Advanced Marksmanship Help diagnosing these targets?

[TFin04]

(If this type of post isn't allowed and I missed it, my apologies).

I got out today to shoot my new-to-me 700. Rifle details:

308
20"
1 in 12
Millet TRS-1

I am not extremely experienced with precision rifle shooting, but I have dabbled here and there. I had an old Savage in 223 I could shoot MOA with out to about 250yds (furthest I could shoot at the time). I hunt with a muzzleloader and have one that will shoot 1.5moa consistently.

I don't consider myself a good precision rifle shooter by any means (still a beginner), but I am confident in my ability to make decent hits. Today was very frustrating for me.

This is the first time I've shot this rifle so I am wondering what the deal is. I find it interesting that my hits are consistent in relative target placement, but the spread is way too wide. I also find it curious that the cheap Privy shot the 'best.' Don't know if that is ammo related or I was getting more consistent as the day went on.

Breathing? Trigger control? Both? I was carefully squeezing during the respiratory pause, and my trigger manipulation felt good.

Thoughts?

 

[jakermeister]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

your info is a bit broad. how far is the target? shooting position? what type of ammo were you using (match grade or hunting)?

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

first for precision rifle you werent using match ammo..... Prvi 168, Fed 165, and PM 147.....all not conducive to seeing "precision rifle" accuracy. Also by your targets if that is at 100 yds there is quite a bit of vertical dispersion...that could be a couple of things

Breathing is fucked all outta wack or the ammo is terrible.

The Horizontal dispersion which is less is caused from your trigger control, meaning you are pulling the trigger off to one side and not straight back. Also it could be that your NPOA is not correct. Did you happen to get on target with the scope, close your eyes and take a few breaths, then open and where was your reticle? Still on your intended aiming point?

Also all of your shots are to the right of your aiming point? I assume you are a right handed shooter? This would also tell me that you arent squared up with the rifle, meaning that your left shoulder is in front of your right shoulder (this could be another problem as well) you are also probably pulling the trigger back and to the left causing your shots to veer right. I wouldnt say that it was the wind persay just because i assume that this test was done @ 100yds and the winds would have to be pretty decent for the round to veer off target that much at 100 yds. Hope this helps some

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

I also assume that your rifle is a SPS Tactical in the Hogue rubber stock? If so you may be making barrel contact with your stock which is also not conducive to seeing "great" accuracy

 

[King-Kong]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

I would say that you have problem whit breathing or you are recoil shy. But i would check that there is no barrel contact.

Is your ring/base ok? you should check it as well.
Even whit those ammo you should get better results. But buy some match ammo just to be sure.

If your gun is gtg ask a frend to shoot it.
If its still gtg take your video camera out and film yourself while shooting. This might help you if you know the basics. Camera can be very usefull tool.

 

[TFin04]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

Thanks for the input, guys.

The rifle is in a HS Precision stock and is freefloated.
It was originally a 26" gun that was cut and crowned by Kampfield Customs.
Target was at 100 yards.
Shooting from a bench, off a Harris Bipod and a rolled up piece of carpet for a rear bag (I know...). I was loading the bipod and trying to incorporate the fundamentals I have learned.

Shots are all to the right because the optic isn't perfectly zero'd. I was trying to focus on my groups and worry about messing with the optic later.

I bought the rifle second hand from an acquaintance and have seen the groups he shot with his handloads (.75 MOA and sometimes better).

I know the ammo isn't match but I'm sure it is better than 3-4" at 100.

I will work on my NPOA and the other fundamentals next trip. If I can set up a camera, I will.

I'll pick up some FGMM and try again, then all I can blame is myself.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

Your gun could be broken, or, perhaps, you do not know how to shoot. The only thing for sure is the gun was pointed in the direction of bullet impact. One thing though, your groups very likely have nothing to do with breathing control. Nevertheless, you could have a multitude of problems, from inconsistent perspective of aim to inconsisent control of the rifle. You may have an issue with a proper stockweld due to a butt stock comb not high enough to allow for the full weight of your head to rest on the comb. A problem in that arena will inspire vertical groups from both parallax, as well as production of divergent recoil.


At any rate, right now, you are discovering that executing the firing task is not the same as knowing how to shoot. If you must train yourself, first practice dry firing and calling your shots. This will make trouble shooting easier, that's to say, it will give you some clues to the source or sources of your error/s.

 

[deadly0311]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

Sterling if i read you right, you are saying that the 4-6 inches of vertical dispersion arent breathing, what do you suggest it is? Parralax wont throw a shot group like that at 100 yds. Dont take this as a jab at you, i would like to know your perspective on it.

Austin

 

[ker2222]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

targets look familair to many i have soiled.....


vertical dispertion: breathing
horizontal dispertion: trigger control
multiple "groups" within single group: inconsistant cheekweld
pulled right: bad NPOA

I learned that right away.....still haven't fixed them though!!! good luck and your doing it right. shoot, analyize, get help, shoot some more, repeat.....

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Help diagnosing these targets?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deadly0311</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sterling if i read you right, you are saying that the 4-6 inches of vertical dispersion arent breathing, what do you suggest it is? Parralax wont throw a shot group like that at 100 yds. Dont take this as a jab at you, i would like to know your perspective on it.

Austin</div></div>

Remember, both sight alignment and position will produce angular error when not consistent. The error can be massive. In zeroing, I see novice shooters typically produce 3 to 4 inch groups at just 25 meters when angular errors are being made. At distance, these angular errors increase, so no, I'm not surprised to see 4 inches of dispersion at 100 yards. And, breathing is just not likely a problem here. Shooters who know nothing of good shooting, nevertheless, usually will unconsciously shoot during their natural respiratory pause. It's only when someone says watch your breathing that the novice shooter becomes aware of breathing and thereafter screws things up by trying to hold it.

From what I see, the OP does not understand how to make the relationship between himself, the gun, and the ground consistent. Inconsistentcy in stockweld, butt to shoulder, non firing hand, grip, and elbows will produce a divergent angle/arc effect from shot to shot, which simply means that the line of bore at bullet exit and line of bore at rest relationship is not being maintained from shot to shot.

These errors are all probable since the shooter does not have a basis of understanding founded in fact, beginning with recognition that the bullet will always go in the direction the barrel is pointed. These obvious things however are sometimes overlooked when the shooter is deceived or distracted by the scope and bipod. The shooter thinks when the reticle is on the target, and such relationship is seemingly secured by the bipod all is well. The shooter does not consider the target/reticle relationship does not assure recognition for where the barrel is pointed, or that the bipod, being only a partical support, will not support the firing task after the trigger is pulled, unless a technique for control has been learned.

At any rate, the shooter is confused, he's not getting the job done and can't understand it, since what he's read and seen so far has assured him that all that's necessaary to hit where aimed is a big ass scope, a "loaded" bipod, and a piece of rolled up carpet. The thought of marksmanship training has alluded him.

One more thing, unless the OP has an adjustable comb, the scope height may preclude the full weight of the head to be rested on the stock. This issue will undermine consistency, certainly promoting the kind of impacts which the OP is producing. After all the angularity begins at the butt.

Also, since I mentioned the need to make the angle/arc effect consistent through proper contact with the rifle until recoil has subsided, it may be worth noting that in basic marksmanship training, this concept is reduced to mentioning a need to follow-through. Talking or illustrating concepts like angle/arc effects just go over the heads of most folks, they can't grasp it with all the other stuff they need to know.