Gunsmithing Help diagnose an ammo issue

[keenedge]

Ran into an interesting problem at the range today, seen it happen to others, never had this happen in my years of shooting.

Bolt stuck on a live round, went forward but wouldn't go fully into battery, also couldn't open it. The round was a Hornady factory 120gr ELD-M, barrel is a Proof 6.5 CM, action is Tikka T3x. This is a new barrel but has about 250 rounds of various factory ammo through it, some like Norma match ammo were a little tight, but everything has run through it fine until now.

Tried a few things but eventually dropped by to my buddy who's a local gunsmith. Good news is he got it--a few taps with mallet and the bolt and round came out. He checked chamber, headspace, everything looks fine, no damage or anything.

Here's the weird thing: the Hornady bullet had scuff marks on it, like it had jammed up against the rifling. He put a caliper on the stuck round, in a few spots diameter went as high as 0.267. For comparison, he pulled out a similar factory Hornady 6.5 CM ELD-M 140gr he had there. It dropped right into my chamber, bolt went closed easily. He took the diameter on that one, greatest diameter was 0.265. We pulled a few more of the 120gr out of my box of ammo and checked, all of them going as high as 0.267, all would again get stuck in the chamber.

Q's:
- Is this simply a case of out-of-spec Hornady ammo, so go back to seller and get a refund?
- Have folks seen this happening a lot with Hornady match ammo, like inconsistency where some lots of it work fine, others don't?

 

[XLR308]

QC issue with the ammo, definitely call Hornady and supply the lot number.

 

[keenedge]

Got hold of Hornady. They were cool about it so far, sending a label to ship the case of 200 back to them. They want to verify and said if the bullets are wrong, they'll make it right.

 

[XLR308]

Got hold of Hornady. They were cool about it so far, sending a label to ship the case of 200 back to them. They want to verify and said if the bullets are wrong, they'll make it right.

They should take good care of you, I think many manufacturers are running flat out trying to keep up but they are fighting a losing battle and QC slips.

 

[keenedge]

Yeah that's interesting. While I was there, gunsmith said they hadn't seen it with Hornady yet, but they've seen it with some other ammo manufacturers, basically poor QC or out of spec issues causing firearms issues that come into their shop. They had the same theory, that ammo manufacturers are under a lot of pressure.

This is weird, because while I've never thought of Hornady as the top of the line ammo, I've always considered them better than average and super reliable. I shoot a lot of Hornady in 5.56, .308, 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 CM, many years, never had a single problem. The rep I talked to sounded sincerely stunned, he said we just don't see stuff like this, but if it's a defect we'll make it right.

 

[3-0-hate]

Hornady probably missed a final swage step or something to get it down to the final diameter.. They will make it right. Good peeps there.

 

[XLR308]

There have been several threads lately about 308win Gold medal match ammo that has long kind of been the gold standard being out of spec and little details with the condition of the bullets.
QC issues can happen to any company especially when your pushing quantity to catch up or meet demand.
Glad you weren't injured or any equipment damaged, if the bullets are oversized that could have created a serious overpressure event.

 

[keenedge]

I forgot to mention in my OP, something else was odd that the gunsmith noticed. He laid my 120gr ELDM round down on his bench parallel to his 140gr ELDM (the one he had already tested and worked fine in my chamber). The 120 was visually a little LONGER than the 140. I'll admit I didn't expect that! He was surprised too. Curious to learn what Hornady finds after they look at the ammo.

 

[atvman400]

Tagged for results from Hornady.
120 longer than a ~15% heavier bullet? Did 147 gr bullets get loaded in a 120gr set up?

 

[PinesAndProjectiles]

Were the 140s just seated a bit deeper?

 

[keenedge]

Tagged for results from Hornady.
120 longer than a ~15% heavier bullet? Did 147 gr bullets get loaded in a 120gr set up?

Yep, exactly. It's all factory Hornady ammo, and I'm shipping the allegedly defective 120's back to them. Hopefully they'll be able to figure out what happened.

 

[aljones_315]

following for results

 

[Disfunctional_Engineer]

With it being a bolt gun that's exceedingly interesting. I'd be curious how the ammo stacks up in OAL for the rounds. It sounds like the seating die length my have been off at some point if the bullets are consistent.

 

[keenedge]

Well it's resolved on my side--Hornady had me send in the ammo and since their own 140's had worked in my rifle at the gunsmith shop without issue--they sent me a case of those to replace the case I sent in. Good on them.

They checked multiple rounds of the ammo I sent in and said they thought it was in spec. So the issue of why those rounds stuck in my chamber remains unsolved. They are obviously thinking it's the chamber on my Proof barrel. But the smith checked headspace and go gauge right in front of me while I was there, it's perfect.

A little stumped...the 'why' on this one remains open. But remember it wasn't just one round, we checked several of the 120's in the box, all of them were sticking in my chamber.

 

[flatlandsurvival]

Headspace checks out and that's great. But, this will not identify a tight/short throat in your chamber. Different bullet profiles will amplify this as you stated factory Norma ammo was tight as well. Something to consider.

 

[keenedge]

Headspace checks out and that's great. But, this will not identify a tight/short throat in your chamber. Different bullet profiles will amplify this as you stated factory Norma ammo was tight as well. Something to consider.

Ok, it makes sense that could be an option. So if that's the issue, maybe the chamber came a little "tight/short" straight from Proof, and needs to be reamed? Not really clear on what next steps are, and why 2 straight gunsmiths--including West Texas Ordnance who did the original work on the rifle--have checked the chamber and thought it was good.

 

[sinister]

But the smith checked headspace and go gauge right in front of me while I was there, it's perfect.

Did he use a Stoney Point or Hornady LNL gage to find exactly when the bullet contacted the leade, or if it fit the chamber for length?

 

[keenedge]

Did he use a Stoney Point or Hornady LNL gage to find exactly when the bullet contacted the leade, or if it fit the chamber for length?

Don't know the brand of his gauges.

 

[mmlj]

Glad to hear the issue was resolved. I like using a Wilson case length gauge for checking factory ammo and reloads. If you have the Hornady overall case length tool, a pulled bullet used in a fired case would not have allowed that bullet to chamber to the same overall length as your factory ammo when measured. I once bought at a gun show a box of Winchester 270 gr. bullets marked 35 caliber. I was pretty sure they never made a 35 caliber bullet in that weight. When I got home I measured the diameter, and it was as expected, .375". Winchester said that couldn't be and wanted the bullets back.

 

[keenedge]

Well it's half resolved, Hornady took care of the ammo side. Now it looks like there's an issue with the rifle. Fortunately it's switchlug so I can easily pull the barrel, send back to Proof or WTO but then the rifle is a paperweight for....probably a long time. I have Clayton chambering me a new 6CM barrel, but that one is also pending. Bummer....

 

[stello1001]

Hornady doesn't like to acknowledge their defective bullets. They just blame it on the end user's barrel.

 

[keenedge]

Well I'll be honest, the thought had occurred to me. I work for a software company that probably most people here use or have used, and even we have a tendency to "blame the other guy's s#%t" as being the problem when people call into our customer service with an issue. Everybody does that to some degree. That said, definitely not saying Hornady did that here, I have no way of knowing that. But I do trust my gunsmith, a straight up guy and professional, he showed me the diameters on the calipers and those bullets were visually LONGER than the 140's he had there. Sure not wild about pulling the barrel and sending it off on some long goose chase....

 

[Powder_Burns]

Maybe slug your bore, I doubt your lands are out of spec simply due to how barrels are rifled, but if it was my rifle/issue I would have pulled a few of the suspect bullets, weighed/measured, and if they seemed to be in spec and the chamber was good I’d slug my bore.

The fact that the bullets were longer than they should be makes me think they were land jamming on you.

 

[keenedge]

The fact that the bullets were longer than they should be makes me think they were land jamming on you.

Yes--that's what we thought in the shop. That, and the scuff marks on the bullets we tried.

 

[Powder_Burns]

Yes--that's what we thought in the shop. That, and the scuff marks on the bullets we tried.

Whats real fun is when you do chamber a round like that then change your mind and eject the round, and the bullet stays lodged in the barrel and dumps 70 grains of powder into your action.

 

[flatlandsurvival]

Will be interested in hearing what Proof comes up with if you send it in. Please keep us posted on future findings/results. I have personally ran across both Ruger and Savage rifles that were short throated with tight bolt closure and pulling projectiles out of the case. I have not ran into a Proof with such issues but no manufacturer is exempt from tolerance issues.

 

[keenedge]

Well to update this thread, sorry it took so long, distracted with work. Short version to summarize:

* Hornady treated me right by taking back the case of bad 120gr ELDM ammo, and working with SG Ammo to have them simply replace it with a case of 140gr ELDM. So good on Hornady, they were great and the interaction with them was all positive.
* The one thing I'm not thrilled with is that Hornady says they rechecked the ammo and find no issue. I'm not in a position now to comment on that with any factual basis, because I didn't KEEP any of the ammo, or take pictures and record measurements--just returned all the ammo to them including the one pulled from my chamber. If something like this happens again, I will next time. In any case, I guess the issue of what was wrong with that case of ammo remains unresolved.
* Today I went to the range and the rifle had no problems with the 140gr, feeding and extracting perfectly, and by the way the rifle LOVES the 140gr, was shooting it like a laser. Also tried some new-to-me Prime Ammo 130gr, if anything, it was even slightly more accurate than the Hornady. Also fed and extracted perfectly. So I think the rifle is all good, I have at least 4 types of factory ammo that shoot extremely accurate in this barrel, and many others that shoot well.

Though I thank Hornady for replacing the ammo, I have to say that I still believe it was an out of spec case of ammo. I understand that their position is that the case of 120gr ELDM was in spec.

 

[atvman400]

It might not be that the ammo was out of spec. It just might off been at the top end of the spec. Everything that is manufactured as a tolerance window. Nothing is perfect. It just might of been a combination of the ammo being at the top end of the tolerance and your chamber being at the low end of the tolerance and them over lapping. You usually design so this never is an issue, but when dealing with multiple suppliers, it could be an issue.

 

[stello1001]

I'm surprised hornady didn't just blame it on you and say it was your barrel.

 

[keenedge]

It might not be that the ammo was out of spec. It just might off been at the top end of the spec. Everything that is manufactured as a tolerance window. Nothing is perfect. It just might of been a combination of the ammo being at the top end of the tolerance and your chamber being at the low end of the tolerance and them over lapping. You usually design so this never is an issue, but when dealing with multiple suppliers, it could be an issue.

That's fair, and yes I think that's totally possible.

I'm surprised hornady didn't just blame it on you and say it was your barrel.

They actually did suggest that they thought it was more likely something to do with the barrel, but they weren't jerks about it, and returned the ammo, so I'm not gonna' complain. They treated me right as a customer. Just bugs me having something unresolved.

 

[Slevin182]

With hindsight being 20/20, measuring OAL and jump would have been #1 for me, then pulling a bullet or two to weigh. I shoot almost exclusively Hornady bullets because I think they perform well for the money. I know that they can make mistakes as well. I was spotting for a friend of mine shooting about 650 yards, and all of a sudden I see his trace go about 6 ft high. After saying he held at the same point of aim, we could barely get his bolt open, and the bolt had to be removed from the action to get the case freed from the bolt face. Whatever happened, this factory round had been either way over-charged, or way under-seated.

 

[Wannashootit]

Was there ever a chamber cast made?
Simple enough to do, and the only way to confirm exactly what you've got for a chamber.

 

[keenedge]

^No. It didn't seem necessary since the only ammo I've ever had this issue with was the single case of Hornady ELDM 120gr. The issue did not repro with the Hornady 140's or Prime 130's I fired on Thursday, nor with any other ammo I've tried to date. I don't believe it's the barrel.

 

[918v]

6.8mm Creedmoor?

But seriously, these bullets use soft lead and thin jackets. If you drop a box of 500 on the ground some are bound to get deformed. If the yahoo feeding the machine is a dumbfuck and feeds the smooshed bullets into the mix, you’ll end up with your predicament.

 

[Ledzep]

.267" is way out. Nobody (that I'm aware of) makes bullets that big even before they swage/final size them. Talking like .2645-.2648 at most in the press before final size. Even FMJ bullets that get blown out more than match bullets are typically less than .0015" over final diameter in the bullet press.

Was the bullet itself longer (120 "longer" than 140) or was the cartridge OAL longer? If the bullet stuck in your barrel and you removed the cartridge via the bolt handle, you may have pulled the bullet partially out of the case in the process (bullet stuck, case pulls away from bullet before the bullet lets go) making the COAL of that cartridge longer than what it normally would be.

The Creedmoors and PRCs are more sensitive than many other cartridges to reamer wear and carbon fouling. The min-spec throats are .0005" over bullet nominal diameter where many others are .001-.003" over bullet diameter, or more. They're essentially "Match" chambers from the get-go. So any little bit of reamer wear will be more likely to cause bullets to rub/stick in the chamber. Same for carbon buildup.