help a rookie out please

[MDrimfirerookie]

all - please bear with me as this might turn out to be a long post. as the screen name implies i am VERY new and green to rimfire competition shooting. heck i'm green to competition shooting in general as i just started shooting matches this year. i have a bone stock cz455 tacticool and i know full well that i am the limiting factor in the system. i also know that i am a lower 1/3 of the pack shooter with less than stellar fundamentals. i aspire to move up the standings and i practice fundamentals and position building as much as I can at home. i try and get to the range at least every other week but life gets in the way. i have also shot about 1 match a month this year and am having a lot fun, learning and slightly getting better.

i say all of this because i need some help. i want a vudoo REALLY bad and i'm looking to you who are wiser and more experienced to tell me if i'm making a mistake or not.

i know full well i can't buy better mechanics, more accuracy or improvement in the standings with a nicer rifle but after seeing them in person and reading everything you guys post on here, damn do they look fun to shoot. i also know that i am soley dedicated to rimfire prs style matches and don't shoot any other disciplines. i view this as someone buying a custom action for centerfire as they enter the game.

as i said, i really want to get the vudoo and don't want to throw money at the cz if i'm gonna end up with the vudoo anyway. but at the same time, the rational voice in my head says "thats a lot of money for a rimfire rifle" and to spend the money on the chassis to improve my fit behind the rifle and get a little mechanical improvement in accuracy from the bedding block , continue to get good match ammo and practice my ass off. i would also like to find some training but other than a couple of train ups at peacemaker early in the year, there really isn't a rimfire specific course that i'm aware of. as i said, i don't have a centerfire rifle and don't plan to buy one.

thank you to those of you who made it this far. i really appreciate any and all feedback.

-brian

 

[MarkCZ]

Brian,
If you have the funds go for the Vudoo, that is the only reason I don't have you yet. I have 2 custom centerfire long range bench gun, I know you can drop a ton of money into a gun. Buy the best and cry once. Keep shooting the 455 until the Vudoo gets here.

Mark

 

[hlee]

No one has ever been held back by a better rifle. If you want it, and can afford it, go for it. It is always good to know that you, the shooter, is always the weak link. That said, ammunition is generally the weak link. It is hard to pony up for the high end match rimfire, until you see the difference. My Kidd stacks cci sv into ragged holes at 50 yards, but has trouble keeping it on a target board at 200. I shot 5x10 shot groups with Lapua center x and they all were 2” or better at 200. That makes buying the better ammunition a no-brainer. All of that is just to say that you may be able to move up significantly by finding that load that shoots best in your rifle- there are a ton of offerings.

 

[Subwrx300]

@MarkCZ has it spot on. If you are not planning to purchase a center fire, then by all means save up for a Vudoo. But their are some things that a 22lr trainer are not good at simulating/training, such as recoil control due pure lack of recoil. But again if a centerfire is not in your future, then it's a moot point.

One of the most difficult aspects of shooting Rimfire is consistency of ammo/groups and resulting group size. If your rifle is not capable of extremely high precision (small groups without flyers), it can be very difficult to diagnose what issue will increase your skill the most. Maybe better ammo, maybe better trigger control, your body pressure into rifle, etc.

A known well shooting rifle will at the very least eliminate one variable from the equation and let you progress at a faster rate by focusing on other variables.

One suggestion would be to find someone nearby with a very accurate 22lr or even just a great shooter and switch rifles. If you see a big difference between your groups and theirs using same equipment, then training and practice is the way to go. If not, then you may be at the point where better equipment will help you progress in your training.

Maybe a member here lives near you in MD or you can link up with someone at your next match.

Good luck and welcome to the Hide!

 

[b6graham]

i've spent all of 3 minutes cycling a vudoo. and i'd never put any money into any other rimfire. i will get one soon. maybe someday by great great grandkids will shoot out the barrel on it

 

[kl3309]

PM'd ya.

 

[Just Chuck]

With the Vudoo, you will never wonder if your equipment is or is becoming a limiting factor. If you have the budget for it - do it, (I would if I had the budget for it LOL ). Yes shoot the CZ455 till the Vudoo arrives, then pack up the CZ and I'll send you my address...

If you can find an experienced mentor to help you first hand would be a big help, IMO. Then lots of trigger time.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

No one has ever been held back by a better rifle. If you want it, and can afford it, go for it. It is always good to know that you, the shooter, is always the weak link. That said, ammunition is generally the weak link. It is hard to pony up for the high end match rimfire, until you see the difference. My Kidd stacks cci sv into ragged holes at 50 yards, but has trouble keeping it on a target board at 200. I shot 5x10 shot groups with Lapua center x and they all were 2” or better at 200. That makes buying the better ammunition a no-brainer. All of that is just to say that you may be able to move up significantly by finding that load that shoots best in your rifle- there are a ton of offerings.

great points about the ammo. admittedly, i didn't test anything but mid tier eley brands and got decent results so i stopped. i also basically copied off the smarter kids in class who were shooting 455's with eley force and doing well. mine does pretty good with it for me. but you are right i probably should look at other brands of ammo just to see what else might be out there

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

all - thank you the honest responses. everyone here has been super helpful and welcoming each time i've had a question and posted about it. i'm pinching my pennies and looking for anything that isn't tied down in the house to sell... anyone want a beat to hell 2002 jeep wrangler - ha ha

 

[300ATT]

Brian,

I have several friends with Vudoos and they are really nice guns that all shoot really well. I shoot a Sako Finnfire Range that I pulled out of mothballs for tactical .22 matches. I couldn't justify spending $3,000+ when I have a rifle that is just as accurate maybe more so than the Vudoos. The biggest advantage of a Vudoo over my Sako or a CZ or Anschutz is the ergonomics, they more closely match those of a centerfire rifle, especially w/respect to bolt manipulation and mag changes. Other than that if you have a .22 that will hold 1/2" at 100 yards and 1" at 200 you are not going to gain any "magic" accuracy or velocity advantage with a Vudoo. And if you can out-dope the next guy with a Vudoo you will beat him every time. My Kimber shoots eley as well as my Sako or any of my friend's Vudoo's. I could put a decent scope on it and compete with the best of them.

To succeed at tactical .22 shooting what you need is a rifle that will feed reliably, a scope that will track reliably, and find ammo that will reliably hold at least 1 MOA at 100 yards. You don't need a $7,000 rifle/scope setup to do this. I have friends that have CZ's with vortex scopes they bought for under $1,000 that shoot 1.5" at 200 yards. If you can afford a Vudoo go for it - I think you will be pleased. But as was stated earlier, what is most important is that you have confidence that your equipment performs as expected and required. After that its all about practice, practice, practice in the wind at various distances and oh yeah, don't just shoot from a bench....

All that being said, I would buy a Vudoo tomorrow if they came out with a 60 degree action.

Good luck

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

Brian,

I have several friends with Vudoos and they are really nice guns that all shoot really well. I shoot a Sako Finnfire Range that I pulled out of mothballs for tactical .22 matches. I couldn't justify spending $3,000+ when I have a rifle that is just as accurate maybe more so than the Vudoos. The biggest advantage of a Vudoo over my Sako or a CZ or Anschutz is the ergonomics, they more closely match those of a centerfire rifle, especially w/respect to bolt manipulation and mag changes. Other than that if you have a .22 that will hold 1/2" at 100 yards and 1" at 200 you are not going to gain any "magic" accuracy or velocity advantage with a Vudoo. And if you can out-dope the next guy with a Vudoo you will beat him every time. My Kimber shoots eley as well as my Sako or any of my friend's Vudoo's. I could put a decent scope on it and compete with the best of them.

To succeed at tactical .22 shooting what you need is a rifle that will feed reliably, a scope that will track reliably, and find ammo that will reliably hold at least 1 MOA at 100 yards. You don't need a $7,000 rifle/scope setup to do this. I have friends that have CZ's with vortex scopes they bought for under $1,000 that shoot 1.5" at 200 yards. If you can afford a Vudoo go for it - I think you will be pleased. But as was stated earlier, what is most important is that you have confidence that your equipment performs as expected and required. After that its all about practice, practice, practice in the wind at various distances and oh yeah, don't just shoot from a bench....

All that being said, I would buy a Vudoo tomorrow if they came out with a 60 degree action.

Good luck

This right here is exactly why i started this thread. I have no idea if my current set up can hold exactly 1moa because i'm the weak link.

last session out from prone i would have 1 amazing sub moa group at 50 and a couple of average ones and several that were trash. i know that most of it was me because i'm trying to be very analytical of each shot i put downrange. same thing at 100. i had one dime size group and a bunch that were meh. at 200 i'm right around 3 inches. that is all me.

i know the vudoo doesn't make me a better shooter and there is a big part of me that is worried i'm putting alot of money out there to get a rifle because it is fun and stupid accurate. i have the money to do it, but i also know that money could be better spent on other things.

i guess what is keeping me up at night over this is the following. i've got pretty good glass on the cz and it shows that it can shoot well with pretty good eley force ammo (admittedly i didn't test a lot of different ones and it is only mid level ammo). i have no idea about the trigger because i only know factory triggers so i don't know if it is bad or not. the ergos of the boyds stock are pretty good but length of pull could be better. my fundamentals and mechanics SUCK. they are not consistent or repeatable. i'm trying but i'm no where near i need to be. i can only get to the range 1 or 2 times a month because of life. i try to practice position building and basic fundamentals at home on homemade barricades the best i can but its not the same as live fire.

sorry for the long winded response. i think i just talked myself out of the vudoo. shit...

 

[300ATT]

3 inches at 200 is not necessarily bad considering the wind. Most Ammo I have tested struggles to hold 3” vertical on a dead calm day @ 200nand that is why you pay the big bucks for Eley Tenex.

Shooting rimfire is not forgiving and will help you build those fundamentals better / faster than just about anything. Also ammo makes a HUGE difference.

What you are looking for is consistency. Get to the point where you are shooting five 5- shot groups at 50 that are basically the same size. That will tell you that it is probably the Ammo or gun and not as much the shooter.

Wind starts to make big difference at 100. Build consistency at 50 so you can better figure out what is causing flyers. Keep at it. Shoot matches. See if you can shoot a Vudoo. You’ll figure it out.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

really appreciate the feedback!

 

[Diver160651]

I wanted to try to give a bit of context as to what others like 300ATT, have said about the 22 at 200 yards~

I have a Vudoo... 200 yards is nuts for anything going 1000fps with .14-1.5BC. Sure there might be a couple of nice groups hear and there, but the MOA or better at 200, is NOT going to be common. The wind so much as farts and the 22s cough..

I also have a PCP that has an ES (not SD) of about 6fps.It will put JSBs into hole after hole at 25yards, but the 26gr low BC pellet, if run outdoors in what seems like almost no wind really opens up.. Still impressive, but it is certainly not linear. Any wind and all bets are off past 100. 22's have much higher SD/ES and almost as poor of a BC resulting in the same type of non-linear issues and they show up, much, much closer than our PRS type rifles.

Just pointing that out as something we need to be realistic about.

Now, closer in where you really can see a higher relation of shooter influenced issues: Something else I'd suggest, is that you pay super close attention to if your not using a mechanical rest (BR guys don't need much in the way of shooting fundamentals), is Follow Through. It is even more important than one's zippy PRS gun. The bullet is in the barrel almost 3x longer than a lot of guys 6mms and some 6.5's.

Hope the extra info helps.

 

[Diver160651]

PM'd ya.

I can't help but ask: At first I thought your signature said no "bubbly left behind" - Thought that was creative.. But what is "Buddly"

kl3309
No Buddly left behind.

 

[300ATT]

Natural point of aim, Sight Alignment, trigger control, follow-through ... a 22 will eat you alive if you are not on top of all of these fundamentals more so than the 6mm , 6.5 or even .308's as driver mentioned. The only thing it does not help with is recoil management.

Shooting .22's at distance is also good for picking up some wind reading skills up to a point. Wind introduces MUCH more vertical in a .22 rimfire than you see at distance in centerfires.

 

[Fig]

I just paid $100 to have my Savage MkII accurized.
* 11 degree target crown
* max length on firing pin (no dry firing without a snap cap)
*polished firing pin and extractors
This is how it shot first time out:

I would be thrilled if I bought a Vudoo and it shot this well. I’m in it for about $800. To me $800 is a lot different than $3k+. If I had it I’d probably spring, but I don’t right now.

I will probably end up with a Vudoo set up like my comp rifle, but I’m loving this little rifle for now.

Of course I bought it for my kid!

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

Now, closer in where you really can see a higher relation of shooter influenced issues: Something else I'd suggest, is that you pay super close attention to if your not using a mechanical rest (BR guys don't need much in the way of shooting fundamentals), is Follow Through. It is even more important than one's zippy PRS gun. The bullet is in the barrel almost 3x longer than a lot of guys 6mms and some 6.5's.

Hope the extra info helps.

Really appreciate everything in the post but wanted to zone in on this particular part. i am not a benchrest guy. i aspire to be competitive (ie not bottom 1/3) in rimfire prs. i don't use a mechanical rest. i have a bipod and armageddon gear bags that i use depending on the situation. i totally see where follow through plays a key role. and i'm sure that the trigger plays a huge role as well. again my newness shows because i have no idea if i have a crappy trigger or not.

again, all of this is so helpful because i can probably squeeze more out of this cz than i already do and don't need the vudoo yet...

 

[RTH1800]

I have several very accurate rimfires. Winchester 52's, Kidd Supergrades etc. I have had dozens of others. Rem 37's, 40X's and one Vudoo.
Most are and have been Sub MOA at 100 yards with Eley ammo. Some exceed 1/2 MOA at times at 100 yards for 5 shot groups. When I shoot at 200 yards most of these rifles shoot 3-4" of vertical. Could be that Eley ammo is not built for 200 yards as I have heard that often. One Win 52 seems to do much better and I mostly just shoot it.

 

[Diver160651]

Wind introduces MUCH more vertical in a .22 rimfire than you see at distance in centerfires.

Oh, man.. I still can not figure that part out. I was at a NRL22 match and they had a 50yard paper target that you could normally center punch. The COF also had a high score value on the paper stage. We get a lot of wind, and the paper stage was the last Stage for me. I was low, then really high, even though I kinda figure out the horizontal. My paper target looked like a mess, I mean it was really bad. Anyway, I think I ended up with a 370 (I think) and the next closest was in the mid 200's. Apparently all of us sucked on that stage due to the wind.. At the time, I thought it was only me. But after seeing some of the other targets - whew.. I still have no real idea what to do when the wind is swirly and and up, while we are on 22s..

Fig thats great shooting and info.. Does he tune other brands like the MKII? Either way, can you share your smith's contact?

 

[300ATT]

Another dose of reality. With the Sako that I mentioned above I can occasionally ( once every 10 to 20 times) get a five-shot group at 100 yards that is 1/2" or slightly better. Typically, the gun and I shoot 3/4" - 1.25" groups at that distance on relatively low wind days. The best group that I have shot at 200 yards was with Eley Tenex and the group was 1/3" tall but 2.3" wide (this is called the 'weather report'). I also tested Eley Match and Eley Edge @ 200. They shot groups that were 1" tall but 3-4" wide at 200. As mentioned earlier, getting consistent good groups of 1/2 MOA at 200 is nearly impossible outside due to the wind. I wonder if it is possible on a consistent basis in a tunnel (it would need to be a tall tunnel ...).

At distance I worry more about how well the gun/ammo holds elevation than actual group size. Worry more about group size (consistency) at 50 on a calm day or indoors - its all about consistency.

 

[Fig]

The Savage mags suck. They just do. The Savage "Accu Trigger" is actually really nice and it's adjustable. It isn't a TT Diamond, or a Timney Calvin Elite, but for a factory trigger its very glassy.

 

[Fig]

Oh, man.. I still can not figure that part out. I was at a NRL22 match and they had a 50yard paper target that you could normally center punch. The COF also had a high score value on the paper stage. We get a lot of wind, and the paper stage was the last Stage for me. I was low, then really high, even though I kinda figure out the horizontal. My paper target looked like a mess, I mean it was really bad. Anyway, I think I ended up with a 370 (I think) and the next closest was in the mid 200's. Apparently all of us sucked on that stage due to the wind.. At the time, I thought it was only me. But after seeing some of the other targets - whew.. I still have no real idea what to do when the wind is swirly and and up, while we are on 22s..

Fig thats great shooting and info.. Does he tune other brands like the MKII? Either way, can you share your smith's contact?

PM inbound

 

[kl3309]

I can't help but ask: At first I thought your signature said no "bubbly left behind" - Thought that was creative.. But what is "Buddly"

kl3309
No Buddly left behind.

Buddly was one of the special children who came on here pushing some junk scope and then going ballistic when it got panned. You really missed out on that one!

 

[Diver160651]

The Savage mags suck. They just do. The Savage "Accu Trigger" is actually really nice and it's adjustable. It isn't a TT Diamond, or a Timney Calvin Elite, but for a factory trigger its very glassy.

Yes, they do. And mag changes is really where the Vudoo shines.. 10/22 mags seem to be hit and miss, when they stick, they are really hard to get out.. I can't wait for a COF in NRL22, that require mag changes.

 

[kl3309]

Wind introduces MUCH more vertical in a .22 rimfire than you see at distance in centerfires.

Yup. I shoot on a flat range with a berm at the terminal end. With the wind coming from behind, you can watch the round swirling around through the scope. At first, and with the round close in, it'll be obscured by the vertical stadia of the reticle. But then, the round will pop out on the windward side and, as it arcs down, it'll do something resembling a barrel roll into the target. Mind you, my popper target is only a foot off of the ground so the rounds get the full effect of any air being deflected upwards by the berm.

 

[300ATT]

I have a 110 yard berm between the final 211 berm at range where I shoot. If there is a wind from behind ammo that can normally hold 1/2”-1” @200 yards on a dead calm day goes to a 3-5” vertical spread .... tough.

 

[Quarter Horse]

Back to the OP's original questions. Get rid of the Eley Force and go to a subsonic ammo. .22RF ammo does not transition well. I would suggest Lapua Center-X. It is reliably consistent. It will also double your ammo cost but you won't find a better way to judge your improvement. There is always the rifle that won't like it but they are pretty rare. A friend has a a 455 Precision Trainer (Manners T4 stock) and it performs very well with Center-X. SK is an option that will save some money but Center-X will be more consistent lot to lot

At the range, find a guy who shoots well and have him try your 455. This will give you an honest benchmark to judge how you're doing. Take a look at the 6X5 thread in the stickies on this forum. It's another very good reference for evaluating your performance.

Training is a little hard to come by. Good shooters are not necessarily good trainers. You first have to aquire good basics. The On-Line training here has been well reviewed here for years. At the least, go to the Advance Marksmanship Unit here https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/#snipers-hide-advance-marksmanship-unit.19 The last two forums both have stickies on the basics. Make yourself a checklist and use it before every shot. The secret is not a secret. It is simply doing everything the right way every time. You are creating muscle memory and that takes repetition (approximately 3000 cycles).
You mentioned triggers. Do not go to a very light trigger. You are trying to create basics not trying to find a way to cheat the basics. If your trigger has a clean break and is in the two to three pound range, you're good.

The original question in your post is should you buy a Vudoo? The answer to that is "of course you should." Learn the basics first and try every stock and trigger you can get your hands on. When you order your Vudoo you'll know what suits you.

 

[MDrimfirerookie]

Back to the OP's original questions. Get rid of the Eley Force and go to a subsonic ammo. .22RF ammo does not transition well. I would suggest Lapua Center-X. It is reliably consistent. It will also double your ammo cost but you won't find a better way to judge your improvement. There is always the rifle that won't like it but they are pretty rare. A friend has a a 455 Precision Trainer (Manners T4 stock) and it performs very well with Center-X. SK is an option that will save some money but Center-X will be more consistent lot to lot

At the range, find a guy who shoots well and have him try your 455. This will give you an honest benchmark to judge how you're doing. Take a look at the 6X5 thread in the stickies on this forum. It's another very good reference for evaluating your performance.

Training is a little hard to come by. Good shooters are not necessarily good trainers. You first have to aquire good basics. The On-Line training here has been well reviewed here for years. At the least, go to the Advance Marksmanship Unit here https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/#snipers-hide-advance-marksmanship-unit.19 The last two forums both have stickies on the basics. Make yourself a checklist and use it before every shot. The secret is not a secret. It is simply doing everything the right way every time. You are creating muscle memory and that takes repetition (approximately 3000 cycles).
You mentioned triggers. Do not go to a very light trigger. You are trying to create basics not trying to find a way to cheat the basics. If your trigger has a clean break and is in the two to three pound range, you're good.

The original question in your post is should you buy a Vudoo? The answer to that is "of course you should." Learn the basics first and try every stock and trigger you can get your hands on. When you order your Vudoo you'll know what suits you.

THANK YOU! i really do appreciate all of the thoughtful responses to my original post and here we are several days later and i continue receive helpful feedback.

i'm thinking i still have a lot of potential left in the 455. i should probably chassis it up so i have something that fits me LOP wise and upgrade my ammo. i can honestly say that the reason i picked the force is because that is what several of the local shooters i've been learning from here shoot through their 455's for matches because they like the 42gr bullet. i don't know what i'm doing so i copied off the smarter kids in class, had some success at least getting hits out to 200 at a couple of matches so i stuck with it. and while i'm baring my soul here on this, i haven't even chrono'd it. i don't even own one. again cheated off the smarter kids and my dope using the listed fps was close to theirs.

my fundamentals are very iffy. i do read some of those forums and try to work on them as much as i can. i've even taken to using household objects as props as well as building some to work on building positions when i'm home. unfortunately, based on some previous interactions with rso's at my range, i don't know how many i can actually bring with me to practice live fire on.