Help me date my CZ Mauser

[Rookie]

Allow me to ask some questions of the assembled Mauser experts. I have a Czech BRNO factory rifle that I'm trying to gather more info on. It is a M98/22 so it has the 30 inch barrel. Serial number E445, not numbers matching on the bolt which is numbered 2851. The rear sight is graduated to 2000 yards with numbers in Arabic which tells me two things. First, it was exported to either Turkey, Persia or Egypt, and second, it was exported prior to 1928 when the Turks switched to western numbers on the sights. The barrel measures .318 diameter. From my research, it seems that in 1905, Germany switched their military rifles from .318 to .323 diameter, went to a lighter bullet, and increased pressure. My question is, did other Mauser manufacturers switch from .318 to .323 at or around the same time Germany did? The reason I ask is because I'm trying to date this rifle. What other date indicators can I look for?

I removed the stock today and the barrel has the same serial number as the receiver so I assume its the original barrel. On the bottom of the barrel is the number 1 in an opening in the rear sight band. Other than the serial number and the 1, there are no other proof marks on the barrel. Near the muzzle is "98/22 8mm CZWCHO" and then below that is "C.A.1 GEORGIA VT".

On the bottom of the receiver is a circled Z, the numbers 1 and 9, (but not together as in 19. Spaced apart but appear to be on the same line.), and something that resembles "&" or a circle with ears.

There are no external cartouches or serial numbers on the stock which makes me wonder if its been sanded, but on the inside are a couple of numbers. Under the receiver, behind the recoil lug is the number 2. In the barrel channel is the number 8, further is 592, further out is the number 20 but not stamped into the wood. More like typed in black ink. The stock top piece is also marked 592 to match the bottom stock. The rear barrel band has a sling swivel attached. The rear sling swivel is curious, being an elongated piece that attaches to the stock and acts like a hinge. The other end attaches to the sling. I do not have the sling.

Anything you guys can tell me would be great.

 

[Dan M]

The earliest 1898 model CZ rifles were actually assembled from surplus German Gew 98 parts provided as reparations. That rifle was manufactured long after the change to 7,92x57 S patronen... my money says 1923. Germany converted to the S patronen after October 1905. Dr. Storz covers this in depth in "Rifle and Carbine 98".

Any markings stamped above the s/n?

Did you slug the bore and measure the slug? The chamber is what should concern you... the Germans successfully reamed the chambers on Gew 98 rifles chambered for the Gew88 cartridge, and reamed the chambers on Gew 88, Kar 88 and Gew 91 rifles so that the 154 gr S patronen could be fired. Your rifle was produced almost 20 years after chambering for the M88 cartridge was superseded in newly manufactured rifles. Don't sweat it.

PS... look above the serial number for the letter E with a figure and then a two digit number in a straight line. The two digit number is the year.

 

[Rookie]

So you're saying date of manufacture is 1923? How do you know? I didn't slug the barrel, I just used calipers. I have a newer Yugo that measures .323 and this old CZ is smaller.
As far as other markings, the receiver says,
"GESKOSLOVENSKA
ZBROJOVKA
=BRNO="

Figured that was standard stuff on any CZ Mauser but maybe not.

Just found a couple more markings on the receiver, on the barrel-side of the recoil lug. There is a "C1" and the number 5.

 

[Dan M]

Not hard to figure out... 1923 was the most common year

Does your rifle have markings like this over the s/n?

The E Blocks might not have this.

 

[Rookie]

My concern with the .318 bore is that according to the 48th Edition of the Lyman Reloading Manual, American-manufactured ammo is designed for the higher pressured round designed to fire the .323 bullet. Firing that ammo could cause a pressure spike if fired in the old .318 barrel. They also state that their loading data is for the .323 barreled rifles.

 

[Rookie]

Just saw your pic after posting my response. No, my rifle does not have that mark.

 

[Rookie]

Could the 19 on the bottom mean 1919?

 

[Dan M]

They are referring to the Gewehr 1888, and even then it would be an EXTREMELY rare occurrence... there are almost no 100% original Gew 88 rifles in pristine condition.

You really have to slug the bore, you cannot rely on calipers to measure the bore accurately.

The groove diameter is .323" for the Gewehr 98 and the groove diameter for the older M1888 chambered barrels is .321". How else were the Germans able to rechamber all their existing M88 chambered rifles to shoot the new cartridge with out installing new larger bore barrels?

Lyman is practicing CYA... this is very much like the warnings about shooting high pressure .45-70 out of a trap door... not too many trapdoors on the range these days. Also, Lyman probable had that same warming in their load book from the 1940s.

 

[Dan M]

Absolutely not.

Your only options could possibly be 1922, 1923 and 1924 (the only years these were manufactured). Since it is an E block 1922 is out... 1923 or 1924 are the only possibilities, completely eliminating the M88 chambering.

Edit... Depending on the receiver crest, it could be later, but not back to the teens.

 

[Dan M]

One option if you are really concerned is to use US commercially manufactured 8mm ammunition, it is loaded with .321 diameter projectiles.

 

[sandwarrior]

One option if you are really concerned is to use US commercially manufactured 8mm ammunition, it is loaded with .321 diameter projectiles.

No wonder that crap doesn't shoot worth a damn!

Dan M,

On your assessment, the "letter blocks" are different for each entity/country (contract) manufactured for. 98/22's started being manufactured in 1922 and continued until 1929. The biggest Turk contract was in 1927. They were made in 6.5x55, 7x57, 7.8x57, 7.92x57 True Persian Mausers are 98/29's. So, that kind of eliminates them. Most likely Turk as they were the hodgepodge of everything Mauser. They didn't truly standardize until 1938. They used the early .318" bores with the small ring, then used the same barrel on a large ring that was bored for a small ring barrel. It was 1938 that they finally standardized to all their rifles to .323" bores.

Something to remember here is that many Middle-Eastern countries/entities ordered small blocks of Mausers. And remember, the letter blocks start new with each customer. Take DWM for instance. You can find DWM Argentino 1909's with the same letter blocks as DWM Brazilian 1908's.....manufactured in different years.

One way to tell if it's a Turk is if you can see what looks like a half moon stamp on the top/bottom of the bolt knob. Otherwise, get pics up and we can help.

It would not hurt to get a copy of Robert W.D. Ball's book "Mauser Military Rifles Of The World"

 

[Dan M]

Ball's book is quite good... Mausers pretty much dropped off my radar after I decided on narrowing the focus of collecting to M1903 and M1 rifles. I still have 3 Gewehr 98s and a Kar 98az...my DWM 1915 is like new.

The last Mauser book I bought was Storz's volume on the Gew 98 and Kar 98... expensive but worth it just for all the color photos of the various prototype rifles. Most of them were pristine...Damn shame that they fell into what became East Germany and they were demilled by drilling a hole in the chamber.

The .318 bore is a misnomer. The M88 Patrone has a .318 diameter projectile, but groove diameter for the Gewehr 1888 was always .321" The S conversion consisted of reaming the throat, but the original barrels were used. Also, original 154 gr S ammunition did not have a .323 diameter body... just a .323 diameter driving band on a .321 body. Ss ammunition used an actual .323 dia projectile.

Czech replacement Gew 88 barrels found on South American 1888s are notoriously tight bored, so it would not surprise me that they deviated from the specifications on their other contract rifles.

In any event, slug the bore and then measure for the actual diameter for that rifle.

ETA- to try and clarify matters... the Germans changed the land diameter of the M1888 several times during production. The original 1889 (first production) to mid 1890 dimensions were .314 land and .3215 groove. From mid 1890 to mid 1896 the dimensions were changed to .311 land and .3215 groove. From mid 1896 to end of production the Z bore came into production with .311 lands and .323 grooves. Confusing, isn't it. The Z Bore dimensions were carried over to Gewehr 98 production until October 1905.

 

[Rookie]

So back to my question, is there not any way to tell by the markings when this rifle was made?

 

[sandwarrior]

So back to my question, is there not any way to tell by the markings when this rifle was made?

A serial number check using the right reference guide (model, country of destination and letter block) will give the year. That is about it.

 

[Rookie]

I ordered Bell's book today. Will let you guys know what I find out.

 

[Rookie]

I got Ball's book in, and while interesting, doesn't exactly nail the manufacture date. I found one short paragraph on page 112 about the 98/22 but not much else. The 98/22 is also apparently referred to as the 1922 or VZ22. The large table on page 123 shows dates of 1926 and 1927 for rifles that went to Turkey, but no references beyond those. Looks like they are supposed to be well made, and used widely, and in fact still used by the Kurds!

 

[Rookie]

P.S., If anyone needs any info on a pre 1945 Mauser, let me know and I will check Ball's.