV....i only got 2550 out of it but the groups are starting to shrink without signs of pressure...i loaded another 5 @ 40.3 and seated .010" closer to the lands for an OAL of 2.660"....will report....
Click to expand...

One piece of advice that has served me well, Is only change one thing at a time. If your groups tighten up was it the seating depth or charge weight change? I would suggest working up in .5 increments until you reach pressure or the velocity you want. Then take your load and do your seating depth test. Don't due both simultaneously.
 
#22
Try shooting 20 as fast as you can at 3050fps. My rem 700 shot the last four touching at 100yds. I couldn't hold on to the barrel and there are funny looking holes on the lee ward side of the rifling. I have now re-barreled to a 1-8 twist. Same size grouping (all touching), just slower shot to shot. :)
 
#23
Wildboarem said:
One piece of advice that has served me well, Is only change one thing at a time. If your groups tighten up was it the seating depth or charge weight change? I would suggest working up in .5 increments until you reach pressure or the velocity you want. Then take your load and do your seating depth test. Don't due both simultaneously.
Click to expand...

I thought about that after I did it.....from now on I will only change one variable at a time..
 
#24
I recently started loading heavy 243 also. I am shooting a factory Rem 700 Varmint 9 1/8 twist 26" barrel. I am getting great results with Winchester brass. Rem 9 1/2 primers, 105gr Hornady BTHP, and H1000. Getting great results at 100 so far but no chrono data yet. My length is 2.82" OAL or 2.311 to Ogive.
 
#26
105gr said:
where is this "ogive" you speak of?....and what kind of die do i need to seat bullets on it rather than the tip?
Click to expand...

Redding for one, makes a vld seater stem, it grabs farter down the bullet, not the tip, but nowhere near the "ogive" as we refer ogive to the lands seating depth, Most bullets are probably bigger diameter than most seating stems.
Like I said, depends on die brand if one is available, I'm not sure. Even with Redding comp seaters, my 6mmBR doesn't need the vld seater for 95's, nor does my 6.5x47 one, but my 7mm SAUM does.

WOW, hope that makes sense!

Now if you're asking what the "ogive" of a bullet is? To me, it is the nose cone of the bullet, starting where the bearing surface ends to the tip of the bullet. Others may disagree.
 
Last edited:
#29
now i know the lingo as far as ogive goes....checked my hornady seater die and it appears to be seating on the ogive and not the tip..ahem...scuze me....MEPLAT :D.....ive been from 37.5gr of powder to 40.3 and the MV only went up from2400ish to 2500ish...have i reached the limt?
 
#31
105gr said:
now i know the lingo as far as ogive goes....checked my hornady seater die and it appears to be seating on the ogive and not the tip..ahem...scuze me....MEPLAT :D.....ive been from 37.5gr of powder to 40.3 and the MV only went up from2400ish to 2500ish...have i reached the limt?
Click to expand...

The "ogive" is used as a more precise weigh of measuring overall length of the cartridge and the measurement of the chamber. The ogive of the bullet will be where the bullet first makes contact with the lands. So measuring in this manner helps you determine the at what length each type of bullet will engage the lands and where to seat bullets. The tip of the bullet isn't always consistent in length. I use hornady bullet/case comparator on my calipers with a sized case with the neck cut vertically as to hold the bullet slightly, with bullet seated long, chamber slowly and use the lands to seat the bullet. Remove and measure and you have the length to the lands. More info than you were probably looking for.
 
#32
ANY info is appreciated, however even though I measured an OAL to the lands being 2.790", I tried seating at 2.700" and after 3 rounds I couldn't chamber rounds anymore....why is that?
 
#34
I did...I only neck size though...I checked tension also(if it matters) and a loaded cartridge only measures .001" bigger in diameter on the neck.....thats right isnt it?
 
#35
105gr said:
I did...I only neck size though...I checked tension also(if it matters) and a loaded cartridge only measures .001" bigger in diameter on the neck.....thats right isnt it?
Click to expand...

Yes, sounds ok, .001 or .002" neck tension is what most use.

Somewhere along the line brass neck thickness must come into play. 243 or 6mm Rem brass with .002" neck tension, will have more tension than say wimpy 6mmBR brass with .002". Or neck turned 6mm creedmore, because you've removed some material from it.
 
#36
i've recently been playing with .243, should have done it years ago

much like a previous poster, 105 gr Amax & 105 BTHP through a rem 700 factory varmint profile 26" barrel, 1:9.5 twist and they are flying very well out to 425Y (the longest range i have now) 3" CTC 10 round groups. don't know if the faster twist would help, but right there convinced me that 1:9.25 will suffice for at least these two bullet types. it actually like the BTHP better than the amaxes, which is nicer on my wallet.

46.5 gr h-1000, OAL 2.780 or .005 off the lands 28009 fps in my particular rifle. tried everywhere from 2.665 to 2.790 with the same charge, 2.780 seemed to be the "sweet spot". thanks to a bunch of folks here on the hide with that load, i see no reason to change it other than maybe trying magnum primers instead of large rifle ones i'm using now.

any loads lower than 45.5gr or higher than 46.5 just wasn't as good as the 46.5 at any seating depth

the ogive (or the curve of the bullet) was just kissing the lands at 2.785, cutting deeper at 2.790 on the BTHP. good tip in another post above, it's a PIA to get a consistant reading with the calipers on OAL with the BTHP as the tip is a bit funky. i just make sure to set the dies properly with my dummy round, and trust in that setting just checking with the calipers to the mark made by the seating cone, which i don't have my data handy, but obviously will be less than the "true" OAL. if memory serves me correctly, 2.670 to the mark.

here's part of my journey with .243 & 105grains, maybe you can get something out of it: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...-depot/203140-hornady-243-105-grain-bthp.html

neck sizing also, full lengthing every 3rd time the brass is shot, no chambering issues as of yet.
 
#37
TOP PREDATOR.....keep bringing the info....your setup is very close to mine but no way could i print 3" groups at 400yds....I cant even print that at 100....
 
#38
and your chamber specs are allmost identical...i can fit a an OAL of 2.790" in the chamber touching the lands but I tried 2.700" and by the 3rd round I couldnt chamber them anymore.....*CORNFYOOZED*
 
#41
I have never had a round not chamber due to seating depth. Chamber will eventually act as a bullet seater (or puller). I would make sure your bumping the shoulder back enough.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
 
#43
Neck die only sizes the neck. It is OK for a few firings but each firing the case expands to the size of the chamber and springs back a little. Eventually you will have to full length size your case. A lot of people will fl size after 3 firings, some every time. The shoulder bump in theory is that a fire formed case is more accurate. So when we resize we do it minimally. The datum of the shoulder is where we measure (think of ogive). If we fl size to minimum specs ie. All the way in the die we may push the shoulder back too much. We want to only resize enough to make sure the case will chamber easily, but not to much. Plus the less you size the work hardening and stress you put on the case. .002 is the standard for " bumping" the shoulder back. Again I use the hornady case comparator to measure a fired case then set the die up to only resize it .002 smaller. You can only neck size so many times before you have to fl size.


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
 
#44
105gr said:
TOP PREDATOR.....keep bringing the info....your setup is very close to mine but no way could i print 3" groups at 400yds....I cant even print that at 100....
Click to expand...

105GR, i just took alook back at page 1....i'd think that IMR4350 is way too slow for your barrel length, you may have to go with IMR3031, IMR4198, or something around that same burn rate. i have a .308 i cut from 22" to 17", couldn't get much more than 2400 out of it using 4064 so switched to 4198 and now getting 2800+ using 110 vmax.

this may be a silly point, but let's go through a little check list:

brass being trimmed to proper length? (i'm at 2.040, splitting the min and max) make sure to take the burr off with chamfer tool

are your dies properly set?

are you attempting to crimp these things?

are the bullets straight in the case?

you said your single feeding, that takes out the bullet creeping in the mag due to recoil, but make sure your feeding them correctly and not jamming them in there.

factory barrel or replaced one? get your headspacing checked

start from scratch keeping things simple - scrub the shit out of the chamber, the lugs races, and chamber face take out that variable just in case there is gunk in there. take off the can, inspect for damage / clean your crown. a 1976 rem700, perhaps the throat and barrel is just used up. .243 are known to be used up around 2,000 - i can't speak to this as i don't have that many rounds down the pipe yet.

buy a box of factory 100gr hornady or even remington ammo just to see if your having the same problem. if not, it's not the rifle, but something wrong with your handloads. plus you'll have 20 more pieces of once fired brass.

if there is no problems there, go back to basics...scrap neck sizing for the box you just shot and just FL them AFTER taking the die apart and cleaning it. re-read the directions on the die again to properly set them. tumble clean, trim to 2.040 if they get stretched that far making sure your not somehow deforming the neck with your trimmer, chamfer, check your primers to make sure they are fully seated. look at the case, compare it to a once fired or even a pulled apart not fired case. make sure there are no buldges in the neck, and especially where the shoulder meets the body of the case. < that'll definately cause some funky chambering. seat the bullet to 2.780. don't try to crimp 'em. take your time single feeding to make sure your not jamming the bullets further in the case or deforming the tip somehow.

if your still having feeding issues after that, i have no idea. if the feeding issues are now gone, stick to what works. if the groups are still funky, (but no feeding issues change powder - i think 4350 is too slow for that barrel length, there's no use F'n with it anymore your just eating up other components and adding to the frustration.

then mess around with neck sizing later after you have a successful foundation to go back to.

that's all i got.

i think ACC (the OP) has a whole bunch of info to go with too on the original topic through all these posts, just may not be stabilizing in a 1:10. i originally shot a box of hornady 100 BTSP through the 1:9.25 to "settle in" the barrel, clover leafed 5+ rounds at 100yds. if they are working for you, though it's worth a try, there's no need to try to force a "guccier" bullet if the SP are working for you.
 
#45
Wildboarem said:
Neck die only sizes the neck. It is OK for a few firings but each firing the case expands to the size of the chamber and springs back a little. Eventually you will have to full length size your case. A lot of people will fl size after 3 firings, some every time. The shoulder bump in theory is that a fire formed case is more accurate. So when we resize we do it minimally. The datum of the shoulder is where we measure (think of ogive). If we fl size to minimum specs ie. All the way in the die we may push the shoulder back too much. We want to only resize enough to make sure the case will chamber easily, but not to much. Plus the less you size the work hardening and stress you put on the case. .002 is the standard for " bumping" the shoulder back. Again I use the hornady case comparator to measure a fired case then set the die up to only resize it .002 smaller. You can only neck size so many times before you have to fl size.


Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...

Making sure I have this strait....
1) Get a Hornady case comparitor...
2) Use it to get a measurement on the datum of the shoulder of a fired case then set the FL die to bump the shoulder back .002" then proceed to smash groundhogs at 400 yds......got it :D
 
#46
TOP PREDATOR...no, I'm not crimping..trimming to .005" over min like you do....bullets are strait...I *THOUGHT* the dies were set up correctly but I didnt know I was supposed to be bumping the shoulder with a FL die....I just thought I was supposed to neck size and go on with it...I read a burn rate chart somewhere and WIN760 is on the list in the rLing manual and its faster than 4350 so I was thinking about trying that...any objections?....I cant just get any powder....not all the stores here have a good selection.
It is the factory barrel but I know the first owner(s) of the gun and I dont think it was fired much. It shoots factory stuff just fine so I dont think its the barrel. Its definetly the person puting the loads in it. And as far as jamming the cartridges in, I push the round allmost all the way down the chamber before I close the bolt. So am I supposed to be partially FL sizing to bump the shoulder? If thats what we are supposed to do then whats the neck sizer die for?
 
#47
FL sizing is used to bump the shoulder back and neck size at the same time. Neck sizing just sizes the neck without bumping the shoulder. Neck sizing has its uses but I agree with the post above. Just worry about setting up your FL sizing die to get the shoulder in the right location. I don't use a comp gauge. I just size my brass until it will fit in my chamber. Its more if a tedious process bc you have to keep adjusting the FL die just a tad until the empty brass fits in the chamber.
 
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