Help a writer out?

Angelique

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Minuteman
Aug 25, 2014
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Hello!

I'm currently working on a novel in which I want to have conclusive over-the-top precision shot scene near the end. As my knowledge on firearms are extremly limited I thought I'd ask you guys for advice. Even if the novel has elements of sci-fi -- allowing for minor suspensions of reality -- I'd like for this precision shot to be at least remotely viable. As I don't want my readers to go: "Well, this character is supposed to an expert sharp shooter, how come he talks like a complete amateur?"
Get where I'm coming from? =)

I realize that hitting a target at an extreme distance comes down a lot to the shooter as well as the rifle. So let's just say that the shooter is the best of the best (35 years field experience?) and that his weapon can be futuristic/off the market, but should remain within the realm of possiblity for today's rifles.

So here are some of my questions:
How far is too far?
Would a shot at, say, 5000 yards even be physically possible? How far for a moving target?

What would you keep in mind for a trajectory inside a city?
Intersection wind? What else? (I'm litterary clueless here =))

What rifles are out there today?
Which brand(s) would a professional marksman choose? Is CheyTac rifles for example high quality, or just good looking?

Would it be possible to take a shot using a live satellite feed (provided you have access to that) instead of a scope?
Does different scopes have different range limits, or how does it work?

What would happen more specifically if you're hit with a .408 caliber?
Would the shot go clean through if you don't hit any bones? Or would there be nothing left of the person? Is .408 even a normal caliber? (I thought .50 was some kind of standard?)

Finally I'd be very happy to get some typical sniper terms/slang, if that's possible, along with the questions.
Please help! Thanks in advance.
/Angelique

(Also if this is posted in the wrong section I appolgize -- first time here)
 
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Oh boy...5000yds. No way. Especially in a city. My guess would be should I have a target and I got to plan it. I would make it a near 100% probability of a hit. If I were a "sniper" I would choose a 300 Blackout ( a subsonic,under the speed of sound caliber) and a suppressor (don't say silencer) and keep my shot less than 500yds. While yes, a .408 cheytac could shoot to 2200yds, a "highly trained" marksman would not really use a gun that big or try to hit a target more than a mile away.
 
for starters, 35 years field experience (assuming military) + about 18 years of age if joined out of high school puts your shooter at 53 years old.

the realistic distance will depend on the caliber you choose.

inside a city: depends on the city. skyscraper to skyscraper elevation differences and windage vs zero. skyscraper to lower target / vica versa turns into an angled shot - search cosine or angled shots. depending on the city, size of the buildings and the "canyon effect" they create, there may be thermal lifts.

live satellite feed wouldn't have crosshairs on it, and would only view the target from the top.

rifle model and caliber chosen for the particular use at hand. probably would be more than just one for a "professional"

http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-site-information/553-lingo-hide.html

ballistic gel tests:

Brass Fetcher Ballistic Testing

Videos - Clear Ballistics - Ballistic Gel Manufacturer | Clear Ballistics - Ballistic Gelatin Manufacturer

you can search .50 cal, .416, .408, .338, etc etc gelatin tests videos and pictures for "results" on target

but a somewhat less bulky, heavy, harder to conceal mega big bore type rifles would probably be something a professional would want to drag around town.
 
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If you want your character development to be believable, make sure your sniper has attended at least one M1 Garand clinic somewhere in his past, maybe even make him a CMP-USAMU MRI. This will ensure that he lives on the highest plateaus of long range marksmanship. I would also suggest frequent use of terms like "call/strike corollary", "bone bridge" and "right in there". 5000 yards is a long shot for sure, but as long as he calculates the spin drift and coronary effect properly, a guy like that should be right-in-there, even in an urban environment.
 
Bender: Thanks for replying -- If 5000 is a "no way" where would you put the "yes way"? Could you elaborate a bit on the "whys" to your choices? Also is there a reason for choosing lighter weaponry than .408?

KUSA: Arrange a date =)

TOP PREDATOR: Thanks for your pointers! I realize my questions were pretty ambiguous but regarding the rifle model -- I don't know what's considered an extremely long/difficult shot -- but what models/brands would be logic to use at "borderline-possible" distances 3000+ yards?
Angles, thermal lifts, cannyon effects -- Gotcha! What about things like coriolis drift, gyroscopic drift and the poisson effect? (just googled external ballistics) Are those terms a skilled marksman would take into consideration?
Is age an issue when it comes to marksmanship?
Those links were really helpful, thanks a lot.
 
Erud: Thanks for those terms I will keep them in mind. Google gives me very little on those abbreviations though -- could you explain what they mean and why it would make for a more believable character?

Also, you believe a shot at 5000 yards would be possible with enough time to set up the shot? My calculator says 4,5 seconds travel time -- that would indeed be a spectacular shot!

Just so I don't use those terms wrong:
Right in there = a successful hit?
Call/strike corollary = impact delay from firing?
Bone bridge = no idea? =)
 
Help a writer out?

It all depends on your story. Is the guy choosing to shoot at "5000yds"? Why? Does he care if the shot is heard? Does he have time to plan? A 2000yd shot could take up to 20-30 mins to prep on site. If he knows the target will be there for 20-30 mins, how? If the target is walking out of a building and getting in a car and he only had a brief moment in time, then he will be close as not to miss. A hit on a moving target at 1800 yds while possible. Is highly unlikely. A hit on a moving target at 800 or less? Much more plausible. A simple .308 cal rifle would be a reasonable choice up to 1100ish yards. The .408 cheytac is a VERY large gun. Could weigh 15lbs plus. A decent .308 could weigh as little as 9lbs or less. So trying to come up with a scenario with a rifle choice and yardage capabilities, we would need more context to be able to adapt gear choices to make it believable.
 
Shooting long distances is all about percentages. You have a certain percentage of error from ideal in everything, all you can do is try to reduce that percentage until you are reasonably sure your shot will hit the target.
Modern hand crafted ammo with a truly excellent rifle and shooter might be capable of 0.2 minutes of angle reliably enough to call it possible in a fictional book for uncontrolled conditions. In the real world that generally requires either short ranges or almost no wind and conditions that are about perfect. Even then you're talking about a fair bit of luck. What this means for your character is that 0.2MOA extrapolated out to 5000 yards is about a 10" diameter spread if he fired a bunch of times. Or, figure he can hit within 5" of where he wants. That's before factoring in things like just seeing 5000 yards, keeping a bullet going fast enough to not drop below the speed of sound before it gets there (effects the precision of the shot drastically in most cases, you go from predictable to "wtf just happened"), target movement, wind, temperature changes... Literally, something as minor as the fact that streets further out were in more sun and thus had warmer air over them could make a shot like that miss even if you got everything else right and the target stood still that long.

A far more realistic scenario is .5moa, assuming we're going for a really incredible shot with equipment everyone here would sell their soul for. The problem there is that even then, making that work in reality would require having calculated in every variable along the way absolutely perfectly. If you did this in a sealed environment with no wind, controled atmosphere and a lot of testing it's still not possible in today's world. Of course, this assumes the target is a person or roughly human sized. At .5moa and a perfect shot you could still miss the human torso just because that's how big the potential spread is. At the 3000 yard distance you're probably pretty sure of a hit, it might not be remotely centered, but if you had that level of precision you could hit almost every time.

For background here, most of us are thrilled to maintain 1moa out to any serious distance. Hits past 2000 yards on human sized targets on the first shot are almost unheard of and literally make the person a legend in the community. The amazing thing is that one of the legends of sniping, Carlos Hathcock, managed one with a machine gun during the Vietnam war. The reality is that all the minor little errors build up as the range increases.

Something you may consider is having your shooter get real time wind and temp information from various points along the way, particularly any spot where it is likely to change drastically like the intersections. Have that running through a ballistics computer that feeds it in real time back to the scope as an estimated impact pointer much like the gunsights on modern fighter planes. It takes all the variables it has into effect and shows you where it thinks the bullets will hit at the distance to your target. That kind of technology is already around for sniper rifles, it's just in its infancy.

I tossed out some math above, but for general reference, figure one inch added to the diameter of a circle for the estimated impact point per 100 yards added to the shot. At closer ranges this is too much, but getting past 500 yards or so and it will be close enough to be a starting point. That assumes nothing major being added to the equation like extreme exertion, moving targets, gusty wind... It's a cool and calm shooter at the range or in decent conditions in the field where the conditions are known.

Bone bridge = taking major muscles out of the equation to make a more stable shooting position. You're relying on the fact that your body is in a position where your bones rather than your muscles are providing the support and you can just relax.
Strike/Call is just the comparison between where you THINK you hit as you fire and where you really do. As the shot goes off there are an almost infinite number of changes happening and good shooters can generally make a fair estimate of where the shot will hit relative to where they wanted. This is before you factor in the raw error percentage, it's just saying, "I pulled it a bit high and right." and then the hit is somewhat high and right. Someone not very experienced generally can't tell where the shot will go and their strike/call will have little in common.
Right in there is that the shot went where you expect, no significant shooter error or unexpected changes in conditions.

In your scenario there's no way the shooter free hands the shot so bone versus muscle doesn't really come into it. Strike versus call at those kinds of ranges is a joke since even if you literally bolted the barrel to the bones of the earth you're talking about a massive spread in points of impact. I guess if you shank the shot it's nice to know, at that range you can probably shoot again if the target isn't gone. It won't have heard the shot from that distance in an urban environment so it will have continued whatever it was doing.
 
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Bender:
He has hours to set up the shot. The target will be stopping at a zebra crossing, which he can keep red for a longer period of time (at least a couple of minutes). He also has direct access to live satellites (it's sci-fi) so his "spotter" will alert him of the target a few blocks before the crossing. He doeasn't care who sees or hears the shot.

Without going too far into the story: the target has a certain "awareness aura" around it and will sense and kill the shooter if he's too close. He knows this and thus decides to take a near impossible shot, just to make sure he's outside of that "reach".

What gear would you choose then? :)
 
If the aura doesn't pick up things like bombs, just intent/people, a remotely detonated device. If you want more precision, a remotely controlled weapon that's a lot closer with the "shooter" outside detection range. But hey, it's fiction, I say let the guy take the shot.

As for what rifle. Eh, doesn't much matter unless you want it to. You're talking about a shot that can't be made with current equipment. There are certain companies with long standing reputations for extreme accuracy, but you're generally talking about component makers, not finished rifles. The folks making the rifles seem to be much shorter lived. Companies like Shilen, Krieger and Hart have been making barrels for a very long time and probably will continue to be around in the future. Folks tend to consider the newer gun companies, even ones with really impressive products, flavor of the week kinds of things until they've been around a while and continue to have success. Cheytac may be around in ten years, or they may be a footnote, we'll have to wait and see.
 
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As this is a "future weapon", I believe it would be possible now. Utilizing a 20mm rifle, with a laser homing, finned projectile, as developed/in development at Sandia National Labs, Albuquerque NM. Your weapon would need a good laser indicator, ect., not to mention you would also need some damn fine optics to spot and ID your target at that range. The 20mm also has a large enough bore to easily accommodate HE style war heads. Hope this helps.
 
That sounds probable. I would go into the ELR (Extended Long Range) sub forum forum and just read. I don't know how soon you need to have the scenario done but a couple days reading in there with note taking would prove beneficial. Go read up on how and what they do to prep for an ELR shot. I have never shot ELR so I will bow out. Good luck on your book.
 
As this is a "future weapon", I believe it would be possible now. Utilizing a 20mm rifle, with a laser homing, finned projectile, as developed/in development at Sandia National Labs, Albuquerque NM. Your weapon would need a good laser indicator, ect., not to mention you would also need some damn fine optics to spot and ID your target at that range. The 20mm also has a large enough bore to easily accommodate HE style war heads. Hope this helps.

+1
That takes it from borderline impossible to very realistic but still very impressive and cool.
 
remyrw: Amazing! This is what I was looking for -- Thank you very much. A 10" diameter in spread isn't very much is it? That's about the width of a torso.

It is a special bullet for a very special target -- A bomb simply would not work on this target. And even if blowing up the target remotely was an option for the story, it would hardly make for a very interesting read in my eyes! =)


pawprint2:
I'll check it out, thanks for the heads up!
 
Just keep in mind, that hypothetical 10" spread is before variables like changing winds, temps, visibility... Just seeing something clearly enough is very tough at that range, the haze of the atmosphere starts obscuring details. Some of the top shooters in the world, shooting the best equipment they can get, win matches with 7+" groups at 1000 yards. So using that for real world numbers you've got over 35" of spread at 5k for some of the best in the world right now.
 
Is your shooter the good guy or the bad guy? Is his target a good guy or a bad guy? Will your shooter be using a rifle he has owned for some time or one he/she acquired for this mission? In your personal worldview is private citizens owning deadly weapons a good thing or a bad thing?
 
remyrw: Yeah okay, 35" is quite a lot. But the shot is still within the realm of possiblity. I was unsure if bullets could even fly that far, or if the spread would be so much that hitting would be like trying to shoot a firecracker at the moon. =)

Yes, the visibility is an issue. That's one of the reasons I was asking before about satellite feeds.

Thanks a lot for helping me out, really appreciate it.

diverdon: Oh no a philosophical question -- What makes a man good? What is good? Is that an inate state of a person or is it just abiding by the set moral values of his cultural affiliation? Let's just say it's complicated, and leave it at that? =D

He has had months to get used to the rifle. If I say "bad" in this forum I guess I'm putting myself in the line of fire, so let's leave it at "no comment".
 
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Bender: I looked up the Anzio 20mm rifle, and while it looks extremely badass, wouldn't that big rounds reduce a normal human to slush? Wheras a .408 or .50 would go clean through (provided that you don't hit any bones), and just leave a small hole.

While the target is not entirely human, the body needs to be more or less intact after the shot (to work with the story). That's why I was asking before about the "specifics" on how a hit would affect the body.
 
Angelique,

Google or YouTube "Tracking Point Scope." Put that on a CheyTac .408 and push the shot to 2500-3000 meters and you're looking at a theoretically possible shot with current technology. Plus it's sexy looking if they ever turn your book into a movie. :)

Nathan
 
I should be able to contribute to this. Forget the distance for a minute.

There are at least 3 different scenarios that affect everything else. If the shot is taken conventionally with a fully hand held and supported weapon, no matter which one, limit for a shot in that time period is about 650 yards if everything is ready to go.

Extend that to maybe 900 as possible if on bipod and shooter is well experienced.

Extend that to 2400-2500 for the right weapon fully setup on full heavy rests front and rear and with 25 or better power high end scope. There are weapons that can do it to 3500 yds but optics alone are a problem not to mention wind, corollas effect, mirage, etc. The weapon would be heavy enough that a quick getaway would likely be impossible unless he shot from a suburban. All of these would hinge on no surprises to be allowed for last minute but maybe wind. Manage to take the shot early or late and wind would be a lot better unless you are downtown among buildings.

Suggest you start with a possible criteria: building to ground, 30 second window, moving?, moving speed, access to shoot location (day, night, among population going to work, etc) and let someone try to solve a complete problem.

There are no do-overs in your scenario. Great shots are normally followup shots which show the real conditions in play at the time. Security for a head of state would have the target gone on first shot. Average citizen would probably be good for 2-3. Obama supporters, maybe 10 or so.

If you stick with the longest that can be made, it will not be made with a .50 caliber but with a .375 Cheytac or a .408 Cheytac to get the best ballistic numbers. The scope would be a U.S. Optics SN-9 external mounted scope. Weight of 50 lbs plus. It will not be silenced to normal silenced levels. The exit hole will not be huge because the bullet will likely be solid, machined out of metals including brass, copper, and others. The wound channel will be sufficient to kill on the spot for any body shots.

I look forward to see what you come up with. You will likely need a full page just to set up the mechanics in play so that the reader can appreciate the complexity.
 
If she,(I assume Angelique is a girl) listens to yall and does her homework, sounds like this "SHOT" will read out like Clancy's "Sum of all fears" detonation. Something I would read.
 
I should be able to contribute to this. Forget the distance for a minute.

There are at least 3 different scenarios that affect everything else. If the shot is taken conventionally with a fully hand held and supported weapon, no matter which one, limit for a shot in that time period is about 650 yards if everything is ready to go.

Extend that to maybe 900 as possible if on bipod and shooter is well experienced.

Extend that to 2400-2500 for the right weapon fully setup on full heavy rests front and rear and with 25 or better power high end scope. There are weapons that can do it to 3500 yds but optics alone are a problem not to mention wind, corollas effect, mirage, etc. The weapon would be heavy enough that a quick getaway would likely be impossible unless he shot from a suburban. All of these would hinge on no surprises to be allowed for last minute but maybe wind. Manage to take the shot early or late and wind would be a lot better unless you are downtown among buildings.

Suggest you start with a possible criteria: building to ground, 30 second window, moving?, moving speed, access to shoot location (day, night, among population going to work, etc) and let someone try to solve a complete problem.

There are no do-overs in your scenario. Great shots are normally followup shots which show the real conditions in play at the time. Security for a head of state would have the target gone on first shot. Average citizen would probably be good for 2-3. Obama supporters, maybe 10 or so.

If you stick with the longest that can be made, it will not be made with a .50 caliber but with a .375 Cheytac or a .408 Cheytac to get the best ballistic numbers. The scope would be a U.S. Optics SN-9 external mounted scope. Weight of 50 lbs plus. It will not be silenced to normal silenced levels. The exit hole will not be huge because the bullet will likely be solid, machined out of metals including brass, copper, and others. The wound channel will be sufficient to kill on the spot for any body shots.

I look forward to see what you come up with. You will likely need a full page just to set up the mechanics in play so that the reader can appreciate the complexity.


OP, this is your guy.
 
Ok so, I've recieved a lot of helpful advice, for which I am incredibly thankful. Much of what I've recieved is by PM and while I have responded independently to these people (you know who you are =)), I realize there's a bit of a confusion still in here as to what I'm trying to accomplish. I'll try to describe the scene as good as possible now, with regards to the information I've been given, and you guys can point out if something comes up short! Here goes:


Background:
The shooter's entire life has been dedicated to the art of marksmanship. He has 35 years of experience in all sorts of terrain -- urban, rural, and warzones alike -- working several missions per year. He is a coldest kind of killer there is and words like "excited," "trembling," and "elevated heart rate," are not in his vocabulary. As he has been in the business for so long he knows everything there is to know about killing at long distance. He knows the limitations of in his craft (bullets, scopes, rifles, what have you) and he knows how to best stretch those limits. He doesn't care if he can get away, or if the shot is seen/heard by anyone after the trigger has been pulled.

The target -- this is where it gets tricky -- is a ghost-like being which infests the mind of people. Because of the supernatural abilities of this being, attempting shots at "too close" range will attract its attention and it will kill you before you can pull the trigger. The shooter does not know how far this being can reach with this power and will therefor take a shot as far away as possible. Worse still, the target is none other than the shooters daughter who has been infested by this being. The dilemma is too close range will get the shooter killed -- too large of a round will get his daughter killed.

All right; that out of the way let's move on the the technical part to which you guys have collaboratively provided me with the data.

Equipment:
Rifle -- You guys suggested several different varitions, but most agreed that CheyTac makes the best long distance rifles of today. Let's call his particular weapon Intervention M600 (it's not a real model, which helps when trying to make an "impossible shot" less unrealistic)
Rounds -- Hand made .408 caliber hardball bullets
Scope -- A networked IR tracking scope wired to a satellite or surveillence camera closer to the target.
Heavy rests -- rear and front for rock solid stabilization.

Those seems to be the most interesting/important things according to you guys. If someone could write a list of everything needed to take a long distance shot (beanbags, what else?), I'd be very happy. Anyway moving on to the setup and position.

Setup:
As the shooter has knowledge of where the target will be the next day he has about 12 hours to choose a perfect position. This is what you guys have provided me with for this shot.

-Time, early morning: for calmer weather.
-A high altitude position: for a desired angle to improve range and stability of the shot.
-An Avenue Approach: along one of the bigger roads of the city. The warmth of the traffic below will also help improving flight distance.
-Prone position
-Time window: the target will stop at a zebra crossing, and the shooter's spotter has hacked the traffic lights to keep it red a couple of minutes for final adjustments to the to the tracking scope, as well as attaining a lock on the desired target. Then he will count down (keeping in mind all relvant delays, including bullet travel time) and then turn over the sights to the shooter for a few seconds so he can aquire the right target as per the previously locked in settings of the computer scope.
-Satellite information regarding weather conditions, intersection draft, coriolis drift, gyroscopic drift, poisson effect, will all be factored into the calculations of the tracking point scope.

Did I forget something? =)
 
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Probably gong to get a lot of flak for saying this but being that this will be a sci-fi have you considered the weapon system being a rail gun? This would allow you to modify ballistics to suit you 5000yrd shot. As for optics, that could be a little trickier. Could work up a system that uses a weapon mounted laser to range and mark target, hacked surveillance camera's video feed for the shooter to aim the laser, and satellite linked system that gives the shooter all the knowledge he would need to make the shot much like ballistic calculators and such work today.
 
Sorry so late but I'm an habitual rewriter.

Angelique, are you aware DARPA has debuted the world's first functioning guided rifle bullet? There have been a few commercially-produced shooting systems billed as "guided," but that was largely puffery referring to a highly computerized and automated aiming system. The DARPA bullet actually steers itself in flight, same as a guided anti-aircraft missile. Conceivably, that development could change everything. And it's not Buck Rogers, it's here and now.


As to your specific questions, seriatim,

How far is too far?
This could get crazy involved, so let's keep it as near to practical and as far from theoretical or philosophical limits as possible.

I suggest you consider this Wikipedia page listing the longest known sniper shots. Because these are records of real-world shootings, they represent a practical convergence of the limits of rifle accuracy and lethality.

One point I find especially telling is that over a period of 42 years, from 1967 to 2009, the range of the longest known sniper shot only increased by about 8%, from 2500 yards to 2707 yards. This is remarkable on a number of fronts, beginning with the fact that there was no formal sniper training until the Vietnam war. So despite 40+ years of of formalized sniper training, despite the advancements in rifles and ammunition following the advent of computer-aided design and manufacture, computer numeric control machining, and computational fluid dynamics, and despite the fact that the latter decade of that period was marked by the simultaneous prosecution of two of the longest wars in American history, with countless of sniper shots taken at tremendous ranges and at elevations in excess of one mile, 8% is all we've got to show for it.

Clearly, by 1967, the art of creating a bullet that will fly with almost perfect regularity had reached a plateau. So barring some earth-shaking new innovation (such as the DARPA self-guided bullet), I would expect to see roughly the same rate of advancement (about 0.2% per year) for the foreseeable future.

Which leads me to suggest that, provided your target has near-human physical vulnerabilities (a matter not yet addressed), these numbers are the sign post marking the approach of "too far."

By that measure, 5000 yards is nearly twice too far.


What would you keep in mind for a trajectory inside a city?
The laws of physics do not change when you pass the City Limits sign. If by "city" you mean towering buildings and concrete canyons, the most notable change is the buildings will alter wind direction, canalize it and create turbulence. Which could introduce localized wind currents that affect the flight of the bullet but do not reveal themselves to the shooter.

One potential structural problem is above-ground telephone and electrical power lines. At the kind of ranges you're talking about, the bullet will travel in quite a tall arc, raising the possibility of it clipping a utility line in flight. You might want to select a location with no above-ground lines, like NYC.

Mirage or heat shimmer blurs optic's imagery at extended ranges when cooler air overlies sun-heated ground. The fact that the concrete canyon serves to limit the incidence of direct sunlight means this probably will be less of a problem.


What rifles are out there today?
Any rifle on the Wiki list I linked to above has a CV suitable to your needs, although one or two might be too esoteric to suit.

I might be ill-informed but I am unaware of any military organization using Cheyenne Tactical rifles, or any of their Chey-Tac branded cartridges. Which is no indictment, either of the quality of their rifles or the capabilities of their cartridges. There are any number of other reasons why a perfectly suitable weapon might not be adopted by any military, not the least of which is that military procurement systems pretty much the world over tend to be rather byzantine. Or corrupt. Or both. Which doubtless dissuades some companies from getting into bed with them.

In separate references you've mentioned Chey-Tac and their .408 cartridge, so I gather their rifles have piqued your interest. It might not carry the same brand-name recognition as some of the other weapons, but from a pure performance standpoint, provided the range is plausible, I think it would be well-suited to this application.

We don't let zebras wander the streets in America, so I surmise from the 'zebra crossing' reference that you are British (or whatever country you do hail from still puts QEII's image on their money). So I also presume this book will be targeted to an international audience. As it happens, the sniper who made the current record 2707 yard shot also is British. His rifle was the British-made Accuracy International AWM (designated the L115A3 by the British Army), chambered in .338 Lapua Magnum. His bullet of choice was the 250-grain Lapua Lockbase. Selecting the same equipment for your shooter should give it the ring of familiarity to your international audience, and affords you a bit of flag-waving. In some circles it is regarded as the finest sniper's weapon in existence.

But one caveat. The war in Afghanistan primarily is conducted high in the mountains. I don't recall ever having seen the firing elevation on that shot, but at least a mile is a safe guess. Thin air lets the bullet fly faster, farther. At that extreme distance they reached their target with barely more energy remaining than a pistol cartridge fired at close range. At lower elevations, the lethal range would be a fair bit shorter. The British Army lists its maximum effective range as 1,640 yards. 2707 was pretty miraculous. Yet despite that, once he'd found his range, the marksman scored three consecutive hits (two on the Taliban themselves and the third on their machinegun)

OTOH, I wouldn't kick a McMillan TAC-50 out of bed for eating crackers.


Would it be possible to take a shot using a live satellite feed (provided you have access to that) instead of a scope?
Does different scopes have different range limits, or how does it work?

Films wildly exaggerate the capabilities of spy satellites, especially as regards this "live feed" function. But very few people ever have been in a position to learn the truth of it, and most of the cinema-going public already has been brainwashed by the myth perpetuated by the likes of Jason Bourne and Tom Cruise films.

If you use it, it isn't realistic, but those who would know are few and far between. On the other hand, traffic cameras and police CCTV cameras are quite common in modern metropolitan areas, and are imminently "hackable."

As to the scope range limit question, the marksman has two methods for compensating his point of aim for bullet drop due to gravity at range. The scope itself provides one of these in the form of elevation adjusting turrets. Twisting the turret to the desired setting physically moves the crosshairs up or down a tiny amount within the scope. Up for a lower point of impact, or down for a higher POI. Because the inside of the scope tube is of a finite size, so is the amount adjustment available through the repositioning of the crosshairs.

Which brings me to the second means, which is simply hold-over. If the shooter's scope has run out of vertical adjustment range, or if he chooses not to employ it, there's nothing stopping him simply aiming at a point in the air a certain height above the target. In fact, all sniper/military scopes feature graduated markings on the crosshairs themselves to allow for a precise hold-over.

I earlier deliberately didn't address your question regarding hitting a moving target. I did that because I thought it better left for here.

Those same graduated markings on the scope's crosshairs can be used by a shooter skilled in their use to calculate (and aim with) the precise amount of lead needed to hit the moving target.

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This is known as a Mil Dot reticle. It also is the sniper's Swiss army knife, the tool of a thousand uses. Before you finish the book, I suspect you will become quite intimate with it.

The distance between the center of any two consecutive dots is one millirad, one one-thousandth of a radian. This is a rather arcane measuring system but it enables dimensionless measuring. If you scope a cricket bat, and it happens to measure exactly one millirad tall (or 1 mil, for short), you know it also is exactly 1000 bat lengths away. That's the whole point to (and magic of) the mil. If you also know the maximum allowable length of a cricket bat is 38", now you also know the bat is question is at most 1056 yards distant.

Snipers commit to memory the dimensions of as many common everyday items made in standardized dimensions as their brain will store; house exterior doors & windows, car wheels and tires and number plates, street signs, letter boxes, drinks cans. Even the dimensions of the average bodies of the native population; overall height, waist to top of head, width of head, width of chest, length of walking stride, length of running stride. All to allow them to almost instantly measure range to target, and gauge speed of movement, all in their head, all without electronic aids.

If you need more detail on scope construction, read here. The bits directly addressing your questions are about 2/3rds of the way down, adjustability.


What would happen more specifically if you're hit with a .408 caliber?
Handloaders load ammunition to their own personal specifications to suit their particular performance needs. So the shooter is not confined to factory-manufactured ammunition. The military operates somewhat similarly, but their bullet selection is limited to those deemed not in conflict with the Hague Accords, which prohibit the use in warfare of bullets that might cause undue suffering, an artifact of the soft-nosed lead bullets once made by the British in a place in India called Dum-Dum. You might have heard of it.

As for the extent of damage the bullet would cause, that factor is near infinitely "tune-able." Some bullets are designed to cause highly localized, explosive terminal effects. Some are meant to strike a balance of penetration and expansion, distributing the damage over a longer trail. And still others are designed to provide pure penetration with negligible expansion, hoping to reach some heavily-armored or deeply-buried vital organ. And that's painting in broad strokes. Almost any bullet performance niche you can conceive of, either there already is someone building it, or there's someone who can and will, ...for a price.
 
Fred_C_Dobbs: Thanks you for addressing all my questions individually; makes it a lot easier for me later on. Also thanks for exmplaing everything so good.

I have a few questions on what you've just said:

Rifles -- Magnum Lapua and McMillan TAC-50 have both been tested in actual warzones, and have been around longer than the CheyTac rifles(?), so an oldschool sniper would probably choose one of the first two mentioned? Whereas an up and coming marksman would perhaps choose the CheyTac?

Does all scopes work with all rifles, or would I look like a fool if I, for example, tried to put a Leupold VX-6 on a Lapua?

Bullet -- What terms would you use to describe a bullet specifically designed to go clean through a body?

The thing about dimensions was really good, this is something I can use in a more practical sense when describing the shooter's thoughts. Someone this long in the business would be measuring things by those standards every waking hour.

Also the reason I haven't addressed the physical qualities of the target is because it's far too complicated to bring up here. So let's just stick with what happens to a normal person and I'll work from there. =)
 
Thanks you for addressing all my questions individually; makes it a lot easier for me later on. Also thanks for exmplaing everything so good.

I have a few questions on what you've just said:

Rifles -- Magnum Lapua and McMillan TAC-50 have both been tested in actual warzones, and have been around longer than the CheyTac rifles(?), so an oldschool sniper would probably choose one of the first two mentioned? Whereas an up and coming marksman would perhaps choose the CheyTac?

Does all scopes work with all rifles, or would I look like a fool if I, for example, tried to put a Leupold VX-6 on a Lapua?

Bullet -- What terms would you use to describe a bullet specifically designed to go clean through a body?

The thing about dimensions was really good, this is something I can use in a more practical sense when describing the shooter's thoughts. Someone this long in the business would be measuring things by those standards every waking hour.

Also the reason I haven't addressed the physical qualities of the target is because it's far too complicated to bring up here. So let's just stick with what happens to a normal person and I'll work from there. =)

The scope doesn't care what it's mounted on, nor does the rifle,...
However the tool should fit the purpose,..

A solid would probably end up with a shoot through unless it hits bone or something along that density, although there are some solids in development that are designed to open on impact resulting in a very bad day for the intended recipient.

Instead of satellite feed couldn't you use UAV?
 
DirtMerchant: What I meant was not if I could duct tape a scope to a rifle -- what I meant was to ask which scopes work best at ELR shooting.

Bender: Thanks. That video helped a lot, now I know what kind of rounds my shooter will use =)

VaRandy: I assume that's the Wildcat you were talking about before. Nice picture.

If you had an infinte amount of money/access to equipment, how would the specs of your ELR rifle look then? How would my shooter's rifle be specced more specifically?
 
DirtMerchant: What I meant was not if I could duct tape a scope to a rifle -- what I meant was to ask which scopes work best at ELR shooting.

Bender: Thanks. That video helped a lot, now I know what kind of rounds my shooter will use =)

VaRandy: I assume that's the Wildcat you were talking about before. Nice picture.

If you had an infinte amount of money/access to equipment, how would the specs of your ELR rifle look then? How would my shooter's rifle be specced more specifically?

Didn't say anythin' bout using duct tape,... but what ever works in a pinch.
I'm just sayin' ifin' yer playin' wiff a rifle capable of ELR, the scope should match the the intended purpose,...

Leupold VX = good hunting scope, would it work in a hasty situation? sure

Leupold - Mark series
Night Force - NSX
US Optics - Their stuff is customizable
Steiner - Military

All of these companies make scopes for the intended purpose,..
As stated by Dobbs, you would be looking for milling type reticle also it would need to be capable of easily making the elevation and windage adjustments.
 
If it were I, I would consider either a S&B 3-27X56 or a March 5-40X56 Schmidt Bender PMII 3-27x56 L/P LT H2CMR Riflescope for sale! Tactical 5-40 x 56 FFP

While each of these scope have a lot of vertical adjustment it will not be enough to reach the kind of range you are talking about. You will either need to put quite a bit of slope in the rail, or use one of the new adjustable inclination mounts. ERA-TAC - Adjustable Inclination Mounts I would favor an adjustable inclination mount because that leaves the possibility of short range precision shots open.
 
Angelique, PM sent.

Rifles -- Magnum Lapua and McMillan TAC-50 have both been tested in actual warzones, and have been around longer than the CheyTac rifles(?), so an oldschool sniper would probably choose one of the first two mentioned? Whereas an up and coming marksman would perhaps choose the CheyTac?
A lot could happen depending on the shooters' backgrounds, but in general, the military instills a preference for uniformity. To an old miliary marksman, his service rifle will be as comfortable to him as an old pair of bedroom slippers.

Youngsters? Hard to say. They do like their newfangled gadgets, but a spell in the service will beat some of that out of them.


Does all scopes work with all rifles, or would I look like a fool if I, for example, tried to put a Leupold VX-6 on a Lapua?
As already been alluded to, in general, any scope can be fitted to any rifle. However, some rifles are more commonly available with certain brands of scopes. The AI AWM mostly is sold either with an S&B or a Zeiss. So to someone knowledgeable on the subject, the Leupold might seem out of place. Unless, of course, you'd gone to the length of explaining that your shooter had served with some obscure unit that actually buys their AIs that way.


Bullet -- What terms would you use to describe a bullet specifically designed to go clean through a body?
"Solid" or "monolithic." Sometimes "solid monolithic," just to hammer in the point.


The thing about dimensions was really good, this is something I can use in a more practical sense when describing the shooter's thoughts. Someone this long in the business would be measuring things by those standards every waking hour.
The communication that ordinarily occurs between sniper and spotter gives you another opportunity for exposition without being obvious. "Spotter ready." "Shooter ready." Blah, blah, blah. "Send it." It would be normal for your shooter to step through the same sequence of events as an internal checklist, even when working alone.

Should you choose, you also could use the shooter's reliance on the Mil Dot scope to introduce the fact that your semi-supernatural creature can see in the infrared spectrum. Because laser rangefinders are in the infrared. So if your monster can see it, your shooter would be forced to use purely passive measures.


Also the reason I haven't addressed the physical qualities of the target is because it's far too complicated to bring up here. So let's just stick with what happens to a normal person and I'll work from there. =)
That's okay. We'll beat you for it later. ;)
 
DirtMerchant: diverdon: Fred_C_Dobbs: Thanks for your latest replies, I'll take them all into consideration.




To everyone who has contributed: BIG THANKS! I had never expected to get this much feedback and help, and for that I'm extremely grateful.

I will now shift my focus to the writing process of the scene, and I'll try to incorporate as much of your information as I can into the novel. I will keep checking this thread regularly but I might not answer as often as I have up until now.

A few of you have asked me/or hinted interest in my writing and naturally I'm happy. So for those who are interested in how the scene turned out, hit me up with a PM and I'll give you an excerpt when the first draft is done (this might take a while, since I'm now just starting to write it). I'm not allowed to post anything in a public thread for copyright reasons.

I'll also try to convince the publisher to add this site into the credits, but I can't make any promises there.

Huge thanks again everyone,

/A
 
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If it is a sci-fi - everything is possible, but a 2000 yard shot sounds as impressive as 5000, but much less unrealistic to an average reader (even though 2000 is still unusual). If your hero has hours to plan the shot, why care about specific gear. Choose something that sounds good. CheyTac with NightForce scope and computerized ballistic computer with a sat downlink. On a tripod that he actually shoots to the skyscraper roof with a pneumatic gun?
 
I think you need to talk to Mark Walberg about this.

I think this is a perfectly stupid answer, to a stupid question! I guesss this question was post in the right section unless it was moved? Here I am follow my man LeftyJason around after he posted about, do the Moa turrets match the reticle in the the Gen 2 Pst thread. Here you are with obvious search skills, offering words of wisdom. Wow, have we grown!! Considering this poster isn't even around any more. Maybe you should take a look at the date of the original post?

IanHusaberg out